NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

bthor · Jan 11, 2013

76K brake fluid change under warrenty

Do enlighten.

tdiatlast · Jan 12, 2013

gulfcoastguy said:
Within a mile after filling up at the same station she allways filled up at it lost power, a dash board light started flashing, and it died just as it got on a 4 mile long bridge. That's all I know by listening to a co worker about his wife's cousin's wife.

I think it's dangerous to post anything that was related 3rd-hand. Critical details about the failure can get confused in the re-telling. Sadly, we have enough first-hand failures reported here, and even then, the details can get distorted.

Also, the terminology IS confusing, as "grenaded", "exploded", "took a dump", etc. etc. aren't very useful terms when we're all trying to analyze the failures. Why can't we just say "failed", followed by a description of HOW it failed?

V-Rod · Jan 12, 2013

Second Turbo said:
DasTeknoViking: > Find a gasser Jetta and do your own swap, called a BKD...

I'm not equipped to do that. If I were, I'd have already put a 5-speed in my ALH and called it good. The regional guy who does this sort of work doesn't do the hunter-gatherer part (finding donor parts), and I don't have the time.

Meanwhile, back at the thread topic, I was just looking at the 2012-11 letter VW sent to NHTSA. Here's an interesting section, from page 30:
"827 diesel fuel samples have been acquired throughout the continental U.S.

In respect to viscosity, 203 samples were out of ASTM specification (below 1.9 cSt), 186 of those were below the HPFP’s nominal threshold of 1.5 cSt. Here the HPFP may not have been properly lubricated.

59 samples were detected with lower lubricity (greater HFRR/WSD value) than required. 22 of them exceeded the HPFP’s nominal tolerance of 570μm and may have caused increased wear.

4 samples were found to contain increased amounts of water more than 1.5 % / 1.8% / 2.5 % and one sample exceeding 10% of water, which was not detected in the fuel station and random vehicle surveys. Viscosity and lubricity are within specification, but water could cause rust and corrosion in the HPFP and damage the pump.

79 samples contained more than 5% biodiesel, 20 of those exceeded 10%. Biodiesel itself does not damage the HPFP, however, collapsed/deteriorated/aged biodiesel can cause deposits inside the HPFP and clog filters, interrupting the lubrication and leading to failure.

252 samples showed a flashpoint below ASTM specification, but this has no direct impact to the HPFP’s durability and may just be seen as an indicator for possible gasoline content."

Yes, US diesel, at the station pump, is frequently way out of spec and/or contaminated. What's unsaid, of course, is that TDIs prior to the CRs had, and still have, no problem running on this bilge.

The CR situation appears to be due to a perfect storm of:
a. tighter requirements on vehicles, compounded by
b. a market roll to ULSD, which included
c. having to add lubricity agent at the terminal, plus
d. some states mandating biodiesel, sometimes more than 5%
VW and Botch designed to the ASTM spec, and not the US reality.
4 years later, the problem still festers.

I have yet to hear of a CR Diesel from Ford, Chevy, Dodge, John Deere, CaseIH, Cummins HD, Detroit, have the same problem that VW is having with there fuel pumps.

bhtooefr · Jan 12, 2013

The 2011+ Duramaxes and PowerStrokes are doing it too, I've heard.

Because they're running the same pump family as VW.

tdiatlast · Jan 12, 2013

TDI2000Zim said:
When you say, BLEW, did it actually explode?

I want to know, because the HPFP in my car was replaced yesterday, and it never blew up to begin with (and since the fuel wasn't purged, contamination is not an issue... yet).

Yes, I'm sticking my nose into this one. From reading TDI2000Zim's posts about his "HPFP failure", I'd like to offer that the jury is still out re: whether or not it was an HPFP failure. YES, he has an invoice that shows the HPFP was replaced, BUT, the circumstances surrounding the replacement are sketchy: for example, they didn't drain his fuel tank, it doesn't appear any lines were replaced/flushed, no inspection of the lift pump, etc. etc. In other words, this failure doesn't sound anything like the catastrophic failures in this thread. They simply replaced a "failed" HPFP.
IMHO, it's too early to include this Passat HPFP "replacement" in this thread about HPFP's that had internal shredding as their failures.

thepirate · Jan 12, 2013

BTHOR, found a note in one of the owners manuals about time related items covered under the carefree maintenence program. Brake fluid change is at 3 yrs. regardless of mileage. A smaller secondary manual for Maintenence. Figured I better get it done and I'm just back from haiving it done. No charge.....

TexasZeus · Jan 12, 2013

Blackheart said:
The descriptive terms are hyperbole.

What happens is that metal shavings come off the failing parts, and are scattered throughout the fuel system, clogging the injectors. When not enough fuel is being delivered, the engine stops. There is no actual explosion taking place.

Would the metal shavings be attracted to a rare earth magnet and if so, could a fuel line made of these magnets be incorporated inline before the injectors?

JSWTDI09 · Jan 12, 2013

TexasZeus said:
Would the metal shavings be attracted to a rare earth magnet and if so, could a fuel line made of these magnets be incorporated inline before the injectors?

Parts of the HPFP are steel (ferrous), but parts of it are aluminum. The aluminum bits will not be attracted to magnets, so this would be only partially effective (at best). This idea has been brought up before and dismissed as non-effective. There are several threads here about the use of filters to limit damage, which would probably be more effective.

Have Fun!

Don

scdevon · Jan 13, 2013

V-Rod said:
I have yet to hear of a CR Diesel from Ford, Chevy, Dodge, John Deere, CaseIH, Cummins HD, Detroit, have the same problem that VW is having with there fuel pumps.

Do a Google search for "Ford HPFP failures". The CP4's are failing on Fords as well as other brands. Ford has particularly bad problems. CP3's on Dodge Cummins seem to have a better track record. To make matters worse, Ford is (or was) denying warranty claims on the pumps claiming that "contaminated fuel" is causing them to fail.

You won't find many heavy equipment failures due to the fact that commercial duty engines tend to use engine oil lubricated parts to generate injection pressures and not fuel lubricated parts. (Huge difference). I've also heard that some heavy equipment manufacturers require lubricity additives for remanufactured pumps in order for the parts warranty to stay in effect.

Charrigan · Jan 13, 2013

Ford is also denying fuel system replacement with any amount of bio in it. Even though the truck says b20 on the side.

scdevon said:
Do a Google search for "Ford HPFP failures". The CP4's are failing on Fords as well as other brands. Ford has particularly bad problems. CP3's on Dodge Cummins seem to have a better track record. To make matters worse, Ford is (or was) denying warranty claims on the pumps claiming that "contaminated fuel" is causing them to fail.
You won't find many heavy equipment failures due to the fact that commercial duty engines tend to use engine oil lubricated parts to generate injection pressures and not fuel lubricated parts. (Huge difference). I've also heard that some heavy equipment manufacturers require lubricity additives for remanufactured pumps in order for the parts warranty to stay in effect.

clyde · Jan 13, 2013

In post 4858, Luked said "All pumps should have the phone number of whomever the local regular is."

What's a "local regular"? Could you possibly have meant "regulator"?

If not regulator, what?

scdevon · Jan 13, 2013

Charrigan said:
Ford is also denying fuel system replacement with any amount of bio in it. Even though the truck says b20 on the side.

I think Bio is a mixed bag. Yes it increases lubricity, but Bio and water contamination seem to go hand in hand. I've seen pictures of pitted aluminum bores in CP4 pumps. Something has to be corroding those bores that have pitting.

I think PS "white bottle" would be a terrific idea even with Bio blends.

luked · Jan 13, 2013

clyde said:
In post 4858, Luked said "All pumps should have the phone number of whomever the local regular is."

What's a "local regular"? Could you possibly have meant "regulator"?

If not regulator, what?

glad the internet exists to correct autocorrect mistakes

DPM · Jan 13, 2013

looked like a sensible question to me.

kjclow · Jan 14, 2013

Ok, so it doesn't appear to be related to the diesel engine, but maybe thsi will help push the efforts through NHTSA. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/12/volkswagen-brazil-idUSL1E9CC00420130112

bhtooefr · Jan 15, 2013

Doubtful. It's in a country with very different laws on how these things work, clearly (NHTSA doesn't have the power to even do some of that), on a completely unrelated problem.

mack42b · Jan 15, 2013

scdevon said:
I think Bio is a mixed bag. Yes it increases lubricity, but Bio and water contamination seem to go hand in hand. I've seen pictures of pitted aluminum bores in CP4 pumps. Something has to be corroding those bores that have pitting.

Another problem besides water with bio is PH..... acidic= ferris metal corosion and basic= non-ferris metal corrision when water is present in the fuel.

nicklockard · Jan 16, 2013

Biodiesel meeting specifications is pH neutral or very close to it.

jerryfreak · Jan 18, 2013

mack42b said:
scdevon said:

I think Bio is a mixed bag. Yes it increases lubricity, but Bio and water contamination seem to go hand in hand. I've seen pictures of pitted aluminum bores in CP4 pumps. Something has to be corroding those bores that have pitting.

Another problem besides water with bio is PH..... acidic= ferris metal corosion and basic= non-ferris metal corrision when water is present in the fuel.

Click to expand...

properly stored ASTM biodiesel has none of these issues.

people putting homebrew slop and year old cloudy water saturated biodiesel in their cars get what they deserve, imo.

Second Turbo · Jan 19, 2013

TDI: formerly robust, now brittle

> ... people putting homebrew slop and year old cloudy water saturated biodiesel in their cars get what they deserve, imo.

Prior to the CR (and its amazing Botch CP4 pump), using or switching to B100, of any quality, raised only moderate driveability and winterization concerns. There was no material risk of total fuel system self-destruct.

When the CRs were launched, the initial BD chatter was why VW had set a limit of B5, and a (now dismissed) hypothetical concern about engine oil dilution. One now wonders if VW already knew then how fragile the CP4 really was.

US diesel fuel has always been bilge, and TDIs up through the PD handled it. While the TDI was out of the US market (2007-2008), during the EPA Tier II rollover, the fuel actually got worse (because the terminals could now screw up the lubricity agent). The TDI returned in 2009, with a weak pump:
perfect storm - now in its 4th year.

bhtooefr · Jan 20, 2013

Well, to be fair, oil dilution actually is the biggest concern - if it's properly stored quality product, I wouldn't really be worried about the pump.

And VW has always had a limit of B5, even back on the 1Zs and AHUs (actually, I think those may have been B0, and then in the ALH or BEW era, they said everything was B5 max).

(That said, I think the best design for a TDI for the US market fuel is a five-injector four-cylinder PD. PDs use crankcase oil lubricated high pressure elements, and a fifth injector avoids oil dilution for regeneration.)

gulfcoastguy · Jan 21, 2013

Today I heard a lady say that her TDI Toureg HPFP blew up....twice! At the time she was around Slidel LA. They pulled a fuel sample both times and didn't find contamination. The second time she traded it in on a gas JSW. I was at the dealer's service entrance to get my 6 week courtesy check.

Softrockrenegade · Jan 21, 2013

Guess the smell test failed .....

Charrigan · Jan 22, 2013

I have a regular customer that has a treg tdi and he has had 2 pump failures and more recently a urea system failure. The whole system crystallized and had to be replaced. Both pumps were covered under warranty but vw refused to do anything with the urea system. It took him 3 weeks to get them to cover 1/3 of the repair.

After all that he said he will keep driving it since he loves the vehicle. I would have switched to merc or BMW after all that.

Dozenspeed · Jan 26, 2013

I didn't know where best to post this, but maybe there is some relevance or interest here.....it's about NHSTA skimming social media for their investigations.....

http://blog.gasbuddy.com/posts/NHTS...r-intel-on-auto-defects/1715-529532-1583.aspx

pknopp · Jan 26, 2013

Just an excuse for them to be checking out everyone's cat pics if you ask me.

Lightflyer1 · Jan 26, 2013

Sounds like an excellent idea to me, depending on how the data gathered is interpreted and used. An internet search is an excellent first step when doing "anything" now days.

Thunderstruck · Jan 26, 2013

Your tax dollars hard at work. Wait until they find this web site.

HercNav · Jan 26, 2013

So does anybody know if this bosch fuel pump is used outside the North American market and what (if any) the failure rate is? The European fuel standard has better lubricity...curious.

bhtooefr · Jan 26, 2013

It's used on most 4-cylinder European diesel engines produced today.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Well-known member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor

Top Post Dawg

Member

Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor

Well-known member

Torque Dorque

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Well-known member

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor