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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old September 28th, 2018, 10:05   #46
2000alhVW
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Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU View Post
I don't know how many chains you've personally replaced, but they tend to be a lot easier to jump time when they don't have adequate tension. Belts don't skip time very easily, believe it or not. And material science has allowed modern timing belts to last around 150,000 miles now, which to most engineers in the industry is the entire vehicle's "designed lifetime."
Belts are far cheaper and less labor intensive to replace as well. And to someone who wants to go well over 300,000 miles, you can ensure the engine stays better in time throughout that period when it's a belt. Any chain will eventually stretch and require replacement. The unfortunate thing with chains is there is no specified change interval and they will jump time largely without warning. Whereas a belt, if you simply change it on time, you simply don't have to worry about that little "what if".
I suspect why VW stubbornly clings to timing belts on the 4 cylinder diesels in particular is because of how much less prone belts are to skipping time with the harsh vibrations inherent to a 4 cylinder, high compression diesel engine. They stick with them because they are more reliable in this duty cycle if you're following manufacturer recommendations.
I suppose the only OHC chain 4 cylinder diesel that is reliable is the double chain Mercedes used to use a long time ago. Those are prone to eventual stretch as well, but having two chains certainly helped longevity and reliability.
Just wait until you realize Ford's Ecoboost 3 cylinder uses an oil-bathed timing belt!
Lol. Never replaced a timing chain, and likely never will.
You're losing me on the inconsistent logic here.

You say:
  • Timing belts are now able to last 150,000 miles
  • Timing belts are superior because they are much easier to change
  • Engineers consider the "designed lifetime" to be 150,000 miles
If the belt lasts the entire "Designed lifetime" then why worry about designing it to be 'easy to change'?

hint: 'designed lifetime' isn't 150,000 miles (at least for non-VW cars). Some parts may be designed to break after 150k, but the entire car is still good. This is for the buyers who justify their $35k purchase on "we're gonna drive the wheels off it!" If a car was only designed to be good for 150k, then the resale value would approach that of a Hyundai from 2001......

"Belts don't skip time very easily, believe it or not."

LOL right! They just break with zero warning causing this forum and craigslist to be littered with "driving on the highway, downshifted from 5th to 2nd (lol oops ), and SUDDENLY! no power???? I managed to coast to the shoulder, and now can't get car to restart. It sounds funny! "

"[timing chains] will jump time largely without warning."

Huh? Timing chains spend their entire lives stretching, according to you, then they jump time "without warning"???

Whereas a belt, if you simply change it on time, you simply don't have to worry about that little "what if".

Ahhh...the good ol' 'what if' that motivates people based on fear and paranoia. Such a self-serving bias. You can literally use it to justify ANYTHING.
"If you simply buy a new car every 3 years, you simply don't have to worry about that little "what if" your airbags went bad"

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Originally Posted by Powder Hound View Post
The reason the intakes clog on a direct injection gasser is the same reason the ALH intakes clog: soot from EGR and crankcase vapors creating sludge that sticks there. Direct injected gassers no longer have fuel in the intake charge air to wash the deposits off, so you get what we've battled for ages: clogged intakes.

Oh, and those wonderful and horribly expensive plastic water pumps are one of the big reasons my son sold their tig. Whoever says german engineers don't screw pooches is a fool.

Cheers,

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I think The Hound is taking pooch fornication pretty seriously here.

It's true though. Seems the gasoline being mixed with the air prior to the combustion chamber helped clean things up a bit, as gasoline is a solvent. When the fuel injector is moved into the cylinder (direct injection), it the fuel can't clean the valves.
This is a big reason why a lot of manufacturers have moved to DI, but kept the older port injection technology (count 'em! TWO fuel injection systems!) to help clean valves , aid in starting, and other emissions reasons.
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Originally Posted by truman View Post
Who makes a durable and reliable drive train today?
My girlfriend beats the piss out of her 2012 Camry daily... TIMING CHAIN MOTOR, BY THE WAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH
130k miles and no complaints.
I feel so bad for this car. It makes me cringe whenever I drive with her. She goes through tires in like 25k miles.
Her driving is literally 100% throttle - brakes - 100% throttle - brakes.
Parks on steep hills, never uses parking brake. When it jerks on the parking pawl, I die a little bit inside.
130k miles, zero motor problems. Original ball joints, tie rods, axles. I'm pretty sure nothing's ever been replaced except brakes and tires. There ain't a pothole in town this girl misses.
Oh, there was some weird issue with a torque converter lockup issue. Toyota extended the warranty to 150k miles and replaced the TC for free.

Oil changes typically escape her memory, must be why it has an oil change reminder light on the dash. God forbid this girl had to devote mental energy to worrying about a timing belt replacement. Good thing that's an issue of the past!
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Old September 30th, 2018, 19:17   #47
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I am speaking of all of them (read my post again). I am NOT nitpicking. The only reason the newest ones (again, like I said, phase in starting in 2014 depending on model) have not had as much problems is simply because they haven't been on the road as long. The crappy dumbass rear main seal design is STILL the exact same. The water pump is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing. Breather system is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing.

When you have to explain to someone why their 3 year old car needs its transmission pulled out, and it is out of warranty, trust me, there is no nitpicking.

By the way, the trade magazine "Der Fix" this month has several good articles about these all too common issues with EA888 engines.

And yes, there are certainly issues with diesel engines,.... They also do not have some idiotic plastic water pump housing bolted to the side of the block buried under the intake.
You have raised a fair number of points.

In a previous life, I made lubricants. I can strongly agree that shorter oil change intervals are NOT necessary except under special circumstances. IIRC, there is some data out there that the contamination of oil from the change is of greater significance than the contamination from a decently filtered oil in service. Speaking of which, changing filters at short intervals is about the worst thing you can do. Filters work best when they have built up a "filter cake" of filtrate on the surface of the medium. Really good filtration systems use a filter pressure differential system to define best time to change (have never seen such a thing in cars, but have in truck engines).

EA888 engines seem typical of VWs inability to do engineering thoroughly these days. I have one in the driveway now that my daughter bought, but I was too lazy and stupid to do the research on why one can not trust VW engineering any more - and it swallowed a few valves when the timing chain tensioner failed. I also measured the chain, and it was considerably longer than a timing chain of its relatively low mileage should have been. Pulley wear was also far worse than anything that age should have been. Yeah, maybe Toyota or even Trabant for that matter can make/buy/spec a timing chain that will last the lifetime of an engine, but VW/Audi can not.

Then there is the water pump. Have replaced two on that engine, since what is happening is that the "O" ring gasket material is NOT compatible with VW antifreeze, it absorbs the stuff and expands the gasket in its groove, and the very small bit of plastic that is supposed to contain the gasket is forced enough to crack and leak like a sieve. Yeah, I once again suppose that may be something that Honda or Tata can get right - but VW can not.

Rear main was something I just had to address. The idiotic piece of crap that VW installed is once more a fine example that all of the decent engineers in Germany seem to have emigrated to China or some damn place - because they sure as hell don't work for VW. I installed one of Issam's very nice seal kits and could not be happier with the quality of the part and the service of designing yet another fix for VWs progressive incompetence.
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Old October 1st, 2018, 04:18   #48
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Yep. It is really sad, isn't it? No idea why VAG felt they needed a "clean slate" engine anyway. But boy howdy did they fail miserably at this one. Fortunately, the diesel branch said "um, no", and just modernized the old engine mostly... right in time to have them banned from our shores.
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Old October 1st, 2018, 08:57   #49
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Yep. It is really sad, isn't it? No idea why VAG felt they needed a "clean slate" engine anyway. But boy howdy did they fail miserably at this one. Fortunately, the diesel branch said "um, no", and just modernized the old engine mostly... right in time to have them banned from our shores.
Yea right... the petrol engineers screwed up some designs and the diesel ones were too lazy to figure out how to NOT cheat on emissions so they just said ah screw it it's easier to put a defeat device... Don't act like the diesel engineers are any better then the petrol ones... Vw may have screwed the pooch on the gen 1 and 2 ea888 but they sure as hell ruined everything with their little software stunt on diesels... Please, stop defending vw's diesels as if they're the holy grail, they're not
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Old October 1st, 2018, 09:47   #50
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... Please, stop defending vw's diesels as if they're the holy grail, they're not
WHAT??? Oh, the horror! 19 years and a 3 digit member number on this forum wasted!!
PH
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Old October 1st, 2018, 09:53   #51
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WHAT??? Oh, the horror! 19 years and a 3 digit member number on this forum wasted!!
PH
What? What are you talking about?

Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did...
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Old October 1st, 2018, 09:57   #52
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What? What are you talking about?
Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did...
and that's when you finally lost me lol
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Old October 4th, 2018, 22:45   #53
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I'm getting a headache, this is why I shouldn't read entire threads before posting (bad Idea lol) anyhow my E46 with timing chain was still going strong at 380k km yes I know its a inline 6 and not a 4l.. I'm hoping to pickup a 2016 1.4 tsi tomorrow. I going to drive it and love it, maintain it and love it; if it breaks that would suck but life goes on. Apparently my BRM sucks compare to others VW so I might keep it or see if I can get $5 for it. If I have to leave this forum to get info that's what I'll do but I'm already here so..... lol


Someone asked something about oil, why are you bringing up old shyt...

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Old October 5th, 2018, 09:40   #54
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What? What are you talking about?
Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did...
What they did? Maybe same as

Dodge, Mercedes, Nissan, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Mazada, Subaru, GM , Renault,TOYOTA AND MANY MORE They've all been caught over past year and see much on the news?

Why join a forum which is mainly TDI and VW orientated?
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Old October 5th, 2018, 10:36   #55
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I have yet to run into any of the issues you speak of in the gen 3, along with many other people who own one of the two gen 3 engines. Time will tell but i'm not worried or paranoid like some...
You're not reading enough of the Mk7 forums/facebook groups.

Another one that scares me is balance shaft seals, similar oil weaping as a rear main seal but I think more complicated to correct.

I'm optimistic but with only 24K on my EA888.3 by no means am I going to say its a trouble free/reliable powerplant. While I'm also not parranoid I'd rather be realistic, I'll let you know at 100K if my opinion is different.

The cost cutting VW put into this "world wide" engine is pretty amazing, there are about 1/4 the sensors compared to a TDI, so the ECU is "guestimating" for parameters all the time, no MAF, no EGT just to name a few. Also VW is very happy at how thin they were able to design the block, something like 2mm in some areas, all to save a few ounces.

As for the timing chain/tensioners, I'm hoping for 100K before I start worrying about issues be it RMS, water pump, intake clogging, and hopefully 150K plus before I worry about anything timing related.
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Old October 5th, 2018, 12:00   #56
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What? What are you talking about?
Seriously, people need to stop putting vw and their tdis on a pedistal, especially after what they did...
They're on a pedestal because they deserve to be there. My enthusiasm for these engines is unaffected by shenanigans with the EPA and the courts.

When you read about the engine failures described in this thread and compare it to the longevity of a TDI (especially rotary pump ones), it's hard not to be impressed. We have multiple TDIs in my family with over 250K on them. Three of them have never had any major engine work done in all those miles, and stil deliver 40+ MPG consistently no matter how they're driven. I wonder what it would take one of these chain-driven TSIs to get to the 370K my son's ALH Golf has on it. The only engine work that car's had in its lifetime is new injector nozzles.

I managed to kill the ALH in my Wagon by making twice stock power with a 6000 RPM redline for 120K miles. at 295K it finally had some blowby, although it was still running fine and delivering great FE. And now, with 80K on its replacement engine, it's going strong. If I can keep the body from rusting I think I can drive this car indefinitely. Doesn't seem that there are many modern engines you can say that about. The EA288, although more complex, may prove to be equally durable, like the OM651 that's in a lot of Mercedes. Good engines are still out there. But it doesn't appear that VW TSIs are among them.
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Old October 5th, 2018, 12:25   #57
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To add to IndigoBlueWagon's point, there's a reason there's a reason Cummins chose to work with VW to make small marine diesel engines. Mercury and Mastercraft still use a lot of TDI engines in their marine applications, but will never touch the TSI.
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Old October 5th, 2018, 13:26   #58
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The older gasoline engines are pretty good, too, for the most part. The belt driven 4 cylinders anyway, especially those that share the same basic construction as the ALH/BEW/BHW/BRM/CBEA/CJAA, like the AWP, AWM, AVG, AZH, BEV, etc. My AWM has 230k miles on it, and despite pushing two tons of AWD Passat around through a slushbox, still makes good power and has never been apart aside from the valve cover gasket and the breather tubes. And it makes 170hp, just like a brand new 1.8L turbo does. I have several customers with 2.slo Jettas and Golfs and NBs with well over a quarter million miles... veru dependable, very durable. Use a little oil, but so long as you know how to use a dipstick it isn't a problem.... and that isn't any different than many other engines, including some of the EA888s that gulp down 5+ liters between services.
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