Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

TDIDaveNH · Sep 19, 2015

learningneverends said:
I guess my point is cheating the head cheats is fine with me.

I'd have to agree...So VW rolled the house...to me, that's class. Environmental issues notwithstanding of course, for reals.

Jimmy Coconuts said:
What a clusterf***. Bet this results in VW pulling out of the USA diesel market for good.

2016 for VW could be like 1986 for Oldsmobile

MAW · Sep 19, 2015

Jayg said:
With all the problems I had with my POS CR 2012 Jetta that was bought back, I'm so glad to know I don't have that thing anymore. Being at the VW dealer for everything under the sun. egr, dpf , leaks etc all before 20k miles. Glad to know I made the right call not sticking with it.

The way to make a common rail VW reliable is to make it illegal and void the warranty by removing exhaust components and getting a tune. I remember threads used to get deleted here when people asked about DPF deletes and it turns out the STOCK tune is illegal! LOL

God, good luck guys.

When I got rid of my 09 Sportwagen I already had to clean the exhaust flap and just started to hear about the HPFP failures. After having a 01M grenade on me, I knew VW's quality history and lack of support for their customers and decided to cut my losses and move on. I will never own another VW.

eddie_1 · Sep 19, 2015

It's a shame. VW figured out a way to get around the EPA double standard (smoke em with your pick up truck ok etc), anti-diesel policies and bring the people's car to the people. If you remember some years in the early 2000s TDIs were even banned in some states. Again VW had the people's interest at heart to tune the timing and air for better mpg and lowering particles at the expense of some NOx. Now they will be criminalized. Maybe they will build a special prison for VWoA after fining them $1B. The truth is most cars on the road don't meet the norms any way. If it was Detroit based probably would have gotten a nudge and wink. I am surprised the TSIs with direction injection gasoline are getting through. Maybe they are not as threatening.

n1acguy · Sep 19, 2015

nj1266 said:
This will be my first and last diesel car. I am transitioning to electric. I already lease a Spark EV and I drive it more than I do my diesel. It is more economical for me too.
At 2.56$ per gallon at my filling station, diesel has never been cheaper in SoCal. When I drive my TDI to and from work I average 47 mpg. Doing the math, 1000 miles cost me 54.30$.
By contrast driving my EV averages 5.5 miles per kWh. Every kWh costs me 0.11 cents. Doing the math, driving for 1000 miles costs me $20.
So despite the cheapness of diesel, it is still 34.30$ cheaper to commute to and from work with my EV.
Once the 200 mile Chevy Bolt is available in 2017, I will use my TDI as a downpayment towards the Bolt. If that is not available, then I will get the Chevy Volt. Its 53 mile range is perfect for my to and from work round trip.
But Full EV is my preference. It is economical, its cost of maintenance is 1/3 less than an ICE car, and in states where energy is produced from Natural Gas and renewable like CA it is less polluting. In CA, you will eventually have to get an electric car. so might as well start now.

11 cent per KH? I'll bet by the time you add utility tax it's more than that. Without solar?
In the summertime unless we don't use A/C I'm well into the third tier here in DWP land at 24 cents once I add in all the tax. Edison and PG&E are worse.
Still it only costs me about 2.40 to drive my Volt for 40-45 miles. Winter rates will be cheaper since there won't be a third tier. We never need to use the Volt on gas as it's the local car. The TDI Passat is the distance car.
I agree though. Electric is the way of future transportation, but the masses are still limited to short range vehicles. Tesla isn't an option for most. The Volt is the next best thing.
In the meantime, there isn't a better more economical highway car than a TDI Passat
Bottom line though, I have both because they use less energy, not because they're cheaper. In each case I could have gotten more conventional car for the money.

NYC-TDI · Sep 19, 2015

eddie_1 said:
VW had the people's interest at heart

Say what? I have never felt that VW had my interests at heart in any of my dealings with them. Does VW have the people's interest at heart when they are denying HPFP coverage to those unfortunate enough to experience one out of warranty? Did VW have my interests at heart when they REPEATEDLY denied me, over a period of over 2 years, the TSB intercooler fix?

VW is a corporation like any other. Their interests lie in profits not in peoples hearts.

no-blue-screen · Sep 19, 2015

The thing I keep coming back to is they cheated. Makes me wonder what else they cheated on.

LRTDI · Sep 19, 2015

I had a tdi back on my shortlist for springtime purchase. I thought that TSI vehicles were becoming more common recently. Perhaps this is why.
Willing to bet the EPA will order ( if it legally can) a stop sale on all tdi powered vehicles.

Watch for big drop in TDI resale values.

cfm56 · Sep 19, 2015

...so if a ecu upgrade due to a recall lowers actual MPG ... I would think this is grounds for a class action lawsuit for purchasing a vehicle that does not perform (MPG wise) what was advertised. For the money VW may potentially pay to our FED gov, I think we the consumer who got screwed should get compensated and or be offered to purchase our TDI back. How does the FED gov getting all that money actually help with anything?

Stealth TDI · Sep 19, 2015

???

rotarykid said:
And on the drivers driving around something plugged into the OBD port, it's very likely that this line of code is the reason you are seeing lower than average mpgs. I would say unplug your OBD device and see if mpgs go up, you will have the answer......

I'm surprised no one has commented on this. One person speculated that the car "knows" it's being tested if it detects the wheels are not moving at the same speed (like on a dyno). The idea that it knows something is plugged into the OBD port is interesting. I have BT dongle inserted full time.

Now I'm curious.

Scott

vwUMO · Sep 19, 2015

On a sidenote... Open sourced software that intercepts OBDII data near real time and injects acceptable data is soon to be released. It's the raspberry pi version of "test mode" regardless of the changes to the ecu from what I am hearing. Rascal programmers and their clever antics

.

heidelberger75 · Sep 19, 2015

bhtooefr said:
http://engineering.berkeley.edu/2009/03/ozone-weekend-effect
Smog does cause serious health problems, and reducing nitrogen oxides does actually reduce smog (at least once you get them reduced below the peak level - the weekend effect being when they're above peak). (This is actually not how I thought things worked before, and I've now had to remove a link from my signature that went contrary to that.)
Also, nitrogen oxides can form acid rain.

Great article! Thanks. It highlights how important NOx reduction is when it comes to air pollution.

I live in Germany where half of all cars are diesel! Maybe that's why the mayor of Paris wanted to ban all diesels from the city.

SageBrush · Sep 19, 2015

Here is a little more of a similar discrepancy being found between regulatory and on-road Nox emissions from Europe:

Diesel vehicles in the EU are allowed a much higher NOx emission level than gasoline cars. In 2000, when the Euro 3 standard was introduced, the allowed level was 0.5 g/km, more than twice as much as for gasoline vehicles. Yet, as vehicle tests show, even back then the real on-road emission levels were closer to 1.0 g/km, i.e., much more than actually allowed by the standard. Still, the vehicles received their type-approval and could be sold, as the Euro emission standards have to be met under laboratory conditions only. Over time, emission limits got stricter, and the current Euro 5 emission standard sets a limit of 0.18 g/km for NOx diesel emissions. This is still more than three times as high as for gasoline vehicles, but of course much lower than back in 2000. However, recent research suggests that the on-road emissions did not really change at all during the last decade. The values measured are in the range of 0.8 g/km, only 20% lower than in 2000 and more than four times higher than allowed by the Euro 5 emission limit.

The on-road emission data comes from a study carried out recently by King’s College London and the University of Leeds for the UK government. In total, emissions data from more than 80,000 vehicles were analyzed, and the authors conclude: “In the case of light duty diesel vehicles it is found that NOx emissions have changed little over 20 years or so over a period when the proportion of directly emitted NO2 has increased substantially”. The UK study is not the only one arriving at these findings. A recently published paper by researchers from the European Commission’s Joint Research Centre (JRC) and IFEU institute summarizes on-road test results for a number of vehicles and comes to the conclusion: “The on-road NOx emissions of diesel cars, furthermore, appear to exceed substantially applicable emissions standards.” The authors even go one step further by raising doubts about whether the new Euro 6 emission standard, to be introduced in 2014, will solve the problem. It says: “Still, all tested cars, including the Euro 6 diesel car, exceed their NOx emissions standards on the road by 260 ±130%”.*

http://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/laboratory-versus-real-world-discrepancies-nox-emissions-eu

I'm going to be surprised if the cheat is not found in Europe as well, and ongoing for at least a decade.

no-blue-screen · Sep 19, 2015

LRTDI said:
Willing to bet the EPA will order ( if it legally can) a stop sale on all tdi powered vehicles.

Watch for big drop in TDI resale values.

Could be. Also could send them through the roof as the supply would be dried up.

VW messed up big time with this one. On a positive note it isn't a direct safety concern.

Tom Servo · Sep 19, 2015

heidelberger75 said:
Great article! Thanks. It highlights how important NOx reduction is when it comes to air pollution.

I live in Germany where half of all cars are diesel! Maybe that's why the mayor of Paris wanted to ban all diesels from the city.

I always thought it odd that congested and heavily urban Europe embraced diesels while wide-open and mostly rural Americas have shunned the diesels.

Outside a handful of geographically screwed urban areas like LA, diesel emissions should not be a major issue thanks to our spread out nature.

cfm56 said:
...so if a ecu upgrade due to a recall lowers actual MPG ... I would think this is grounds for a class action lawsuit for purchasing a vehicle that does not perform (MPG wise) what was advertised. For the money VW may potentially pay to our FED gov, I think we the consumer who got screwed should get compensated and or be offered to purchase our TDI back. How does the FED gov getting all that money actually help with anything?

A class action claiming what, exactly? That your car is no longer exceeding the EPA numbers but merely meeting them, something many gassers have a hard time doing.

Or would it be over a theoretical shortened lifespan of the emissions equipment, none of which has a proscribed (?) lifespan to begin with beyond the standard emissions warranty?

I'm not sure how far one could get in a claim like this, even if they went after the claim of "clean diesel", because it's non specific and relative.

But... IANAL.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

DriverJon · Sep 19, 2015

Keith63 said:
Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks

1) Despite the astonishing volumes of guesswork on here so far, NOBODY KNOWS.... *IF* the recall from VW, released a month or so ago was to fix this issue (something ALSO NOBODY KNOWS) then the MPG impact is barely noticiable or possibly a positive increase.

2) CANT PREDICT THE FUTURE... have to wait and see.

3) In some areas, the VW update letter stated it was conditional to have the update, for your registration to be renewed.

Till someone who knows/works deeply in diesel emissions, probably VW diesel emissions, chimes in here, or we get a formal description of the tech details out of VW/EPA, there's no solid way to answer #1. I'd put a bet on VW employees getting a memo to not talk about this to outsiders till things settle...

Since neither are likely, we have to wait and see, and have people who did it log milage and see what happens. Who knows, maybe it IS the VW update and it DOESN'T lower your mileage or performance? But, again, see answer #1...

dougfields23 · Sep 19, 2015

Does this mean a full recall or just another ecu update?

Coal Roller · Sep 19, 2015

SOOOO! How many are going to go in for the "recall"? What about those owners that have had Malone or some other "tuning" done to their vehicles? It's going to be an interesting "wait and see" just what transpires.

guscost · Sep 19, 2015

Drivbiwire said:
Not true, VW will simply increase dosing of Urea, instead of 1 gallon every 4000 miles, expect 1 gallon every 3000-3500 miles.

Non issue on SCR engines.

Just curious, if the urea dosing is all they change, does that mean no extra unburned fuel potentially fouling up the DPF or turbo or whatever the case may be? Would it affect mileage?

I have very little idea how the ad blue stuff works (or the engine in general I guess) but it is only used to react with the NOx somewhere along the way, no?

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Ted Hurst · Sep 19, 2015

I've always wondered how VW was the first to market with the Clean Diesels without SCR.

It reminds me of a sales seminar I attended back in 2009ish on the MaxxForce enginges. They claimed their non SCR and heavy EGR systems to be a superior choice over urea because Customers would not want to add or deal with urea. These engines did not meet the NOx standards but since Navistar (International) had been building credits before the 2010 standard went into effect they figured they would eventually get it right. They never got it right and suffered major emmission component failure due to overheating. Long story short. They had close to four billion dollars of warranty claims for emission system failures and ended up going to SCR.

http://www.ccjdigital.com/class-action-suit-claims-navistar-concealed-maxxforce-defects-seeks-damages-for-08-13-buyers/

Philpug · Sep 19, 2015

I agree. The only one that will make here is the EPA. Us the owners are last.

bhtooefr · Sep 19, 2015

Revpeach said:
I'm wondering if the vagcom cable can turn on and off the "switch?"

No, read the EPA document.

Driving exactly at the speeds in this graph, with the steering straight ahead the entire time, at the right ambient pressure flips the switch:

bhtooefr · Sep 19, 2015

You can't post an image like that, you need to upload the image to a server (either the TDIClub pics server, or another server), and put the URL in, not the image itself.

jhinsc · Sep 19, 2015

DrSmile said:
I worry about the town cop pulling me over now when they read this and asking if I had the "fix" completed on my diesel. They won't care if it's an 05, and the state laws regarding smoke emissions are so vague that they will be able to give me a ticket regardless. Diesels are likely to become a target of the eco-crowd too, I can see some of these nuts vandalizing TDIs to keep them off the road...

You worry too much

meerschm · Sep 19, 2015

this is for post #444. quote from the referenced letter.

Borsig · Sep 19, 2015

so riddle me this then -

if the emissions system activates when it sees NOx...

And the "switch" activates the emissions system 100% of the time when the car is being tested....

Is this not something to ensure the vehicle passes the test 100% of the time, and not something that is "needed" like a crutch to reduce levels?

in other words - if there is no NOx, why would the system be on in the first place? It seems possible that this was only an "insurance" cheat to make sure they didnt fail the test, rather than something they needed to do to pass.

04Passat · Sep 19, 2015

Recall

If I don't permit the recall, the DMV might not allow me to register vehicle when the time comes?

jhinsc · Sep 19, 2015

Keith63 said:
Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks

Don't know if anyone specifically answered your questions, but here goes:
1) Your Jetta was NOT advertised to get 53 mpg, so IF your mileage goes down after a recall repair, but it's the same or higher than EPA stated mpg's, then you have no recourse.
2) Read answer to #1.
3) You won't receive a letter from the EPA - never happened in the past. EPA put's the onus on automakers to take care of the problem. If they see VW is not being aggressive enough to comply, they will provide more "enticements" to VW in the way of fines, or withholding certifications of certain vehicles, or order an immediate "stop-sale" order until the problem is being resolved to their satisfaction.

VW has a big job ahead of them. They need to handle the PR right to avoid backlash from the current owners and the buying public who may have been considering anew VW, and now may go elsewhere.

LRTDI · Sep 19, 2015

Tom Servo said:
I always thought it odd that congested and heavily urban Europe embraced diesels while wide-open and mostly rural Americas have shunned the diesels.

Tables turned in the last few years with a strong anti diesel movement in at least the UK. Bro in UK was very worried that his diesel Smax was going to have to be sold due to tightening regulations.

He got lucky. It was totaled when parked....

lt2334 · Sep 19, 2015

AmericanLocomotive said:
It's done all the time. If the vehicle still has a functioning catalyst and O2 sensors, their NOx emissions are well controlled. Hell Popular Mechanics did it recently just for kicks with a Ford Raptor, and there was less NOx coming out of the tailpipe than the ambient air in the city they were in.
Increased SCR dosing won't help the LNT-equipped TDIs.
It's not just violations for failing to meet emissions, they have software that actively cheats the emissions tests. They're liable to be fined over $35,000 for every TDI they've sold since '09. Then there's the recall costs, which could be catastrophically high if hard parts need to be changed (might be very possible for LNT equipped vehicles). Then there are going to be lawsuits for lost resale value. God-forbid the reflashed TDI's don't meet their fuel economy targets either, because that's another round of lawsuits right there.
VW only moves about 80k TDIs a year. At most there's a few thousand 2016 TDIs at port right now. The storage costs of a few thousand cars is NOTHING compared to the monumental amount of trouble VW is facing right now.
Up to $18 Billion in just EPA fines + Recall Costs + Lawsuits

You forgot about the lawsuits because they marketed it as a clean car and now find out it was polluting the environment at 40 times standards.

bhtooefr · Sep 19, 2015

Borsig said:
so riddle me this then -

if the emissions system activates when it sees NOx...

And the "switch" activates the emissions system 100% of the time when the car is being tested....

Is this not something to ensure the vehicle passes the test 100% of the time, and not something that is "needed" like a crutch to reduce levels?

in other words - if there is no NOx, why would the system be on in the first place? It seems possible that this was only an "insurance" cheat to make sure they didnt fail the test, rather than something they needed to do to pass.

Let's refer to what Volkswagen claimed about the functioning of the CBEA/CJAA's NOx storage catalyst system, in SSP 826803. Page 67 (PDF page 71) is where discussion of that system starts.

The second lambda sensor, which is placed downstream of the NOx catalytic converter, detects an excess of reduction medium in the regeneration phase. This is used to determine loading and the aging condition of the NOx catalytic converter.

Yes, the first sensor is used to help determine the models used to determine how much NOx is being stored in the cat, but they could have easily used fraudulent models in the road maps. Then, actual cat loading is only detected during a regeneration, so doing regenerations less often, and skewing the cat loading estimates down would be sufficient to hide what they did. The system (when operating in dyno maps, anyway) is definitely not reacting to stored NOx, though, it's modeling how much NOx it thinks is in there and regenerating when it thinks the cat is full, and seeing how much reduction medium comes out the other end to determine whether the model was right.

Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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