Timing belt failure - could this be a reputable timing belt?

Rodrigues · Nov 2, 2015

My BRM timing belt stripped and skipped time and my cam is also worn. Supposedly this was all replaced 89k miles ago by the previous owner who claimed they did it themselves with all parts from boraparts. He took really good records and wrote the types of oil he used, etc, but after looking at the timing belt I have a hard time believing that this isn't a chinese timing belt. Is there any way to tell? Maybe it was original.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPmtHys3rgE

newlitemotorist · Nov 2, 2015

The camshaft is one thing and there are many possible factors involved that could have wiped it out. What I see in your video is simply a worn out belt. That is what they do when they have been ran past their intended lifespan. You say everything was changed 89k miles prior to the belt failing. I do hope you were aware that the change interval is 80k. You took it nearly 10k miles past. If I am reading your post right, you are trying to blame the previous owner and accusing him of using inferior parts. That belt failed, and presumably the cam as well, due to owner negligence.

Rodrigues · Nov 2, 2015

The interval is 100k for the belt used, how exactly was I negligent? Do you honestly believe that even if it were 80k then it would go from acceptable to falling apart in 9k miles?

newlitemotorist said:
The camshaft is one thing and there are many possible factors involved that could have wiped it out. What I see in your video is simply a worn out belt. That is what they do when they have been ran past their intended lifespan. You say everything was changed 89k miles prior to the belt failing. I do hope you were aware that the change interval is 80k. You took it nearly 10k miles past. If I am reading your post right, you are trying to blame the previous owner and accusing him of using inferior parts. That belt failed, and presumably the cam as well, due to owner negligence.

newlitemotorist · Nov 2, 2015

I'm sorry if I offended you but I stand by what I said. As crazy as it might sound to you, there is a reason tdi owners know well to stick to the factory recommended timing belt interval to a T.

Look, it sucks this happened and it's a hard way to learn this lesson. Now you know better and now you know why many around here are quick to change the timing belts on any used tdi they purchase. Belts are cheap and you never really know until you know.

Henrick · Nov 3, 2015

Does the belt have any identification in the back side?
Peeling the teeth from the side does not necessary mean it's bad, I think

Tdijarhead · Nov 3, 2015

BEW/BRM is an 80,000 change interval to my knowledge there is no 100k mile belt made for those engines.

cobra390t · Nov 3, 2015

^^ what he said , To add the 100k was the original interval bit the issued new TSB to get them changed @80k , The newer CR @ 100K i believe

GreenLantern_TDI · Nov 3, 2015

Some CRs are 120,000 i believe.

Tdijarhead · Nov 3, 2015

Look at it this way, you said your cam was worn, now you know it is. So replace the cam and assorted other pieces put a new belt on and drive on. Should be good for 300k miles or more.

No I don't think you can blame the PO for this or Bora for that matter. Just inattention to detail...on the part of the CO.

DeliveryValve · Nov 3, 2015

All PD belts are now rated at 80,000 mile change intervals.

Here is my experience.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=447651

.

greengeeker · Nov 3, 2015

That does not look like a typical belt. They aren't usually that shiny and have more of a matte finish to the rubber.

325_Guy · Nov 3, 2015

DeliveryValve said:
All PD belts are now rated at 80,000 mile change intervals.

Here is my experience.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=447651

.

Just to clarify further, the 80k interval has been the norm for years now....this is not a new development.

OP...sorry that we are the bearers of bad news. The belt was past due and unfortunately made its need for replacement known in a very expensive manner.

GreenLantern_TDI · Nov 3, 2015

Shiney belt could be chemical interaction? Oil or coolant or brakleen contamination.

greengeeker · Nov 3, 2015

Or just a poor quality belt?

oilhammer · Nov 4, 2015

I do 100k still on all 4 cyl PD engines. I've never seen one that indicated it was even close to being a problem then, and I've seen plenty in the 130k+ range that still had the original belt still intact, and they still "looked" perfectly fine upon removal.

I suspect that belt had either never been changed like the previous owner said, or it was a very low quality (Chinese?) belt.

The highest ever BRM belt I have seen come in here was 207k miles. Still original, still working fine, car was 6 years old at the time. It did not look any different than a belt with 20k miles on it.

I've never seen a BRM belt outright fail, either.

I am not advocating going beyond 100k, but 80k seems a bit short to me, unless you are not racking up the miles very quickly, and are more concerned with time than distance covered.

turbocharged798 · Nov 4, 2015

The belts are usually all branded on the smooth side. It usually is either conti, dayco, or gates.

Henrick · Nov 4, 2015

oilhammer said:
I do 100k still on all 4 cyl PD engines. I've never seen one that indicated it was even close to being a problem then, and I've seen plenty in the 130k+ range that still had the original belt still intact, and they still "looked" perfectly fine upon removal.
I suspect that belt had either never been changed like the previous owner said, or it was a very low quality (Chinese?) belt.
The highest ever BRM belt I have seen come in here was 207k miles. Still original, still working fine, car was 6 years old at the time. It did not look any different than a belt with 20k miles on it.
I've never seen a BRM belt outright fail, either.
I am not advocating going beyond 100k, but 80k seems a bit short to me, unless you are not racking up the miles very quickly, and are more concerned with time than distance covered.

Well, this is probably "round" vs "oval" crank pulley question.
In Europe, round pulleys (ending with 263 F, used in BEW engine in N.A.) have 120k km change interval (80k miles in N.A.).
Oval pulleys with belt wear reduction teeth (p.n. ends with 263 H and I think they are used in BRM) have interval of 150k km (100k miles in N.A.).
Both intervals are reasonable IMHO.
A friend of mine had a 2.0 TDI Golf with twin-cam PD engine (BKD) and the original belt/WP/rollers with 155k miles.

However, bigger issue is the "X" water pumps, if used. The impeller seems to separate from the shaft way more often than expected. Remanufactured/"X" WPs are junk, avoid them.

I suspect all VW's "ramanned" parts (ending with X) are crap. My Mk6 Golf has got a remanned alternator (changed under warranty by previous owner). I can swear I hear the typical alternator bearing whine....

DeliveryValve · Nov 4, 2015

oilhammer said:
...
I am not advocating going beyond 100k, but 80k seems a bit short to me, unless you are not racking up the miles very quickly, and are more concerned with time than distance covered.

It would seem, based on my experience and doing some internet searches on busted PD belts and water pump failures etc., that past 80k your just rolling the dice. Is it better to be safe than sorry? I'll stick to the Factory 80k interval, it works for me as an insurance payment to not getting an expensive head work bill.

.

oilhammer · Nov 4, 2015

Yep, if it works for you, awesome. Like I said, I have never once seen a PD belt fail before 100k miles, and I have only even ever heard of a handful that did (and two of those happened before 80k, too, so...). But not everyone's internet is the same.

And we service a LOT of BEW, BHW, and BRM cars here, so it isn't like I don't have a good handle on them.

Henrick · Nov 4, 2015

Oilhammer, what is your experience with "X" (a.k.a. remanufactured/refurbished) water pumps (and/or other "X" parts)?

oilhammer · Nov 4, 2015

Mostly they are fine, since it often is a new part anyways. As I was told once when I worked for Volkswagen, the EU (especially France and Germany) have some very strict cradle to grave laws on things like automotive parts. So they want the "core" back to be scrapped, they do not necessarily get "rebuilt". And mostly the X parts I have gotten over the last decade plus are indeed brand new parts, or mostly brand new. Other manufacturers do the same thing. The last several Ford 5.4L E-van engines we have installed were clearly brand spanking new. The last several VAG transmissions I have installed were also brand new, as was the starter I just installed last week. The BRM head I bought last year was also clearly brand spanking new, too.

Henrick · Nov 4, 2015

Must be a bad luck then... Thanks for sharing.

Rodrigues · Nov 5, 2015

I took the head off and all of the exhaust valves hit, but it looks like the intakes never touched. I'm wondering if I should just leave the old intake valves? I already bought new ones but if they never touched then maybe I shouldn't bother.

Rodrigues · Nov 5, 2015

Exhaust valves are out, I'm still trying to decide if I should replace the intake valves too.

I made a little tool that works pretty good, it's a 41x88mm bolt pattern if anyone wants to make one. The tube is just a piece of chromoly tubing with some notches in it so I can reach in and grab the locks. I wrapped tape around the tube about 10 times so it would have no chance of scratching the follower bore.

GreenLantern_TDI · Nov 6, 2015

Your in there. Do it all. Sleep well at night.

oilhammer · Nov 6, 2015

How are the guides? I would check each valve on a suitable fixture, as they don't "bend" like a hemi or pent roof head would, but instead they compact and "accordian" in the stem, and often this damage is really difficult to see with the naked eye.

I myself would just replace all the valves and guides anyways, regardless, since the head is off and apart anyways and those parts are not expensive.

Rodrigues · Nov 6, 2015

I'll measure the valves and guides and see, the timing belt stripped out in my driveway when I tried to start the car so it wasn't even running. I think I'll remove the intake valves so I can clean out the ports, there has to be around a 1/8" buildup of soot inside the runner.

oilhammer said:
How are the guides? I would check each valve on a suitable fixture, as they don't "bend" like a hemi or pent roof head would, but instead they compact and "accordian" in the stem, and often this damage is really difficult to see with the naked eye.
I myself would just replace all the valves and guides anyways, regardless, since the head is off and apart anyways and those parts are not expensive.

DeliveryValve · Nov 6, 2015

oilhammer said:
....
I myself would just replace all the valves and guides anyways, regardless, since the head is off and apart anyways and those parts are not expensive.

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that VW does not offer replacement guides, you'd have to buy a whole head. Is there aftermarket guides available that any machine shop can install?

.

Rodrigues · Nov 6, 2015

You can buy them in sets of 4 for $15 from ID parts, that's where I got the valves and valve seals from.

DeliveryValve said:
I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that VW does not offer replacement guides, you'd have to buy a whole head. Is there aftermarket guides available that any machine shop can install?
.

oilhammer · Nov 6, 2015

Yes, the aftermarket has had valve guides available for these for a long time.

Timing belt failure - could this be a reputable timing belt?

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