The downside of Europe love for diesels

M

mickey

Guest
Considering that European gasoline standards are much higher than they are in the U.S., this is a good thing for us! Sulphur is a problem in gasoline just like in diesel fuel, and the U.S. allows much more sulphur than Europe. Ever drive behind a gasser and nearly pass out from the reek of brimstone spewing from the tailpipe? That's the sulphur.

-mickey
 

GotDiesel?

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 11, 2000
Location
Pacific NW
TDI
2001 Jetta GLS
Hmmm, I almost never can smell gasser exhaust any more.

In the old days, the gasser exhaust, particularly on a car running rich, was just about enough to make you pass out, while the diesel exhaust was sweet.

Now there are very few gassers than run rich (most are classics out for a weekend spin...) and almost all others are virtually odorless.

Meanwhile, the exhaust coming out the tail of my TDI is not at all sweet (in fact at times it's downright acrid) and I can't imagine what things would smell like in a congested area if 50% of the cars were TDIs or equivalent.

We really need better diesel fuel here pronto or there will be more serious anti-diesel backlash.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
The main downside with Europe's love for the diesel is that their exportatation of gasoline to the United States is soaring these last ten years, especially these last two years, since they now have such an over abundance of gasoline that no one wants......

This helps keep the price of gas down here to keep the sale of SUV's up, and this is terrible news. European diesels are supporting American gasholes


Too bad we can't get some of that good refined European diesel fuel over here too....


[ October 28, 2002, 09:03: Message edited by: SkyPup ]
 

snoopis

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Location
Arlington, TX, USA
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2002 Golf GLS TDI, 5spd
If it keeps the price of Gasoline down, that's all good. I moved back from Germany about a year ago, and one of the reasons (not the main reason) that I rerturned was becuase I didn't want to live somewhere that you were FORCED to buy a diesel car.
About 5000 miles ago I bought my 02 Golf TDI, not because I had to, but because as an engineer I appreciate what the TDI is. I bought it beucase I wanted to. The same reason someone else might by an SUV. Unlike in Germany, we are free to make this choice.
I think the arrival of new diesel engines here in the future will gain appeal quickly, without the issue being forced. But the key is that they have to keep the cost of the diesel upgrade down. No one will pay the cost of an Expedition just to get an Explorer with a diesel. But if the cost is relatively close to a gasser, they will sell. We shouldn't be buying them only to save money (although it helps!), so the argument of the cost paying off doesn't appeal to me. We should want diesels in order to reduce the use of non-renewable resources.

just my two cents..

edit: i forgot to add that my friend in Germany has been driving a Golf with a new 1.6L gasser that gets mileage about half-way in between the 2.0 and the TDI. It is naturally aspirated and has 110hp, does 220km/h. Hopefully more diesel's will make it here before engnies like this arrive, or everything I just said goes out the window.

[ October 28, 2002, 09:39: Message edited by: snoopis ]
 

SwimmerDave

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Decatur, GA
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2014 JSW 6MT
Originally posted by snoopis:
edit: i forgot to add that my friend in Germany has been driving a Golf with a new 1.6L gasser that gets mileage about half-way in between the 2.0 and the TDI. It is naturally aspirated and has 110hp, does 220km/h. Hopefully more diesel's will make it here before engnies like this arrive, or everything I just said goes out the window.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not worried about this engine. I'm betting that 1.6L gasser only has somewhere around 110 ft-lbs. of torque, which is very little considering how heavy the A4s are. Most drivers, myself included, would prefer 90hp @ 155 ft-lbs. over 110hp @ 110 ft-lbs. any day of the week.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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Canada
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Originally posted by snoopis:
I moved back from Germany about a year ago, and one of the reasons (not the main reason) that I rerturned was becuase I didn't want to live somewhere that you were FORCED to buy a diesel car.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nobody is "forced" to buy ANYTHING. You as the consumer decide with your wallet. There are no external forces other than economic compelling people to buy gas vs. diesel. I say this not as someone who has lived there (albeit under the umbrella of US military forces) but as someone who frequently visits there and pays particular interest in the country.

And the linked article seemed to conveniently omit the fact that while Diesel fuel is taxed less, Diesel cars are subject to a higher rate of tax at the time of purchase, in the order of $2500 euros or more, such that a return on investment can only be realized when the vehicle is driven >30k kilometers per year.

As a rule, I am against huge amounts of taxation, but if it instills some sense of conservation and make more reasonable consumption habits, then heck yeah I'd gladly pay a bit more in consumption taxes in return for better roads, education, and law enforcement!

[ October 28, 2002, 10:37: Message edited by: TDIMeister ]
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Funny how this showed up in the front page of the WSJ just today!


I was going to ask for nhmikes permission to post, but figured who cares anyhow ...


Europe's embrace of diesel-powered cars is helping to fuel America's sport-utility vehicles.

The drive to diesel -- in everything from big Mercedes-Benz sedans to tiny Smart cars -- has left Europe with a glut of gasoline, and refiners there are routinely unloading much of that excess across the Atlantic. European gasoline exports to the U.S. have shot up 82% since 2000, helping to keep U.S. gasoline prices steady even as prices for crude oil -- from which gasoline is refined -- have bounced around in response to world events.

"We have become the dumping ground for surplus gasoline from Europe," said Larry Goldstein, president of Petroleum Industry Research Foundation, a New York-based energy consulting firm. "Europe is no longer just a marginal supplier to the U.S."

European refiners say the U.S., where consumers have failed to accept diesel with the same enthusiasm as the French, Italians and Germans, is the only market that can handle the quantities of excess gasoline that Europe produces.

Indeed, in the wake of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, Americans are traveling more by car and less by air, and the popularity of gas-guzzling SUVs continues almost unabated. Even the most fuel-efficient gasoline car sold in the U.S., the subcompact Honda Civic HX, which gets 44 miles to the gallon on the highway, can't quite muster the 50 miles per gallon of the diesel engine in the heavier and roomier VW Jetta Wagon, which is available in the U.S.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
US refiners are raving mad about this development of the Europeans dumping their gasoline over here since it is depressing their margins and profits, all the big oil companies are going into the red, even with the sky high prices which don't seem to be sustainable for much longer, meaning even more bad news for US refiners feeding legions of SUV's....
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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Location
Canada
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TDI
Leave it to G.W.B. to come to the rescue of his big oil buddies. I can see it now: Slap import tariffs on European gasoline (as the US has similarly done with softwood lumber, steel, bla bla bla) and then turn around and apply pressure on OPEC to open up the taps on the oil that the US consumes with wild abandon.


Edit: P.S. --

Originally posted by TDIMeister:
As a rule, I am against huge amounts of taxation, but if it instills some sense of conservation and make more reasonable consumption habits, then heck yeah I'd gladly pay a bit more in consumption taxes in return for better roads, education, and law enforcement!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I guess that makes me a liberal.



[ October 28, 2002, 14:52: Message edited by: TDIMeister ]
 

TEXAS_TDI

BANNED
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Glad to hear that gasoline prices will stay low. Helps me be able to afford my Super Unleaded guzzling 1.8T Passat.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Even the European gasoline is much much higher quality than US gasoline, higher in octane and lower in sulfur.

Same thing for their diesel fuels too, 20% higher in cetane and 5,000% lower in sulfur.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Originally posted by snoopis:
If it keeps the price of Gasoline down, that's all good. I moved back from Germany about a year ago, and one of the reasons (not the main reason) that I rerturned was becuase I didn't want to live somewhere that you were FORCED to buy a diesel car.
About 5000 miles ago I bought my 02 Golf TDI, not because I had to, but because as an engineer I appreciate what the TDI is. I bought it beucase I wanted to. The same reason someone else might by an SUV. Unlike in Germany, we are free to make this choice.
I think the arrival of new diesel engines here in the future will gain appeal quickly, without the issue being forced. But the key is that they have to keep the cost of the diesel upgrade down. No one will pay the cost of an Expedition just to get an Explorer with a diesel. But if the cost is relatively close to a gasser, they will sell. We shouldn't be buying them only to save money (although it helps!), so the argument of the cost paying off doesn't appeal to me. We should want diesels in order to reduce the use of non-renewable resources.

just my two cents..

edit: i forgot to add that my friend in Germany has been driving a Golf with a new 1.6L gasser that gets mileage about half-way in between the 2.0 and the TDI. It is naturally aspirated and has 110hp, does 220km/h. Hopefully more diesel's will make it here before engnies like this arrive, or everything I just said goes out the window.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just a tidbit for those interested: that 1.6L gas engine is a 16 valve, DOHC "FSI" engine, which is direct injected. It uses very high quality gasoline, which as I understand Volkswagen AG lobbied heavily to get available in Germany, but is not available all over Europe. And it does not sell well because the TDIs outperform it accross the board. Mitsubishi and Honda have similar direct gasoline injected engines available in certain markets, as well. It allows a super-lean mixture, but nowhere near as lean as a diesel.
 

AusSalzburg

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Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Location
Austria, Hallein, Kuchl
Snoopis wrote: edit: i forgot to add that my friend in Germany has been driving a Golf with a new 1.6L gasser that gets mileage about half-way in between the 2.0 and the TDI. It is naturally aspirated and has 110hp, does 220km/h. Hopefully more diesel's will make it here before engnies like this arrive, or everything I just said goes out the window.

I doesn't look like your friend was forced to buy the gasser?
What you say is not true. I'm back and forth in Germany and Austria and all my relatives freely choose their vehicle. Half of them have TDI's.
See ya, Michael.
 

JohnD

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Location
England
Following on from “GotDiesels” comment on exhaust fumes sometimes smelling acrid, I am not that convinced that the latest ultra low sulphur diesel fuels are that much better. Advertising hype would convey that they certainly are, but I encounter times where a passenger will open the door with the engine running and instantly the car is filled with an undesirable knock out stink. The major improvement that I have noticed is that when filling up the tank with ULSD it is almost odourless in comparison to past formulas.

Regards
John D
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Yes, that is what it is all about when it comes to CLEAN DIESEL FUEL TECHNOLOGY:

 
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