Is Mercedes behind in diesel technology?

tdiclubfan

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TDI
Shopping for one
I looked through their Bluetec offerings and none of them look that remarkable in terms of fuel economy vs the TDIs. Are they behind in diesel development?
 

DnA Diesel

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no more...
I looked through their Bluetec offerings and none of them look that remarkable in terms of fuel economy vs the TDIs. Are they behind in diesel development?
MB is the "safe player" in the diesel crowd...not the highest power, not the most efficient, but still there. That said, you have to hand it to them that they are putting diesels in more vehicles across their line-up than the other diesel makers.

Regards
D.
 

ruking

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Location
San Jose area, CA
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2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
I think in many ways the USA laws, rules and regulations are built to keep European cars lower in vol and percentage. It is also there to dial out diesels. So in that sense the US rules and regulations are behind. I think everything flows (actually does NOT) from that.

But more to your question I am not sure what you mean. In the over all context, the US markets do not get anything near the range of diesels available on the European markets, albeit better to BEST DIESEL mpg. (same is true for gassers as a context) Indeed we get the dumbed downed more costly versions in almost every case. In addition we almost always get one diesel engine choice. Europeans normally have multiple diesel engine choices. There are lots of reasons, but that is probably a whole other discussion. But drilling down to what can be actually available in the US.

The E350's CDI (sedan) is a carry over for a 2011/2012 redesign.

The 2012 ML 350 (crossover suv) has a 3.0 V6 CDI, 455# ft of torque (new and re) design that posts 27 H EPA with a 7 speed CVT hybrid automatic transmission.

VW Touareg has a 3.0 V6 TDI with 406 # ft of torque, and posts 28 mpg with a 8 speed automatic transmission, albeit slush box Japanese A/T vendor.

So, 66#'s less weight, the one less gear, hybrid vs slush box, less torque production and/or combination could easily account for the (1 mpg) 3.7% better mpg for the Touareg. I think you would agree it is too close to really tell. This also might be a sort of lead in for the CDI/TDI's automatic/DSG transmissions revolution.

These and many other variables could be used to decide between examples (diesel crossover SUV's) BMW X5 -35D, MB ML350, VW Touareg). So if one favors max torque (455) over +1 mpg,= MB ML350, One favoring +1 MPG over torque 406)= VW Touareg. One favoring higher torque (425) with lower fuel mileage and closest to sport car but stiff handling, BMW X5-35D. etc.,etc.
 
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DnA Diesel

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Location
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no more...
The OM642 re-design is certainly something to alter M-B's place in the diesel world, but it doesn't seem to go much beyond that tweak.

By "safe", I meant a subjective term meaning currently trending towards having a diesel in (most) every vehicle, but without the higher-power trends that BMW is pursuing (particularly with the 50d tri-turbo), nor with the economy emphasis that VAG is placing on 2.0L CR engines. The result is the availability of a diesel option in nearly all of M-B's chassis, but with the C-series as the exception. A C250 (or C350) Bluetec would be a great car, but I don't think we'll see a smaller 4-banger oil burner in a Benz for some time to come. That said, I think BMW has also lost momentum on any gains it had from making a re-entrance to the diesel world after the last effort in the 80's with the 524tds...the X5 is selling well, but a wider range of diesel offerings, including a smaller 4, like what I believe M-B should be offering, would be readily accepted, I believe.


Regards
D.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
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Location
La Conner, WA
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... None :S
Ya, their US diesel offerings are all in large cars with 6 cylinder engines. You need to do an apples to apples comparison.

That said historically MB does tend to hold on to older diesel tech for a long time. They were using prechambers until 2000 as I recall!

-J

-J
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
In the highly competitive European market, no company can afford to be significantly behind their competitor peers in terms of Diesel technology, which encompasses fuel economy, NVH, performance, etc. The Japanese OEMs had the learn this lesson the hard way. Limiting the discussion on the major German automakers, I don't think any one comes out head-and-shoulders above the others, although as an engine engineer, I see BMW has having taken the biggest risks in design and technology in recent years, and this has been handsomely rewarded by some amazing engine designs that has been recognized with awards the world over. Having seen 123d engine being torn apart down to the last screw and analyzed, one gets an appreciation of the attention to detail to optimize weight and friction. Yet when one looks at benchmark results in metrics like NVH, minimum BSFC, etc., the BMW engine does not lead these areas. But overall I still like recent BMW Diesel offerings the most among any other company; my conclusion is not based on reading car magazines or websites, or even owning one myself (although I would love to), but rather from an engineering perspective.
 

Derrel H Green

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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Not Behind IMHO

:)

Don't think that anyone can say MBZ is behind when they are soon to offer the GLK with only a 2.1 L
four banger that puts out the same torque as does my '05 CDI, that being 369 ft/lb torque. :p

How did they manage that much torque from only 2.1 liters? :confused:

:D

Derrel
 

JSWTDI09

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2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
How did they manage that much torque from only 2.1 liters? :confused:

:D

Derrel
I know guys getting almost that much torque out of a 1.9 liter VW diesel. The real question is: How did they manage that much torque from only 2.1 liters and still pass US emission requirements?

Have Fun!

Don
 

kjclow

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Location
Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Since Diamler was one of the other companies that collaberated to develop the new clean burning diesel technology, I would say that they are not behind any of the other companies offering diesels that meet the current and pending emmission regulations worldwide. The issue, as mentioned above, is the market niche that Mercedes fills in North America: large high priced cruisers with extreme comfort. It's kind of hard to expect them to offer bleeding edge performance either on mileage or track when that isn't the demand of most of their consumers.
 

DnA Diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2000
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
TDI
no more...
:)
Don't think that anyone can say MBZ is behind when they are soon to offer the GLK with only a 2.1 L
four banger that puts out the same torque as does my '05 CDI, that being 369 ft/lb torque. :p
How did they manage that much torque from only 2.1 liters? :confused:
:D
Derrel

Boost, and lots of it...creating very high V.E.!

Scaled down to a 2.1L equivalent, 2.1L of BMW's 3.0L 50d would produce 382 ft-lbs, a bit more than the OM651 -- that said, M-B's little 2.1 is still pretty impressive!
 
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hpc

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Location
indiana
TDI
2002 NB TDI, 2013 GLK 250 BlueTec
The OM642 re-design is certainly something to alter M-B's place in the diesel world, but it doesn't seem to go much beyond that tweak.

By "safe", I meant a subjective term meaning currently trending towards having a diesel in (most) every vehicle, but without the higher-power trends that BMW is pursuing (particularly with the 50d tri-turbo), nor with the economy emphasis that VAG is placing on 2.0L CR engines. The result is the availability of a diesel option in nearly all of M-B's chassis, but with the C-series as the exception. A C250 (or C350) Bluetec would be a great car, but I don't think we'll see a smaller 4-banger oil burner in a Benz for some time to come. That said, I think BMW has also lost momentum on any gains it had from making a re-entrance to the diesel world after the last effort in the 80's with the 524tds...the X5 is selling well, but a wider range of diesel offerings, including a smaller 4, like what I believe M-B should be offering, would be readily accepted, I believe.


Regards
D.

MB is bringing the 2.1/2.2L turbo-diesel GLK to the States this fall - my
order is placed with the dealer. I was hoping MB would bring the 3.5L V-6 CDI over, but this would kick its gasser brother arse.

I was told the A-class and maybe the B-class MIGHT also come over
at a later date - not holding my breath on this comment though.

Cheers!
 

Derrel H Green

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 2, 2002
Location
Murrieta, California
TDI
An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Same Torque as the Older Staright Six

Boost, and lots of it . . . creating very high V.E.!

Scaled down to a 2.1L equivalent, 2.1L of BMW's 3.0L 50d would produce 382 ft-lbs, a bit more than the OM651 -- that said, M-B's little 2.1 is still pretty impressive!
:)

Especially when we see that the new 2.1 engine produces the same 369 ft/lb torque
as does my 2005 W-211 3.222 straight six older model.
I wonder if it will be as quick as my old sedan? :confused:

:D

Derrel
 
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