NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Diesl · May 30, 2013

According to that VW NHTSA filing that Darrell linked above, the failure rate is 2.7 per thousand total, and about 1.5/1000 (might remember the number wrong, but thereabouts) of that due to the high pressure fuel pump, with most of that due to an initial bad batch of high pressure fuel pumps.

For the later cases, the filing claims that only in 6 out of 49 cases investigated there was no gasoline (or an insignificant amount) found. In 2 out of the 49 cases the dealer had introduced the fuel. 43 had on average 8% gasoline in the fuel. They state that 1% gasoline has been found to be enough to cause failure!! They also state that beginning of model year 2010, and again sometime late-2010 new surface treatments for the highly loaded parts in the high pressure fuel pump were introduced.

kjclow · May 30, 2013

03_01_TDI said:
The failures are due to misfuel and not standard diesel fuel quality.

Yes the pre-cr could handle gasoline better than the cr. and perhaps the cr could be more durable to handle gasoline. But for most this is a non-issue.

Some failures were due to poeple putting gasoline into the tank (documented). Other failures were due to substandard diesel coming out of the pump (also documented with failures at Shell stations in Miami). There may have been water or gasoline contamination in the storage tank. Then there are some failures that just happened. Even with the fueling adapter, those last type of failures will probably still happen but hopefully they will be extremely few.

PressEnter[] · May 30, 2013

^^ All of that's why it's a risk I'm willing to take, but it seems a bit harsh to flat out accuse everyone with a failure of misfueling.

And I am saving all my fuel receipts, just in case.

03_01_TDI · May 30, 2013

PressEnter[] said:
All of them? Have you read through the list of HPFP failures here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854
Unless they are lying, there seem to be a fair number of failures for unknown reasons.

The owner does not know what fuel was placed in the tank prior to them. Just one partial tank of gasoline/Ethanols by the dealership would set in motion the eventual failure. Also factor in the unknown issue of diesel tanker contamination with gasoline/ethanols.

Ethanol is also an issue as a partial tank of gas may not be as terrible as a partial tank of e-10. Ethanol mixtures is probably the worst case scenario for any cr.

To be clear the facts of the report only detail what fuel was in the tank at the time of failure. The reports do not detail what fuel was used PRIOR. The misfuel 2 tanks ago or 2 years ago could have set into motion the eventual failure.

tditom · May 30, 2013

03_01_TDI said:
...To be clear the facts of the report only detail what fuel was in the tank at the time of failure. The reports do not detail what fuel was used PRIOR. The misfuel 2 tanks ago or 2 years ago could have set into motion the eventual failure.

This is worth repeating.

PressEnter[] · May 30, 2013

I don't doubt that could be the case, but I'd like to see some evidence that a partial misfuel at the dealer can go unnoticed, then have consequences years later.

twopassats-one-TDI · May 30, 2013

PressEnter[] said:
^^ All of that's why it's a risk I'm willing to take, but it seems a bit harsh to flat out accuse everyone with a failure of misfueling.
And I am saving all my fuel receipts, just in case.

I'm doing exactly the same thing with my new Golf Wagon TDI.
Currently on my third tank; one dealer fill-up on delivery day an two fill-ups by me at Shell here in Toronto. (same station both times). But yes, keeping all receipts and a spread sheet showing all items in the transaction. Don't want to take any chances.
When I picked up the car I asked my sales guy if he was sure that they filled it up with diesel and he looked at me like I was being a smart ass. I said I just wanted to make sure.
In any event it is kinda scary moving forward but hopefully documenting everything with mileage records may, I repeat "may", come in handy at some point.

bhtooefr · May 30, 2013

Anyone got about $25k lying around?

You could buy me a new 2013 Golf (I'll take a 2-door with a 6-speed in Blue Graphite Metallic, with monster mats, if I'm getting a free Mk6), I could intentionally top it off with a couple gallons of gas for the first tank, and then run it on a strict diet of B5 for a few years, and I'll report back.

03_01_TDI · May 30, 2013

PressEnter[] said:
I don't doubt that could be the case, but I'd like to see some evidence that a partial misfuel at the dealer can go unnoticed, then have consequences years later.

43 of 49 reported cases had 8% gasoline in the tanks.

I would assume that 2-6% gasoline would not be as damaging at 8%.

PressEnter[] · May 30, 2013

Well, the '13's have the idiot guard, so even the most brain dead employee would have a tough time topping with RUG. And if they tried, you would probably smell it from the spill. But I am curious if that's the case with the earlier models...and I haven't seen anything to suggest one way or the other.

PressEnter[] · May 30, 2013

03_01_TDI said:
43 of 49 reported cases had 8% gasoline in the tanks.
I would assume that 2-6% gasoline would not be as damaging at 8%.

Which clearly indicates it did NOT happen at the dealer, correct? Unless we're talking about the first tank of fuel, and most of the failures reported were here on TDI club were out of warranty.

bhtooefr · May 30, 2013

8% gasoline could easily happen from a tanker mix-up, though.

03_01_TDI · May 30, 2013

PressEnter[] said:
Which clearly indicates it did NOT happen at the dealer, correct? Unless we're talking about the first tank of fuel, and most of the failures reported were here on TDI club were out of warranty.

Not to does not indicate either direction about what previous fuel tanks had or did not have. All it reports is what was in the tank at the time of failure.

At any point prior to the fuel tank could have been filled or topped off with contaminated fuel or gasoline.

With the failures being about 1% I would guess that's in line with dealerships screwup ratio. Or tanker supply issues.

PressEnter[] · May 30, 2013

Do you think so? To me that sounds like an epic disaster, but I guess I wouldn't know how stations usually handle that sort of thing.

edit - in reply to bhtooefr

Anyway, no answers it seems. I'm just going to keep my eyes open.

bhtooefr · May 30, 2013

And, an epic disaster adequately describes US diesel fuel quality. (Hell, our gasoline is pretty crap, too.)

Meanwhile, on an IDI, the VE pumps were lightly stressed enough that VW allowed G30 in an emergency (I sure wouldn't do it, and even the TDIs stressed them hard enough that that wasn't OK, but it was allowed back in the 1980s).

Diesl · May 30, 2013

03_01_TDI said:
43 of 49 reported cases had 8% gasoline in the tanks.

I would assume that 2-6% gasoline would not be as damaging at 8%.

The average over those 43 cases was 8.x%. Some could have been very high, some maybe as low as 1%.

VW claims (in the document linked by Darrell) that external tests (by Bosch? not clear) showed that as low as 1% gasoline can cause problems.

TDIMeister · May 30, 2013

I wonder if this is an HPFP issue rather than transmission as the article, VW Australia and affected owners presume:
http://m.smh.com.au/drive/motor-news/death-prompts-vw-owners-to-speak-out-20130530-2nexi.html

Diesl · May 30, 2013

03_01_TDI said:
With the failures being about 1% I would guess that's in line with dealerships screwup ratio. Or tanker supply issues.

Regarding the 1%:
Something as large as 1% would be a pretty bad risk. Somebody should extract the numbers from that link again, but it was like a total of 257 reported cases of car/engine failures out of about 100,000 2009+2010 vehicles (Jetta, Golf, Audi A3), and then only a fraction of that due to the high pressure fuel pump, and then again most of those (always according to VW) due to bad pumps in the first month of model year 2009 production. So the real remaining risk would be more in the per mille region (1 out of 1000 chance, or thereabouts).

Regarding the source of contamination:
If one can believe VW, the remaining risk (after accounting for the initial bad batch of pumps) is really mostly related to gasoline contamination. Now what we as drivers can do about that is not so clear. 1% contamination as an already critical level seems awfully low.

South Coast Guy · May 30, 2013

If low lubricity of diesel fuel in the US is the cause; why aren't we seeing more failures? And wouldn't the rate of failures increase with time? It seems to me that VW's action would almost entirely eliminate accidental contamination.

kjclow · May 30, 2013

TDIMeister said:
I wonder if this is an HPFP issue rather than transmission as the article, VW Australia and affected owners presume:
http://m.smh.com.au/drive/motor-news/death-prompts-vw-owners-to-speak-out-20130530-2nexi.html

I wonder if this is related to the dsg issues in China? Except that the woman that died was driving a manual. Doesn't say if it was petrol or diesel though.

pknopp · May 30, 2013

The pump could have been built more robust and some would still fail. It's inevitable. Should have VW paid more attention to such an important piece? Absolutely.

The amount of non fuel related failures would pretty much not be an issue if it wasn't for the costs VW threw around to fix a vehicle when one does fail.

10 years from now people will be picking these cars up, repair them in their garages for >2k and then drive them for thousands of more miles.

Does that make those who spent 25K for a new car feel better? No.

kjclow · May 30, 2013

pknopp said:
The pump could have been built more robust and some would still fail. It's inevitable. Should have VW paid more attention to such an important piece? Absolutely.

The amount of non fuel related failures would pretty much not be an issue if it wasn't for the costs VW threw around to fix a vehicle when one does fail.

10 years from now people will be picking these cars up, repair them in their garages for >2k and then drive them for thousands of more miles.

Does that make those who spent 25K for a new car feel better? No.

Well, yes in a way it does. If I can assume that the cost of the repair gets down to the same range as a timing belt, then it becomes an acceptable maintenance item.

TDI2000Zim · May 31, 2013

kjclow said:
Well, yes in a way it does. If I can assume that the cost of the repair gets down to the same range as a timing belt, then it becomes an acceptable maintenance item.

$8K HPFP replacement vs $1K Timing Belt replacement.

That is a huge price markdown.

JBell · May 31, 2013

Wonder what the cost to replace it before it fails would be? If it's one of those things like a water pump on a Honda (which is typically replaced every timing belt), I wonder if there would be value added to replacing the HPFP every time the timing belt is replaced?

Lightflyer1 · May 31, 2013

I am planning on using 2microns 2 products when they come out to limit damage/cost should the worst happen (Pure flow and Contain flow).

mysql · May 31, 2013

Philth said:
Wonder what the cost to replace it before it fails would be? If it's one of those things like a water pump on a Honda (which is typically replaced every timing belt), I wonder if there would be value added to replacing the HPFP every time the timing belt is replaced?

I don't think a HPFP replacement interval will help for the following reasons:

1. The replacement pump has the same design flaws.

2. We have seen failures at every level, from under 1k miles to 20, 30, 40, 60k miles and so on. Your replacement pump might fail shortly after being installed. There's no guarantee of anything.

3. If the failure is a result of bad diesel, that could happen with your new pump just as easily as the old.

4. If the failure is a result of the roller moving out of place (mechanical failure) that could also happen at any time, new or old pump.

mysql · May 31, 2013

TDI2000Zim said:
$8K HPFP replacement vs $1K Timing Belt replacement.

That is a huge price markdown.

Well.... 6k for parts from a dealership. 2k labor also from a dealership. I'm sure it can be marked down and installed elsewhere. I didn't price out the parts, but with labor it seems like the 8k could be brought down to the 4-5k range. Still not anywhere near acceptable.

pknopp · May 31, 2013

TDI2000Zim said:
$8K HPFP replacement vs $1K Timing Belt replacement.

That is a huge price markdown.

Why would you spend $8k to repair one? Are you that gullible?

pknopp · May 31, 2013

mysql said:
Well.... 6k for parts from a dealership. 2k labor also from a dealership. I'm sure it can be marked down and installed elsewhere. I didn't price out the parts, but with labor it seems like the 8k could be brought down to the 4-5k range. Still not anywhere near acceptable.

Pumps are now under $1k. Yes, there are other expenses but an independant shop should be able to do these now for less than 4-5K.

Still a good chunk of money but I have no idea why people still want to throw around the $8k figure.

Dealerships can quote $100 for an oil change and it should be done every 5000 miles but I am certainly not going to use that argument to complain about the costs of maintenance.

lynnejohn · May 31, 2013

pknopp said:
Pumps are now under $1k. Yes, there are other expenses but an independant shop should be able to do these now for less than 4-5K.

Still a good chunk of money but I have no idea why people still want to throw around the $8k figure.

Dealerships can quote $100 for an oil change and it should be done every 5000 miles but I am certainly not going to use that argument to complain about the costs of maintenance.

I think the 8K number is a good worst case number. Finding a good independent Diesel mechanic in the North East means you would be very lucky if they are closer than an hour. There are the GURU's here of which I have used a couple, but there is usually a line waiting for them. So yes the number is definitely below the 8K if you do not use a dealer, but don't count out the cost of car rentals and time getting to/from your trusted choice.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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