What comes after emissions delete and tune?

yahmon said:

That tune in the chart must be from the guy complaining about his dmf shudder in another thread. I have shelved one of those(to much) tunes myself until i get a much heavier clutch in there.

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Actually, that car did not shudder at all. Stock clutch. Most of them don't with that tune.

The post-fix cars are much more prone to shudder than before they were "fixed". How can that be? There's a significant component of the shudder that is caused by the ecu (engine)... and it follows that can be affected by an engine tune. And not just in the sense that it's "too much torque". More like the stock engine calibration can no longer compensate for the phenomenon that causes (or exacerbates) the shudder after the fix. It's not an accident that it happens at the engines torque peak. But it is caused by the engine not the transmission.

There's a component of the shudder that can be related to the clutch, but the threshold for inducing that shudder can be raised WAAAAAY higher with the right engine tune. So I'm NOT saying "it's not the transmission", but the trans is not the only player here.

Also, some cars are more prone than others. Just like some stock ALH slip the clutch with a tune and others don't. But kind of beside my point.

Lowangle said:

Any your same car/different histories example is flawed.

I said my car before the tune and my car after.

For example: let's say I dyno my car and get 120hp. Load the tune and dyno again 10 minutes later and only get 130. That is what I dont want.
However, if I load the tune and get 170, then I will feel I got my money's worth.

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Ah, but you see, if you only got 90 whp @ 2000 RPM and 120 whp @ 4000 RPM and instead got 120 whp @ 2000 RPM and 130 whp @ 4000 RPM, would that not be acceptable? When speaking of power or torque output from an engine, even though you're being hypothetical, you need to understand what the results will or can be. The oomph behind a car isn't just from a peak figure, but more so the area under the curve.

Our tuners are reputable because they have a continued history of repeatedly good work and stand behind it.

Yourbuddysatin said:

Well this is salty.....

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Sorry about that. It just bothers me when someone demands to make an answer that can be complex into something that is simple. Reminds me of people that keep asking a question until they get the answer they want to hear.

It's great that Malone and Kerma checked in on this. Ultimately, the OP will get news he can use to make an informed decision. After he gets his tune, if he doesn't post a pic of the grin on his face, it didn't happen.

Just because you’re a tuner and people on the Internet say you do a good job really does not carry any kind of weight. As do single run graphs.

I can only go by my V10 TDI and though that I can only think of two people who have a proven history with making them run properly. Jeff at Rocket chip is a genius to say the least and Owain at Malone as been kind enough to work with me making the V10tdi stand alone. The guy Kerma sponsoring ripped me off time and money and the work I got back was garbage.

Just my opinion from personal experiences with people who have actually touched my projects.

KERMA said:

Actually, that car did not shudder at all. Stock clutch. Most of them don't with that tune.
The post-fix cars are much more prone to shudder than before they were "fixed". How can that be? There's a significant component of the shudder that is caused by the ecu (engine)... and it follows that can be affected by an engine tune. And not just in the sense that it's "too much torque". More like the stock engine calibration can no longer compensate for the phenomenon that causes (or exacerbates) the shudder after the fix. It's not an accident that it happens at the engines torque peak. But it is caused by the engine not the transmission.
There's a component of the shudder that can be related to the clutch, but the threshold for inducing that shudder can be raised WAAAAAY higher with the right engine tune. So I'm NOT saying "it's not the transmission", but the trans is not the only player here.
Also, some cars are more prone than others. Just like some stock ALH slip the clutch with a tune and others don't. But kind of beside my point.

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There is a thread going on here with one of your tunes and the shudder, maybe read up on it. These engines will push more than the clutch can handle. pretty sure that rattle has something to do with the dual mass flywheel and/or clutch. I will report back after i do the clutch change and install my "shudder" tune

yahmon said:

There is a thread going on here with one of your tunes and the shudder, maybe read up on it. These engines will push more than the clutch can handle. pretty sure that rattle has something to do with the dual mass flywheel and/or clutch. I will report back after i do the clutch change and install my "shudder" tune

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you mean the one where I replied HERE

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5484579&postcount=38

KERMA said:

you mean the one where I replied HERE
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5484579&postcount=38

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I responded to your PM. I really don’t work with vendors as I like to figure out what I’m doing on my own. I had the unfortunate opportunity to work with someone that you sponsored. I don’t know if it’s a personal connection you have or just a by chance relationship. And I really don’t know anything about you or your business.

I can say with 100% certainty Jeff from Rocket Chip is a true genius. I just began to work with Malone and only have positive things to say.

A guarantee is only as good as the source. Jeff showed me a overlap of tables on a bad tune I had in my car and what he put in my car. Having basic tuning experience from the late 80’s I knew what I was looking at and saw the problem with the bad tune and how it could damage the turbo or engine. A peak number is worthless if the tune is bad in the other parameters and causes wear or drivability issues. Peak number are a sales tactic and the true tuners work the entire platform, not just increasing boost and fuel at 70% throttle and above. This is my personal experience having close to 25 years experience with tuned ecu’s from back in the day of the DFI infinity piggy back ecu’s to the various tunes I have had over the years. Please feel free to make your own options, just as these are mine...

Like a salt mine in here.....

KERMA said:

ok bro.
I guess you win.
10pm and still half a dozen tunes to send out
maybe you can help me get some sleep by repeating those lies

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I’m not looking for a win, I don’t troll the internet or really go on forums. As you can see that I rarely go on message boards.

I don’t know how you can sleep with what is said about the way you do business.
https://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/kermatdi-tooele-utah-c432863.html
I hope what is said is not true as i am a victim of someone you sponsor for the tune of 20k for $3500 worth of poor quality work.

Pointing to lies someone posted online just makes you the liar.

No accounting for brains anymore I guess.

Tuning and full emissions delete VS tuning and cr170

All tuning equal, which will yield greater results on a 2012?
This is full emissions removed with tuning compared to tuning and a cr170 stock emissions

Why don't you ask your intended tuner this stuff. They will know better than anyone else. I highly doubt anyone has done both and can compare.

Is this the wrong forum for these type of questions? Should I limit my questions to wheels and neon lights?

On stock emissions with a custom cast manifold using a turbo that's slightly larger than the cr170
compressor: +4.1mm inducer, +8.5 exducer
turbine: + 2mm exducer

drive pressures became an issue by about 185-190whp on our dyno (stock turbo making around 160 w low mileage dpf). Top end was totally different though.

CR140 and CR170 are very similarly sized, 170 drops a couple turbine blades and adds a few mm to the compressor side inducer.

Wouldn't make a ton of sense to remove a perfectly good turbo for a better one only to constrict it to the point it had little benefit. Most delete first, then upgrade the turbo later if they want more. If emissions are a concern I'd keep the stock turbo until you have problems with it.

Lowangle said:

Is this the wrong forum for these type of questions? Should I limit my questions to wheels and neon lights?

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You are asking a highly technical comparative question that is more than likely best answered by those who really know these things. The average person generally has only experience with one and not the other. A good tuner such as from Malone (for example from the post here) will have experience with all of this and be better able to answer questions like this. It costs big money to go down either path and most don't do both.

Lowangle said:

Is this the wrong forum for these type of questions? Should I limit my questions to wheels and neon lights?

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I think you should limit the threads you start about almost the same subjects. Tdiclub is a very informative forum if you go about it the right way and do your own research before asking a public forum where a tuner could answer way better than any of us.

Lowangle said:

All tuning equal, which will yield greater results on a 2012?
This is full emissions removed with tuning compared to tuning and a cr170 stock emissions

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depends on the tuning provider.

There are negligible or nonexistent gains from "deleting". The gains are in the tune. Any power difference deleted or not is related to marketing and revenue generation through upselling (gotta charge more for higher "stage" bro).

You know Kerma, initially I was put off by the price of your modified cr170/tune's price but now that I have gotten quotes for the labor needed to remove the emissions, it washes out almost evenly.

And if the gainz are negligible, then it saves me the time it would take to remove said parts. It is sad though, my last turbo car was an srt4 and it was much more mod friendly than this.

You can make 220-250bhp on these very easily with bolt ons and towards 300 with injectors and a cp3 pump.

Look into the European builds, darksides made around 500hp from these motors on spray and there's a bunch of cars making 300+, DS is hitting 150mph in the 1/4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvjOhAxMMo

I can guarantee none of them have stock DPFs

Hi Malone.

In your opinion, what will make the most power?

1. Full bolt on emission delet with tune

Or

2. Modified CR170, stock emissions and tune?

Lowangle said:

In your opinion, what will make the most power?

1. Full bolt on emission delet with tune

Or

2. Modified CR170, stock emissions and tune?

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The truthful answer is:

depends on who does the tuning.

But let's see what gets posted.

KERMA said:

The truthful answer is:
depends on who does the tuning.
But let's see what gets posted.

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Slanderous!

Firstly, I know I've been asking a lot of questions and some ppl have suggested I ask the tuners in private. I think that defeats the purpose of a public forum where claims are backed up or contested by real owners.

What comes after full emissions delete and tune? I know clutch. I have a 2012 tdi.

MK6 with a stock turbo probably won't need a clutch post delete and tune.

A bigger turbo, should limit lower rpm tq or upgrade clutch as well. stock injectors are good for around 240bhp

I’m curious about this as well in my case I have the DSG. What would be the next step for more hp

Lowangle said:

Firstly, I know I've been asking a lot of questions and some ppl have suggested I ask the tuners in private. I think that defeats the purpose of a public forum where claims are backed up or contested by real owners.
What comes after full emissions delete and tune? I know clutch. I have a 2012 tdi.

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No one suggested you do it in private, only that they would probably be the ones with the answers you seek. You could then post the results you got from them and ask opinions with some factual information, about which you should choose to do.

Why bother lightflyer1... clearly dosent care what we say on the forums but wants our input...oxymoron much???

I’m interested in this subject as well! I’m running KermaTDI tune with stock emissions at the moment but am looking at a cp3 upgrade and possibly the KermaTDI cr170 setup .......but am always open to other opinions.

Piranhafreak said:

I’m curious about this as well in my case I have the DSG. What would be the next step for more hp

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Just as lighflyer said to contact your tuner they are the one who is making the changes to your car.