Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

thank you for the quick replies. I love my my car.in the past 2 months I drove from nj to Miami. and from nj to myrtle beach sc. car ran great and I got high 40s mph. I hope it stays this way.

pkhoury said:

You're absolutely right. I was born and raised in CA, but you're still right, I shouldn't bash it. Yup, California has plentiful water resources right now, a strong economy, and lots of jobs. I heard Nissan is opening a new plant somewhere in Southern California. The best part is there are no threats from natural disasters such as earthquakes or fires, as you would find with other states, state income tax and property tax is low, and you can do 75mph on the freeway. So you're right - I should stop bashing CA.

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Might be a better state is you moved out

pkhoury said:

You're absolutely right. I was born and raised in CA, but you're still right, I shouldn't bash it. Yup, California has plentiful water resources right now, a strong economy, and lots of jobs. I heard Nissan is opening a new plant somewhere in Southern California. The best part is there are no threats from natural disasters such as earthquakes or fires, as you would find with other states, state income tax and property tax is low, and you can do 75mph on the freeway. So you're right - I should stop bashing CA.

Also, if you could kindly post a citation that states California has the 7th largest economy in the world (that's current within the last year), that would be most appreciated.

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Is Bloomberg Business good enough for you? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...overtakes-brazil-with-companies-leading-world

jorpet said:

While it is true that cars sold in WA have to meet CARB regulations, we don't test diesels, so it really only applies to new cars, not an ongoing emissions test issue.

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Not even "New" cars are required to test. I posted a link above about WA's emission testing. Basically their law is as long as the car is 50 state compliant, you can sell it, new, in Washington.

LogicBomb said:

But Washington has very unCARB caveats. For example;

The following vehicles never need emission tests:

Motorcycles

2009 and newer models (All vehicles 2009-Present)

Toyota Prius and Honda Insight

All diesel powered passenger vehicles weighing less than 6,001 pounds

All diesel vehicles model year 2007 and newer, regardless of weight.

They also have a rolling 25 year rule, in that any car over 25 years old doesn't require emission testing for registration. California is stuck with the pre-1975 rule.

http://www.emissiontestwa.com/e/faq.aspx#3

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Well you'd definitely hate Michigan. We don't test anything. When we did it was confined to southeast MI and it was a corrupt and crime ridden mess, which is why we got rid of it.

johnboy00 said:

Among other things, it senses steering motion. You haven't activated it.

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What sensors are in the car that detect steering motion, and why would the ECU care (other than cheating on the EPA test)?

Shife said:

Well you'd definitely hate Michigan. We don't test anything. When we did it was confined to southeast MI and it was a corrupt and crime ridden mess, which is why we got rid of it.

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I never said I "hated" anything. Just listing the examples of CARB "standards" adopted by other states. Washington is the only one I know of because I used to live there.

Always in test mode?

pkhoury said:

Same here. Highest I ever got was 42.6, but that was driving along I-10 between CA and TX (and I got it on 2 tanks). I usually get 36-39 on long trips, except my current trip, when the car is loaded good, along with a full roof rack - then my average is about 28. Normal everyday driving yields about 33-35

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Since the emissions issue started I have been curious about the same thing. My average was always around 40 mpg, although I have seen 50 mpg on the MFI for brief periods. The highest I ever attained was on a trip from Williamsburg, VA to PA, about 48.5 mpg. In the winter I commonly average in the high 30s, humid summer days around 40, and on days with good air quality about 42.

Mine is also a 2010 Jetta, no mechanical or computer mods, just rabid home-based maintenance above some of the recommended intervals.

ericy said:

What sensors are in the car that detect steering motion, and why would the ECU care (other than cheating on the EPA test)?

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Two possibilities - there's a steering angle sensor that the stability control uses to know what way the driver wants the vehicle to go (and then there may be engine power demand changes requested by the stability control system). There's also going to be sensing of how much torque is applied to the steering, which will cause electric assist (and therefore alternator load) to be added in response, which may cause a slight increase in engine power demand to make it seamless for the driver.

Both stability control (ESP) and electric power steering are standard on all affected TDIs.

dst5 said:

Might be a better state is you moved out

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Maybe and maybe not. I just make sure to buy plenty of fuel in AZ or NV before coming in, and change low flow showers to high flow. 2.5gpm doesn't cut it for me. The only reason my vehicle is registered in CA is because of the super cheap insurance rates I get.

ericy said:

What sensors are in the car that detect steering motion, and why would the ECU care (other than cheating on the EPA test)?

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Steering angle sensor. Usually mounted somewhere in the column. Used in conjunction with SIR (airbag) and ABS (stability) modules, and apparently in the case of VW to assist in detecting when testing was being performed.

Claudio said:

So...in case there would be a buyback...how long do you think it will take before it happens?

Just asking because in the coming months i have to do brakes and tires

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I'd try to hold off on the tires. If they drop a DEF tank and pump in where the spare tire was, they might buy you 4 new run-flat tires as compensation.

I really don't see any other way around this. The cars are very space efficient, so it's otherwise hard to find a spot to put it.

They need SCR to have a prayer at getting close on meeting emissions requirements. Retrofitting an SCR system isn't as hard as some other options, as long as you're doing hundreds of thousands of them and can gain economies of scale in the production of parts. The SCR catalyst goes on after everything else, so it's a quick exhaust pipe cut and clamp to install. It has relatively little effect on other aspects of the system, so it's not likely to increase other warranty/maintenance costs by increasing load on the DPF. It will leave power, torque, and fuel economy unaffected, so owners won't be upset. It might even let them claim an increase in MPG. The only loss to us owners is the spare tire and the time while it's in the shop. I'd like a choice of $1,000 or a warranty extension for my trouble. And maybe a set of run-flat tires/wheels.

dst5 said:

Nullification is a fraud try it your cell mate will be the guy who says the income tax is unconstitutional

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Tell that to the pot heads in colorado and other states

WINTERKORN is gone and VW is looking for a new BOSS, maybe Piech or even Mr. PORSCHE

jbmill3 said:

I have a 2014 JSW TDI with only 16000 miles on it. I love the car and I had planned to run it into the ground but now this news has changed my plans. Here is my question: should I trade now for a 2016 GSW TSI? Or am I going to be better off financially waiting for several months (or years) to see how this plays out? I could wait to see if there is a possible buyback/trade-in incentive and switch to a GSW TSI at that time. I am going to get hosed if I trade now but I'm worried I will be even more hosed if I wait and there is a recall that cripples performance. Angry that I have to even think about this.

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Thinking about this more I guess I am better waiting... If I trade now I would possibly forfeit whatever compensation I am due. I'm just angry.

Dons_TDI said:

Since the emissions issue started I have been curious about the same thing. My average was always around 40 mpg, although I have seen 50 mpg on the MFI for brief periods. The highest I ever attained was on a trip from Williamsburg, VA to PA, about 48.5 mpg. In the winter I commonly average in the high 30s, humid summer days around 40, and on days with good air quality about 42.

Mine is also a 2010 Jetta, no mechanical or computer mods, just rabid home-based maintenance above some of the recommended intervals.

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I don't think I got much better before I got my basic Stage 1 tune. I tend to do a lot of highway driving, though. I've already been cross country on two round trips, from CA to TX about a dozen and a half times, and this particular trip has taken me from TX -> NM -> AZ -> So Cal -> Nor Cal -> NV -> UT -> ID -> WY -> CO, and today I'll go through KS and OK before going back to TX. The best mileage I got was while I was in Florida doing my graduate research. Since it's so darn flat, I was averaging about 36-39, but speed limits top out around 55mph (usually more like 45-50, but 70 on I-95).

I, too, do my own maintenance, with some things before the scheduled intervals, like the timing belt, air filters, etc. This time, I'll be over by about 1500 miles until I finish this trip, to change my fuel filter and oil/oil filter change.

I've owned a 2009 Jetta TDLie and now own a 2014 Jetta TDLie.

A Canadian law firm is launching a class action. What would be the pluses and minuses of adding my name to this action?

Thanks

jbmill3 said:

Thinking about this more I guess I am better waiting... If I trade now I would possibly forfeit whatever compensation I am due. I'm just angry.

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Why would you be angry.... Wait what the other Car Manufacturer did.... Did you forget, what GM did? Toyota? etc???

totitan said:

Im tired of the constant CA bashing and name calling.
CA has the 7th largest economy in the world, and 38.8 million people. That is eleven million more than Texas. To not take the lead in reducing emissions would be irresponsible.

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Go ahead and take the lead, just keep it within your state. No reason the remaining 290+ million of us in the US should be forced to follow if we don't want to. With 28 million of that living within 3 totally congested cities (SF, LA, SD) they should have nor right to "rule" the rest of the country.

TwinWagons said:

I'd try to hold off on the tires. If they drop a DEF tank and pump in where the spare tire was, they might buy you 4 new run-flat tires as compensation.

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With that being said, how much do run-flat tires run new? And what kinds of punctures would they NOT be able to handle? I do a lot of highway driving, on long distances. Sometimes, I might not have ANY cellphone reception for 20-40 miles at a time, so if something were to ruin a run-flat, I'm screwed. I'm also not wild about spending more than $200 per tire new for this car.

I really don't see any other way around this. The cars are very space efficient, so it's otherwise hard to find a spot to put it.

They need SCR to have a prayer at getting close on meeting emissions requirements. Retrofitting an SCR system isn't as hard as some other options, as long as you're doing hundreds of thousands of them and can gain economies of scale in the production of parts. The SCR catalyst goes on after everything else, so it's a quick exhaust pipe cut and clamp to install. It has relatively little effect on other aspects of the system, so it's not likely to increase other warranty/maintenance costs by increasing load on the DPF. It will leave power, torque, and fuel economy unaffected, so owners won't be upset. It might even let them claim an increase in MPG. The only loss to us owners is the spare tire and the time while it's in the shop. I'd like a choice of $1,000 or a warranty extension for my trouble. And maybe a set of run-flat tires/wheels.

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It would be curious if VW went this route, and if it also required an ECM flash. Of course, DEF would be one more thing I'd have to buy. I'm assuming that the DEF sold at truck stops works in the DEF system on the Passat?

bhtooefr said:

It's worth noting that for heavy duty engines (diesels above 8500 GVWR, gassers that are not considered "passenger vehicles" above 8500 GVWR, all gassers above 10,000 GVWR), you can choose to certify either the engine or the chassis. If you certify the engine, you're held to 0.2 g/bhp-hr for US, 0.1 g/bhp-hr (or less if you want NOx credits) for California, I believe. If you certify the chassis, and it's 8500-10,000 GVWR, it's held to 0.2 g/mi (a lot more than the 0.07 g/mi a TDI is allowed, yes, but a lot LESS than the as high as 1.4 g/mi that a CKRA makes, or 2.8 g/mi that a CBEA/CJAA makes). If it's 10,000 to 14,000 GVWR, it's held to 0.4 g/mi.

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I've seen emissions per energy in other places too outside the US. I'm glad they seem to be going to emission amount per distance per vehicle model. Easier for me to follow

My post above was in response to the fellow who thought that the higher MPG of his diesel car improved his reported NOx emissions. It does not.

Question for you: if the emission is stated as amount per energy, what energy is being measured ? My first guess was energy per gallon fuel volume but my arithmetic did not make sense.

bring said:

I expect a flash will be able to fix the EA288 engine (2015 models)

http://pics3.tdiclub.com/data/517/820433_EA288.pdf

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I've read conflicting reports such as:

Other diesel engines in the VW Group are said to carry the same software package, but without any effect on emissions output. The problem only pertains to the EA189.

In a statement released tonight, Volkswagen said its current family of Euro 6-compliant diesels (to which the EA288 belongs) are not equipped with the emissions-cheating software

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.

Everything I am reading now is the EA288 has the software, but no effect on the emissions. The original report that discussed Vehicle B with SCR was not a EA288, it was EA189 + SCR (Passat).

As far as I've read from other places, the reason that EA288 and model year 2015 cars are affected is because they have the same software... whether or not it has any effect on the emissions the EPA does not care - they still ordered halt on sales until they can verify.

This California chat is so totally off topic...

I am interested in seeing what other companies under the magnifier would have.

CA Smog testing question

Granted, the California process has been that of simply plugging, under the left dash, in and their reading the result. No tail pipe insertion/reading results.

Does anyone know if, in California I can ask for that type of test, whereby the tail pipe process would be used. In California, one can ask for a 'test' only process, prior to having an official test. I would like to learn just at what level the tail pipe is actually producing and if there are negative results.

As I keep a rather large spreadsheet on the car, which covers everything related to the car's engine exhaust output, I would like to get a pure accurate reading. I just don't know what to ask for. Appreciate any input; in advance, thank you.

Does all of this have to do with the recent recall they pulled on my Jetta, lost 150 rpms at highway cruising speed and boost. Now the check engine light is always coming on with code P2002. The exhaust particulate junk.

ericy said:

What sensors are in the car that detect steering motion, and why would the ECU care (other than cheating on the EPA test)?

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Stability control (ESP).

jbmill3 said:

I have a 2014 JSW TDI with only 16000 miles on it. I love the car and I had planned to run it into the ground but now this news has changed my plans. Here is my question: should I trade now for a 2016 GSW TSI? Or am I going to be better off financially waiting for several months (or years) to see how this plays out? I could wait to see if there is a possible buyback/trade-in incentive and switch to a GSW TSI at that time. I am going to get hosed if I trade now but I'm worried I will be even more hosed if I wait and there is a recall that cripples performance. Angry that I have to even think about this.

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If I had a TDI related remorse on the ethical side of the Emissiongate, I would never spend my money on a VW product again. If they fudged on the TDI ECU programming, what's the guarantee they don't have the same process in place for programming the gas Engines.

At the end of the day this issue has to do with business practices more so than with pollution, emissions, fuel consumption, etc....

There must have been a meeting where a "smart" IT guy said, how about if we write this code and then we can sell the TDI in the US? And the management said "Yeah, Let's do it!" The ousted CEO claims he was not in such a meeting and he probably wasn't.

quad0584 said:

Does all of this have to do with the recent recall they pulled on my Jetta, lost 150 rpms at highway cruising speed and boost. Now the check engine light is always coming on with code P2002. The exhaust particulate junk.

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Sort of, but not really.

No you didn't.

Your problem is a cracked DPF. There is a lot of information on this in the Mk6 Jetta forum, and depending on how many miles are on your car, it should be covered under warranty.