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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old June 20th, 2018, 07:10   #1
Tacoma_TDI
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Default Wastegate Turbos Instead of VNT

I'm going to start of by stating I am fully aware the differences between the VNT and wastegate bypass systems, and that while they accomplish the same thing they are vastly different design-wise.

With that out of the way, I'm wondering how many of you have run a "wastegate style" turbocharger on your diesels. I'm running an ALH in my swapped Tacoma and I'm experiencing really high EGTs, so would like to explore the idea of a larger turbo. There is a tremendous availability of aftermarket wastegate-style turbos on the market, many of which I can get at a discounted rate through local performance shops. I feel like this topic isn't often discussed due to the amount of custom fabrication that would be involved, however I'm running a fully custom log-style manifold in my application so I'm not limited to what I can and can't run. My concern being the ability to tune the ECU to work with a wastegate-style turbo. I would love to hear others' experiences, if any. Thanks all!
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Old June 20th, 2018, 09:24   #2
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It surely can be made to work with a tune. What size turbo are you running? Maybe you just need a larger VNT turbo. I have run a "large" wastegate turbo on my TDI (holset he211), it certainly doesn't guarantee low EGT's. Fueling is also very important in that aspect.

The VNT technology is great, and I will not be using another wastegate turbo in place of a VNT on my next swap (which is also a tacoma).
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Old June 20th, 2018, 13:16   #3
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Out of curiosity, what's your idea of really high EGT? On the older VNT I wouldn't worry about the EGT unless if you're sustatining over 1600 for a long period of time, or see your water temp start to rise with high EGT. When the water temp starts to rise, that's when you know you're going too far.
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Old June 21st, 2018, 10:20   #4
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I’m with crazyrunner33. What are considerd high egts?
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Old June 21st, 2018, 11:25   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtpsd View Post
It surely can be made to work with a tune. What size turbo are you running? Maybe you just need a larger VNT turbo. I have run a "large" wastegate turbo on my TDI (holset he211), it certainly doesn't guarantee low EGT's. Fueling is also very important in that aspect.

The VNT technology is great, and I will not be using another wastegate turbo in place of a VNT on my next swap (which is also a tacoma).

Im running a 1749VA off of a Passat. Why do you say this? You'll love the TDI Tacoma. It's an absolute riot to drive and gets endless questions, wherever I go.

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Originally Posted by crazyrunner33 View Post
Out of curiosity, what's your idea of really high EGT? On the older VNT I wouldn't worry about the EGT unless if you're sustatining over 1600 for a long period of time, or see your water temp start to rise with high EGT. When the water temp starts to rise, that's when you know you're going too far.

I see 1400-1500 before I back off going up highway hills. It's not that I consider 1400 high, its that holding it up long hills is seems like a bad idea. I've been told that you don't to hold that for too long, where 1600 is a no no. My water temps have stayed absurdly constant, no matter how I drive. Max range when warm is between 78C-86C, according to my OBD reader.

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Old June 21st, 2018, 22:28   #6
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auto or manual?
quick spool necessary?
if it needs to light quick, grab a used td04hl-15t-5cm off a HPT 2.3 saab, or any of the he2xx series holsets brand new, but if it can be a bit lazier then go bigger, big turbos are always gentler to the motor when it's getting run hard as it is in a pickup swap

ETA: if you simply disable trouble codes for underboost and overboost you will not run into troubles with a WG turbo on VNT maps, it's how mine's currently set up.
n75 is still plugged in, but just dangling from the wires and not hooked to vacuum or anything, haven't gotten around to figuring out how to disable n75 DTCs yet

Last edited by [486]; June 21st, 2018 at 22:33.
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Old June 22nd, 2018, 07:04   #7
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wastegate is just the original variable geometry turbo technology
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Old June 22nd, 2018, 09:36   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma_TDI View Post
Im running a 1749VA off of a Passat. Why do you say this? You'll love the TDI Tacoma. It's an absolute riot to drive and gets endless questions, wherever I go.




I see 1400-1500 before I back off going up highway hills. It's not that I consider 1400 high, its that holding it up long hills is seems like a bad idea. I've been told that you don't to hold that for too long, where 1600 is a no no. My water temps have stayed absurdly constant, no matter how I drive. Max range when warm is between 78C-86C, according to my OBD reader.
Being cautious never hurts. But you're well into the safe area. The limit is the turbine in terms of exhaust temperature. The generation of inconels can hold around 1600 continuously as in all day long, I've tried destroying them at 1800 for 10 minutes and didn't notice any issue with brief moments above 2000 degrees. Should you do that? No, but going above 1600 up a grade shouldn't give you anxiety. I'd be more concerned about the boost gauge and the coolant gauge.

If you do upgrade turbos, I recommend a slightly larger and modern version of the VNT. The newer materials are designed to be able to withstand the abuse from a DPF.
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Old June 22nd, 2018, 18:54   #9
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Originally Posted by crazyrunner33 View Post
The limit is the turbine in terms of exhaust temperature.
nope it's the vanes
the metal gets gummy and sticky when it is run that hot, and trying to move the vanes around makes them gall
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Old June 25th, 2018, 06:30   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrunner33 View Post
Being cautious never hurts. But you're well into the safe area. The limit is the turbine in terms of exhaust temperature. The generation of inconels can hold around 1600 continuously as in all day long, I've tried destroying them at 1800 for 10 minutes and didn't notice any issue with brief moments above 2000 degrees. Should you do that? No, but going above 1600 up a grade shouldn't give you anxiety. I'd be more concerned about the boost gauge and the coolant gauge.
If you do upgrade turbos, I recommend a slightly larger and modern version of the VNT. The newer materials are designed to be able to withstand the abuse from a DPF.
I've never seen anyone quote these numbers. I really hope this is the case, but I'm skeptical because people seem to cling to that 1600F religiously. That said, none of them have ever said they've firsthand experienced failure as a result of elevated temps. What turbo did you do this on?
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Old June 25th, 2018, 06:32   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
auto or manual?
quick spool necessary?
if it needs to light quick, grab a used td04hl-15t-5cm off a HPT 2.3 saab, or any of the he2xx series holsets brand new, but if it can be a bit lazier then go bigger, big turbos are always gentler to the motor when it's getting run hard as it is in a pickup swap

ETA: if you simply disable trouble codes for underboost and overboost you will not run into troubles with a WG turbo on VNT maps, it's how mine's currently set up.
n75 is still plugged in, but just dangling from the wires and not hooked to vacuum or anything, haven't gotten around to figuring out how to disable n75 DTCs yet
I have yet to get into modifying the computer myself but I do have an eBay MPPS cable that I hope to use soon. How do you suppress these codes? I have a couple other codes I need to suppress (glow plug, ABS).
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Old June 25th, 2018, 06:49   #12
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Originally Posted by Tacoma_TDI View Post
I have yet to get into modifying the computer myself but I do have an eBay MPPS cable that I hope to use soon. How do you suppress these codes? I have a couple other codes I need to suppress (glow plug, ABS).
check the glowplugs link in my signature for the GPs, other codes are similar, you find another trouble code with a similar configuration of data blocks that is disabled and compare it to the code you wish to disable.

you can use either winols (which is kind of tough to get even through non-legal means) or just any hexadecimal editor and then vagedcsuite to redo the checksum
winols does make it a poopload easier to see the patterns what with all its little options
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Old June 25th, 2018, 08:04   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma_TDI View Post
I've never seen anyone quote these numbers. I really hope this is the case, but I'm skeptical because people seem to cling to that 1600F religiously. That said, none of them have ever said they've firsthand experienced failure as a result of elevated temps. What turbo did you do this on?
As [486] pointed out, the vanes may deform first on the older VNT, though a lot of turbine failures we've seen like this have been caused by timing issues. Drivbiwire has also been quoted saying the VNT of the generation of the ALH were rated at 900c for max sustain temperature. I've only abused wastegated and non-gated turbos of that generation, only newer VNT and VGT Borgwarner and Garrett turbos I've abused are the newer generation turbos designed to take abuse from a DPF, and they're rated that high.

As far as the craziest abuse I've seen on non-gated Borgwarner turbos of the last 10 years, I've seen them survive brief peaks beyond 3,000 degrees f. One of the fire pumps at a GP paper mill came from the factory with a murphy monitoring system that doesn't shut the engine down until 2,500 EGT, and still retains a 10 year warranty.

If you're worried about the EGT, I wouldn't jump to a massive slow spooling turbo. I'd go for a modern Garrett or BW VNT turbo, they've been designed to withstand some incredible abuse. Also, make sure you're downshifting if there's room to downshift, that lowers the EGT and cools down the engine quite a bit.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 08:12   #14
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AHU and 1Z TDIs have wastegate turbos. Lots of people have used the Garrett 20/52 turbo as an upgrade for those cars, with good results. I've thought that a modern ball-bearing wastegate turbo would be a good upgrade for TDIs. The big issue you have to work around is spool time. Wastegate turbos don't build boost as fast as variable vane turbos. They work on the early TDIs because (a) those cars over-fuel and make good power at low revs without much boost; and (b) the turbo is tiny so it spools pretty fast even for a wastegate turbo. But I think you may find there are some good options if you want to get away from variable vane. Look at gasser K03s, 04s, or upgrades to those turbos somewhere like 034 Motorsport.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 09:00   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMA View Post
wastegate is just the original variable geometry turbo technology
Could you expand on that though?
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