Need advice: Replace or rebuild injection pump?

halocline

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Aug 13, 2009
Location
San Antonio
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04 Jetta Wagon
halocline: Actually, I'm only about 10 hours from Austin...
I know from many trips that Saltillo to San Antonio is every bit of six hours, including the border stop. I just don't see how you could possibly get from Saltillo to Guadalajara in less than 8, and then you have the hour and a half from S.A. to Austin. It doesn't matter....and you live there so I would suspect you'd know, and I could certainly be wrong.

Anyhow, runonbeer can at least give you some advice, maybe if your pump is off you could send it to him.
 

chromeBuddha

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Arlington, TX - DFW metroplex
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If you have a friend with a pickup they could rent a uhaul tow dolly and pull it back. Just have proof of ownership, etc when crossing the border. Adventure opportunities like this make me wish I was retired...
 

Flimzy

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Feb 27, 2006
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Wichita, Kansas
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2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
I went to look at my car today, this time with a translator. The IP has been completely removed from the car and dismantled... They've also removed the cam cover and the fuel injectors. What the...? Pictures follow:
Engine compartment
"Rusty" shaft
"Rusty" haft
Interior of IP

So I first asked the guy what the problem was, and he said the problem was there was/had been water in the IP. As evidence he showed me the cam(??) shaft taken from the IP, with rust on it. Sorry the pictures are a bit blurry.

He also told me (I think) that there was damage inside of the pump housing (last picture above), which I took a picture of.

You'll also notice the white marks and cable ties on the timing belt (first picture). When I questioned him about this, he assured me this was "just as good" as the other method (of aligning the engine at top-center, and aligning the IP, etc) but that his method is just as good, and is preferred in Mexico, because "We do things differently in Mexico than in the USA." Whatever...

He also told me that the "positioner" didn't work. I'm not sure what that is, but what he showed me when describing this problem was the part that sits on top of the IP, which, I believe is/contains the quantity adjuster. I'm not sure how he determined it didn't work... would this burn out if trying to start the engine with leaky seals? If not, then it seems like an amazing coincidence that the "positioner"/quantity adjuster would die at exactly the same instant that the seals began to leak.

So clearly at this point, I must replace the injection pump. My only question at this point is: Should I trust this guy to do it, or should I take the car to a VW dealer? (I have an appointment at the VW dealership for Monday morning if I choose to go that route.)

Reasons that _I feel_ like I can't trust this guy:

1. He told me my car doesn't have an ECU.
2. He prefers the 'mark-and-pray' timing method, for timing.
3. He removed the cam cover and injectors from my engine for no apparent reason.
4. His claim that the "positioner" doesn't work

What do the experts here think? Will I get a more competent mechanic at a VW dealership (which I distrust back home anyway, but at this point I think I may distrust the VW dealerships less than I distrust this guy.)
 

jcrews

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Round Rock, TX - VCDS
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All gone
Wow. All failsauce, no bread.

Where to begin? I would be furious; did you even authorize such work?

First of all, that level of disassembly should only be done in a very clean machine shop. Putting that mess back together is typically done with a test bench. It may be possible to align using the keyway, plunger depth, and knowledge of the ignition timing requirements, but it's not easy, and I haven't tried, so I have no guidance for that. I can't see the "rust" clearly but I don't see corrosion. It looks more like varnish.

The ECM runs diagnostics on the QA at start-up, so a failed positioner would cause a flashing glow plug lamp. If it doesn't work at all, the engine can't run.

I can't tell much from the photo. It looks like someone got dirt in the pump and there may be some pitting in there. What is most telling is the condition of the plunger and the cam-plate.

Before the car is completely destroyed, get away and tow the vehicle someplace else. If you don't, you'll be much worse off later on.

Let me rephrase that for you:

You can't trust this idiot! The dealership will just put a new pump on but at high cost. Your best option may be to come north of the border or find someone there that knows what to do.
 
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Flimzy

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2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
No, I never authorized any work on the IP. I asked the mechanic only to investigate air getting into the fuel line. When he discovered the leaking IP, he should have called me before tearing it apart.

I'll tow it from there on Monday. In the mean time, I'll consider options for towing it to the U.S. and decide if I want to hire the VW dealership, or bring it to the U.S.
 

Flimzy

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halocline: You're right that my 10 hour estimate was way off... not sure what I was thinking. It's about 10 hours from here to the U.S. border, when I drive fast and don't stop for fuel (which I rarely have to do in my TDI--when it's working!)
 

chromeBuddha

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There is no way you want that guy doing any more work on your car. Looks like they went crazy the way kids do on X-mas morning with the new toys (or the boxes they came in for the littler kids...).

I hope they don't charge you much labor. They have sure turned a reasonable problem into a SH1TZburger.

That dog has more rust than the shaft...or were they talking about the shaft they gave you?

Mark and pray...it isn't an automatic kiss of death, but it is almost always accompanied by inferior parts and technique which doom it. I would say you would have to have considerable knowledge of what you are doing with regard to these specific engines to have mark and pray be reliable...and by the time you get that experience, you have had the tools for a while anyway...

It would be interesting to see their tool/technique for adjusting the tensioner...BZZ, BZZ.
 
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josh8loop

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2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
I agree with the above. I feel bad that this has happened to you! What a complete mess they have made for you-and all for about $30.00 worth of seals etc! The rust on the shaft is on the outboard side of the IP, or at least in the transition area of the shaft output seal BTW.

I would get every piece of that injection pump from them that's for sure. It can most likely be rebuilt with a full rebuild kit and put back in eventually. Here is a link of an injection pump that is for an older VW diesel(one without the electrical based quantity adjustment) but the rest is basically the same, and it will show you exactly which pieces to get from them when you ask for your parts back.


High pressure head assembly and other parts:


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=437307



Pump assembly:

http://scirocco.cs.uoguelph.ca/gtd/bosch-ve/assembly/pump.html




I believe with some patience, and some studying of these and similar resources, most likely you could get it together your self and get it back on the car and running. Not sure what your mechanical comfort level is though-in any case, knowledge is power!!




..


..







..
 

halocline

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Location
San Antonio
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04 Jetta Wagon
I suppose you could gather the parts of the pump and ship them up here to get it rebuilt. A brand new one is just over $1k at places like IDparts. I have no idea what kind of import tax you'd be looking at.

Really sorry this is happening and I suspect you have zero recourse against the guy currently 'working' on your car.
 

lglamb

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
I'd check on the World Impex (sp?) mentioned earlier on the price for their pumps. Also note if they require a "rebuildable" core. I've found that a new/rebuilt pump runs close to what rebuilding costs. Given your box of parts, your rebuild may cost more than normal.
FWIW, I just had my 10mm rebuilt at a Bosch Certified shop for $850, not including installation. Bora has rebuilt/new 10mm for $950 + core (and actually getting hold of him :). I think TDI is a little more, and I don't know what Impex has.

And get your car far, far away from your current shop. Also ask your VW shop how they install/time the pumps on TDI's, and see if it jibes with best practices (on TDIclub).
 

Flimzy

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Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
I think the closest I'll have to recourse is to just not pay them the $400 pesos (~$31 USD) they're asking for the labor to disassemble... er... destroy my car. At least stiffing them that would give me a little bit of pleasure, although it wouldn't really solve any problems.

If I was at home in the U.S., where I have a garage, and tools, I might attempt installing an injection pump myself. Here, where I have only a tiny drive way, no shade, a bare minimum socket set for road-side emergencies and oil changes, etc, I don't think it's a good idea for me to attempt something like that on my own.

If I can find a TDI mechanic I trust here, I'd love to avoid the dealership prices... but I think that may prove impossible. And even international shipping + import duties both ways probably makes getting my current pump rebuilt more expensive than just ordering a brand new one. I may, however, keep the parts to this pump, (if they aren't needed for a core return) and have the pump re-built when I return to the U.S. in a few months... I can then sell it, or have a spare on hand (I have several relatives/friends with Mk4 TDIs as well, so it will likely come in handy eventually)
 
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Flimzy

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Joined
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Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
josh8loop: At your suggestion, I've been researching what might be involved in re-assembling the injection pump myself. It looks like it's not too hard--just many many steps... HOWEVER... Almost everywhere I read about it (including the link you gave me, and the comments on this Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYttzGdKgM0), everyone is warning that this is not an easy thing to do right. The assembly instructions you linked to say the poster actually failed twice before he successfully rebuilt one of these pumps.

The YouTube video I linked to says that the "all four [rotter] blades need to sit in their respective grove. They can't be interchanged, and they can't be flipped around." Since this pump has already been disassembled, I have no idea of their original orientations! heh...

It seems like I just have way too many strikes against me to salvage this mess... The pump was disassembled by an idiot, I've never attempted this before, and I don't have the equipment to test/calibrate the pump after I assemble it.

I'd still love to try to put this thing back together, just as a learning exercise... But I'm not sure I want to risk the further well-being of my car by doing it. If the worst I can do by not assembling the pump properly is further ruin the pump, then all I have to lose is the time it takes to try, and the lack of transportation during that time...

If I decide to try to undertake this myself, where can I go for help during the reassembly process?
 

CrAkHeD

Member
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Oct 29, 2011
Location
SE Mich/NW Ohio
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI
I am new to the forum and kinda new to the diesel world, but while searching for the check valve tee that I broke while changing a fuel filter this weekend, I found this site that has really good prices and super-low shipping fees.

I just ordered the tee I need and a new brake light switch (which will hopefully take care of the flashing glow plug light and lack of cruise control) and spent a grand total of $12 including shippping, which is way better than the $50+ that the local parts store wanted for the check valve alone.

They have 6 different options for rebuilt pumps ranging from $500-$710 (prices include core charge fees). The more expensive options are made with 100% Bosch parts where the cheaper versions may have some imported parts. He also offers mechanical pumps if that is what you need. I made up a mock order to see what the shipping fees would be and it was only $72 for international shipping.
 

josh8loop

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Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Location
Vero Beach, Fl.
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2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
I am new to the forum and kinda new to the diesel world, but while searching for the check valve tee that I broke while changing a fuel filter this weekend, I found this site that has really good prices and super-low shipping fees.

I just ordered the tee I need and a new brake light switch (which will hopefully take care of the flashing glow plug light and lack of cruise control) and spent a grand total of $12 including shippping, which is way better than the $50+ that the local parts store wanted for the check valve alone.

They have 6 different options for rebuilt pumps ranging from $500-$710 (prices include core charge fees). The more expensive options are made with 100% Bosch parts where the cheaper versions may have some imported parts. He also offers mechanical pumps if that is what you need. I made up a mock order to see what the shipping fees would be and it was only $72 for international shipping.




Remember parts from Peter Rothenberger(goes by Prothe and many other internet store fronts) from South Carolina are generally junk. Most especially anything mechanical in nature. Be warned!!





..
 

Losha

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06 Jetta TDI DSG, 2001 Golf TDI, Audi S6, A8, Toureg
WOW! sorry to hear about your mess buddy, but there is no way you will put that pump back together on your own now nor that EXPERT mechanic (that took it apart). On all 99.5-03 ALH Injection pump don't have a key to keep sprocket hub locked in position to shaft, so once you remove hub off of the shaft timing is completely reset.....

If you were closer to me or I would've been able to resassemble that pump and install new seals but for now you are out of luck. You have two option buy new pump and have dealer or someone that knows what they are doing or send all parts of your pump to DFIS and have them reassemble it properly then ship back to you.

The fact they didn't know that all modern vehicles have ECU tells me to run away from that place.

If you had all tools needed to reassemble everything back and VCDS then with few hours on phone, I might be able walk you thru steps to put that pump back together, but it will require lots of patiences and trial errors.

Here is the link to one pump I reseal last january that I took pics of, you can view how things go together.
http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb63/losha64/TDI%20Injection%20pump/
 

Losha

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06 Jetta TDI DSG, 2001 Golf TDI, Audi S6, A8, Toureg

Josh, in your post about 2 failed pumps and 4 succesful who were you reffering to? the guy from youtube or me? to my knoweldge all the ones (10 or so I've done) that I completely resealed including shaft seal are all perfectly working fine without any problems for few years already.
 

csstevej

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north nj
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2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
That picture sequence was great , you should really put words and how to on this and make it a sticky:D. If you ever do please send me a copy so I can put this in my files.

Steve
 

Flimzy

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Location
Wichita, Kansas
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2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
I took my car to a local VW dealership yesterday. They just called me with prices:

Installation of a new injection pump: $4,000 pesos ($296 USD)
New injection pump: $57,000 pesos ($4219 USD)
Rebuilt injection pump: $30,000 pesos ($2221 USD)

Fortunately, they are willing to install a pump I provide myself (although they won't offer me a guarantee). So I'll be ordering my own pump from the U.S. for them to install.
 

Losha

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06 Jetta TDI DSG, 2001 Golf TDI, Audi S6, A8, Toureg
That picture sequence was great , you should really put words and how to on this and make it a sticky:D. If you ever do please send me a copy so I can put this in my files.

Steve

I tought about that but problem is Im not very good at making how to's and explaining every step in writing nor have time to do it. Also this is a type of repair average person wouldn't be able to do. I wouldn't advise everyone to try perform this type of repair unless they exactly what they are doing and fully understand how IP works & have proper tools to do the job.

This type of procedure requires to have a patience and clean working area. Its pretty easy straight forward job once you done few times. The problem is that there will be to many people that will try to this on their own and will distroy their IP do to lack of knoweldge/understanding of IP.

As you can see there are lately been lot of post made on forum with IP issue after someone tried resealing their IP and messed something up. So if I would make DIY howto I'm sure we will see lot more of threads with messed up IP after someone tried resealing it.
 

Flimzy

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halocline

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San Antonio
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I called the guy, and he says the IP was pulled from a wrecked car about 8 months ago. At that time, the engine ran fine. He's also lowered the price to $300. Should I be concerned about an IP that's been sitting that long?
There's a good way to deal with this; it looks like the guy's in south Austin, probably very close to runonbeer. Pay him (runonbeer) to check it out, maybe even reseal it. It'll still be a very inexpensive way to go.
 

Losha

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06 Jetta TDI DSG, 2001 Golf TDI, Audi S6, A8, Toureg
I called the guy, and he says the IP was pulled from a wrecked car about 8 months ago. At that time, the engine ran fine. He's also lowered the price to $300. Should I be concerned about an IP that's been sitting that long?
If pump still has fuel in it and not sat dry for this long time then you should be fine. For that price its a good deal to buy unless pump has some damage and set dry for long period of time. I would suggest Runonbeer to check pump out before you buy and then have him reseal it for you and ship it to you so dealer can install it. It will cost you bit more by time you get pump in your hands but it still will be cheaper then buying one from dealer or new one from impex for $900.
 

csstevej

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north nj
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2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
I tought about that but problem is Im not very good at making how to's and explaining every step in writing nor have time to do it. Also this is a type of repair average person wouldn't be able to do. I wouldn't advise everyone to try perform this type of repair unless they exactly what they are doing and fully understand how IP works & have proper tools to do the job.

This type of procedure requires to have a patience and clean working area. Its pretty easy straight forward job once you done few times. The problem is that there will be to many people that will try to this on their own and will distroy their IP do to lack of knoweldge/understanding of IP.

As you can see there are lately been lot of post made on forum with IP issue after someone tried resealing their IP and messed something up. So if I would make DIY howto I'm sure we will see lot more of threads with messed up IP after someone tried resealing it.

I'm not your average person;), but if you do find the time, If you could PM me the tools needed and notes I would really appreciate it.

On a legal note I would not hold you responsible due to my stupidity:D.

I am always looking to see how things work and be able to repair them.
 

Lightflyer1

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Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
I am in the Austin area if I can be of any help with this. I am not a guru or mechanic though, so my help may be somewhat limited. I could pick up the pump and get the seals and tool and send them to you, if we can work that out. I will pm you my email and phone.
 

runonbeer

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Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
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I could seal it up, but I'd have to install it onto a (my) car to make sure I have it set up right. That takes time. Just let me know if you want my help. Probably your best bet is to just put that pump on as is and if necessary, I can seal it up on your way back. Make sure it's timed right etc.

I'm not your average person;), but if you do find the time, If you could PM me the tools needed and notes I would really appreciate it.

On a legal note I would not hold you responsible due to my stupidity:D.

I am always looking to see how things work and be able to repair them.
I'm not sure what exactly you're after here but there is a pretty good (if I do say so myself) how to video on replacing pump seals already in existence; linked in my signature. And another one on dieselgeek's website. And yes, I agree it should be stickied. There are at least 2-3 leaky pump seal threads per week.
 
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