17/22 tune Problems Flutter, bark on BEW STILL!

hiepriest

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Feb 1, 2011
Location
dayton
TDI
2002 Golf, 2005 Golf
I installed a 17/22 turbo on a BEW about 15k ago. Ever since then I have been battling with this overboosting/ barking/ flutter issue. It drives me crazy and I can’t seem to beat it. To me it seems like a tune issue and I don’t know why mine would be different than any of the other cars. I’ve been in touch with Jeff on this both driving to his house and waiting 16 hours for his advise at Jon’s in St Mary’s OH (very nice people, bty). We’ve been thru all the sensors either checking or swaping them. Adjust the rod till I’m blue in the face. Verified that the request matched the actual. Put in stock tunes you name it. Good lift pump and fuel delivery. Been thru the different smart actuators which includes flipping the board in it and swaping the wires in the harness so it reads 100% at idle and not 0% or vise versa (that was supposed to be the silver bullet but wasn’t). I’ve also been in touch with ID who I got the parts thru to no avail. About a year ago I got busy at work and said screw it and gave up, but I’m back on it again.

Basically there is a narrow boost window in which the car will operate without going into limp mode or throwing a CEL. When I’m on the one side of that window the car runs like a champ but is almost undriveable in 4th and 5th gear without major flutter. On the opposite side of the window the car is laggy, smokes a lot, but very drivable in the higher gears (only slight flutter) but boost doesn’t come up quick enough in 5th to match the request and it throws it into limp. To me the perfect fix would be to have the car fun a different boost map in 4th and 5th gears because it just boosts to darn much. Everywhere else it’s basically fine. I’ve even debated putting a micro switch on the trans so that when it hit’s 4th and 5th it runs the N75 signal thru a resistor lessening the boost in those gears… that’s the best I could come up with. Even at that though it would still do it. Love the turbo but hate it at the same time. Did some research and saw some other people saying that they all do that some (flutter that is) and that it was kinda inherent to having a bigger compressor. I think that’s bs. Thinking about trading mine in for just a VNT-17 so I can get some drivability back. Any words of advise? Anyone? I'd like to give that turbo a good name but instead I just find myself calling it names
 

ctnatureboy

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May 4, 2011
Location
Suffield, CT
TDI
mk7 Golf R 6MT
I was through the same wringer on my VNT-17, even to the point of flipping boards and such. I'll bet money that if you put this: http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2054 on your turbo it will "just work". I thought I had the problem licked and was graphing and logging till I was blue in the face and swore it was right. I finally bit the bullet, put this on, and things were instantly right and have been ever since without so much as a hiccup.
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
This "flutter" is also known as the dreaded turbo "surge"....going through the same issue on my 2005 BEW with a 17/22....tried all the adjustments as well as four tune revisions and I think I've finally narrowed it down to a bad injector....the large compressor of the 17/22 needs a steady stream of exhaust pulses driving the turbine especially @ lower RPM's to keep the air pumping without reversion.... also just off idle I can feel a hint of a skip (yes cam is perfect even after 320k miles ;))....this a resurrected "grease car" so it most likely has an injector that's not receiving/delivering enough fuel....I have a set of ARL injectors that are going in as soon as I have time.... I'll post up my results then....
As for this being inherent in the 17/22 it's really not....the 17/22 while far from perfect performs well as long as it's supported properly via other mods and a good tune....I've installed several 17/22's both VE and PD and this is the first one I've had an issue with...
 
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hiepriest

Active member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
dayton
TDI
2002 Golf, 2005 Golf
I was through the same wringer on my VNT-17, even to the point of flipping boards and such.
I remember either reading some of your posts or you posting on my thread a year ago about this problem. My question is why do you think it will work? Because it seems that it is the same one that I already have on there. Which I've had two different ones and now it's one of with a flipped board. Which I verified in the computer that my percentages flipped to what Jeff said was correct. In all three actuators (really two because i did the board mod to one of the two) I've had on there I basically notice zero difference between them.
 

hiepriest

Active member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Location
dayton
TDI
2002 Golf, 2005 Golf
....tried all the adjustments as well as four tune revisions and I think I've finally narrowed it down to a bad injector
How did you figure out which injector (I have a vag)? I've done nothing injector /fuel wise with mine. My car has 105k on it now and was bone stock before. It did have a bad lift pump which only made a very slight difference in anything (smoked a little more... that's about it). When you said bad what was yours doing, leaking fuel, bad spray, volume? It is fuel/tune related because when it does it worse is when it's boosting a lot but not getting enough RPM which relates to less fuel, kinda. I can smash the gas and get it to stop "surging" in some situations (lower 4 gears mostly). It's more of a part throttle, low rpm surge which makes sense that if an injector was off that any roughness would show up the most in those situations. Tell me more please!!!
 

aNUT

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Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Location
Boulder, Colorado
TDI
'01 TT (ALH-ish), B7 Audi gasser, '05 Golf
The long and the short of it is the 17/22 is a surge prone turbo...I have a customer that runs one, and I have one myself.

There are a few things that reduce the surge at low-ish engine speed. Overfueling helps, as does reducing timing: both resulting in smoke. Its a band-aid solution to excessive boost and minimal driving pressure. Surge is worse on the BEW compared to the ALH since the BEW seems to request a lot more boost at part throttle.

Have you inspected your cam? If you're losing exhaust lift due to wear (common on PDs) you're losing turbine driving pressure and surge is more likely.

I'm running a Colt stage 2 cam in my ALH which drastically reduced surge due to increased lift and advanced exhaust lobe timing. Got me significantly better fuel economy to boot.
 

ryanp

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I agree with Keith and Anuthee, the hybrids are a pig to map correctly as the compressor is needing more energy than the turbine can give at acceptable smoke levels. This is considering you want it to spool well, most tuners just set them to be laggy and the surge does not occur.

I would check the stop screw and actuator adjustments too as those throw ANY tuning way out.
 

moivw

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Nov 5, 2011
Location
France
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Séat ibiza(s): ahu and pd100
i read that pd100 can sometimes have overboosts issues due to the N75 they have. And some upgrade these to the pd130 ones. I read it, i don t know if this is true.
 

LNXGUY

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Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
i read that pd100 can sometimes have overboosts issues due to the N75 they have. And some upgrade these to the pd130 ones. I read it, i don t know if this is true.
With a Stage2 tune a stock BEW is not very hard to put into limp mode when in 5th gear. But the OP isn't talking about limp mode.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I disagree that these turbos are prone to surge. The point of the larger cold side on a 17/22 is to improve response and reduce lag compared to a stock 17, and it works. If they're tuned with too much fuel or N75 duty cycle, they will surge, but this is easily avoided, in my experience. Jeff was the impetus for us having these turbos assembled by Garrett, and if anyone knows how to tune cars for this turbo, it's him.

I've driven a lot of TDIs with 17/22s and been consistently impressed. I've run one in my own car for over 90K. I've also been told by gurus here who've driven my car that it's one of the best running 17/22 setups they've driven. Credit to Jeff, mrchill, and the right combination of fueling and breathing mods to make it work.

My point? If you're having problems odds are there's something mechanical that's not working, and I wouldn't necessarily look first at the turbo. I may agree that your actuator could be the problem despite the mods you've made, but it seems you've done proper diagnostics to address this. You may want to check the connector and wiring in it, as it may be tired (often is). However, you should get a fault if that's happening.

It's nearly impossible to accurately diagnose an issue like this from afar, but I'd be inclined to look for a fueling issue. These are becoming more common as BEWs age, either from a faulty solenoid in an injector, intermittent problems with the injector harness, or bad spray.
 

majesty78

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Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
Compared to 49mm GT1749VB the GT2252 compressor actually is a downgrade, surge line, PR and max. flow wise :-(

Having a bigger wheel doesn't necessarily mean automatically having a "better" wheel....
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
Compared to 49mm GT1749VB the GT2252 compressor actually is a downgrade, surge line, PR and max. flow wise :-(

Having a bigger wheel doesn't necessarily mean automatically having a "better" wheel....
Thanks for the quick answer.... learning to read compressor maps is on my list of things to do ;)....do you have a link to the two maps?
 

robnitro

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Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
Compared to 49mm GT1749VB the GT2252 compressor actually is a downgrade, surge line, PR and max. flow wise :-(

Having a bigger wheel doesn't necessarily mean automatically having a "better" wheel....
I value your information, can you link me to the maps?
Hmm, so you are saying the VB aka VNT17 turbo is better?
If so, why is VB normally said to do 24 psi max, meanwhile 17/22 can do more? Are you saying they are mistaken?
 

mrchill

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Majesty...which wheel would you choose for the hybrid if not the 52 wheel currently in use? I suspect with the newer technology that there are better wheels now...but I find with the correct hardware and tune, the 1752 really works well...and you cannot beat the mileage. Still hands down the highest mileage turbo upgrade I have ever used.
 

majesty78

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Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
These maps, again, are not available. There is no link to them and I have no permission to share as they are confidential.

When achieving higher flow rates with these /22 compressors you are in constant (and quite massive) overspeeding region.

GT2252V and GT2052V (aka VNT20) are different wheels.

So a 17/22 Hybrid is not the same as a 17/20 Hybrid.
 
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majesty78

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Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
which is better?
If I had no other choice, I would prefer to use VNT20 (GT2052V) wheel from 180hp Audi 2.5L V6 TDI rather than a T4 Bus GT2252V wheel.

But, keep in mind, in those kinds of application:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=248331

both compressors are working far beyond their maps and max. speed limits ;-)

Confidential compressor maps, lol.
Yes, very funny. Ha......................................haaaaaaaaaaa. :p
 
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robnitro

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NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
I'm confused Majesty, I thought you were saying that the 49mm wheel on the VB is better than the 22 wheel... but how is that possible?

I thought that the 22 wheel could handle more flow, hence the unofficial 24 psi limit on VB and 26-28 on the 17/22 (same hotside of course- which is also limits via EMP/EGT).

With the VB, what would you say the max boost for our TDI's should be?
With the 17/22?
 

majesty78

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Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
Let's seperate the regions of maximum torque (boost) and maximum power (flow)

In an application like shown in my link, in max. torque region you would still be within map of 49mm wheel surprisingly, while you are actually far off on the 52mm GT2052V map, hence overspeeding it quite massive by about 20%.

So in this point the 49mm wheel can produce a higher PR and flow.

In max. power region you are off the map with 49mm wheel a little bit, 2-3% overspeeding where in comparison you are spot on the last edge of map with 52mm wheel.

So if I had to choose between an version which runs 20% off map in complete max. torque region or an wheel which runs 2-3% off map at max. power, I would rather decide for....guess what?

Or just use a 52mm wheel which can handle both ;-)
 

jimbote

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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
Let's seperate the regions of maximum torque (boost) and maximum power (flow)

In an application like shown in my link, in max. torque region you would still be within map of 49mm wheel surprisingly, while you are actually far off on the 52mm GT2052V map, hence overspeeding it quite massive by about 20%.

So in this point the 49mm wheel can produce a higher PR and flow.

In max. power region you are off the map with 49mm wheel a little bit, 2-3% overspeeding where in comparison you are spot on the last edge of map with 52mm wheel.

So if I had to choose between an version which runs 20% off map in complete max. torque region or an wheel which runs 2-3% off map at max. power, I would rather decide for....guess what?

Or just use a 52mm wheel which can handle both ;-)
thanks for the explanation....I'm more concerned about torque in my application (I love to drive the torque rise :) ....
 

ryanp

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Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
I had to tune one of these hybrids yesterday, a standard VB turbo would have been better spool and drivability wise. Maybe it made a little more power at the expense of reliability? who knows without a shaft speed sensor!!

There is a reason why i dont sell the run of the mill hybrids, and its not because i dont get asked 20 times a day!
 
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