Grease car section?

BeetleGo

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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Location
Cambridge, MA
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5-door, 5-speed Golf GLS replaced BeetleGo.
Hi Fred,

Happy New Year to you from Boston. This site sure has grown over the years and 2006 promises to be a very interesting one, particularly with ULSD coming online (finally!). My best wishes to you and your fine efforts here.

Question/Suggestion:

Do you think perhaps it is time to add a Grease Car section to this place? It seems to me that the whole topic of using biofuels is expanding in the media and as a side-effect it's being reflected in the choices that our membership is making (i.e. we're seeing more greasers post).

Certainly there is the question of whether creating this section tacitly promotes/recommends doing such a thing. I'm not sure what your position on this is. I think a lot of TDI owners/club members - many with very credible technical backgrounds - would agree that it's probably NOT a good idea to use a TDI engine in this manner. But as long as this is clearly stated up front, it would at least provide a place to dicuss how to do the conversion properly and offer more focused discussion on the subject, especially the associated technical issues that crop up, etc. If this site is about sharing hard knowledge, it seems a worthwhile effort.

This would also help to reduce confusion in the biodiesel section between the two systems, since they really are two seperate worlds.

What do you think? Time for (yet another) new section to be added to this site in '06?

Best regards,

~BeetleGo
 
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GoFaster

Moderator at Large
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Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Taking into account the following factors (some of which you've touched on):

- Use of untreated vegetable oil is not approved by VW in any way, shape or form (biodiesel is, if only to a small percentage);
- Nor is its use as a road-legal fuel approved by EPA or DOT in the USA, nor by Transport Canada, nor are road taxes being paid, making the legality uncertain;
- Use of vegetable oil seems to greatly shorten the life of the injector pump on the distributor-pump TDI engines;
- Use of vegetable oil is completely inadvisable on pumpe-duse or common-rail engines (which are the future);
- Having a forum section to discuss it could be interpreted as implied approval (as you noted), regardless of the presence of disclaimers;

... I don't think it's a good idea to have a forum section devoted to this, or at least, not yet.

But what MIGHT be a thought is to have a sticky FAQ thread in the Biodiesel section that explains what the situation is, and refers people to other websites for their own research. That sticky FAQ should clearly state the legal and technical risks, it should explain what the difference between biodiesel and SVO/WVO is, and it should clearly tell people that if they have a common-rail or P-D engine (and refer them to how they can tell if they have one of these or not) then they should forget about using SVO/WVO at all. For the protection of the website, it needs to clearly state that the emission certification on these vehicles is performed using petroleum-based No. 2 diesel fuel, and that use of any other fuel is considered "misfueling" and the emission certification (and the warranty) is no longer valid.

I know that the promoters of SVO/WVO might not agree with all of this, but we have to be a bit conservative to protect us (the website) from liability, and I think that's the situation we are in. I'd love to use SVO/WVO myself, but the fact is that the vehicle isn't designed for it AT ALL.

You know the now-famous mantra, "You are your own warranty" that came from the performance section of the TDIFAQ, in which those words are repeated many times? Same thing applies here.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Of course, the biodiesel forums have SVO/WVO sections...

Seeing as SVO/WVO posts end up in the biodiesel section, why not rename that section to "Biofuels (Biodiesel, Straight/Waste Vegetable Oil)"?

Oh, and the disclaimer's a must.
 

robdesigns

Veteran Member
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Location
Back in gasoline - Central MA
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Read the whole post before you flame me:

GoFaster said:
I know that the promoters of SVO/WVO might not agree with all of this, but we have to be a bit conservative to protect us (the website) from liability, and I think that's the situation we are in. I'd love to use SVO/WVO myself, but the fact is that the vehicle isn't designed for it AT ALL.
You know the now-famous mantra, "You are your own warranty" that came from the performance section of the TDIFAQ, in which those words are repeated many times? Same thing applies here.
I do not see how WVO mods should be treated any different than chips, injectors, and boost valves. There are plenty of mantras in the performance section, but I do not see a sticky warning of impending doom. I would bet there are more cars damaged (engines, turbos, clutches....) by mods than WVO. There is a performance disclaimer located at the forum index. If a disclaimer is written, it should be written by both a supporter and a skeptic.
Anyone with a little mechanical sense knows that VW did not design these cars to run on WVO, and any "kit" that claims otherwise is stretching the truth. I am sure a more than a few of us are more interested in what the "system can do, not what it was meant to do" (Apollo 13).
While I feel the WVO should be treated little differently than mods, the people doing these things do so for very different reasons. Some like me have just enough mechanical knowledge to know this is probably a bad idea. But I am committed to using less petroleum and I will accept the consequences. I do not let anyone think I drive for free. I still burn a tank of B20 every 1500-2500 miles. I spend time and money processing oil. I have no illusions about what I am doing. Others think they will drive for free. These are the cheapskates who do not understand how the car works, much less how the WVO system works. They start WVO to soon, use it on short trips, collect the worst oil, and spend the least amount of time filtering and settling it. The car starts to break so they blame the system instead of blaming their own greed. These are the people who will be attracted to a WVO forum and tend to start new threads.
That being said, I do not think that there should be a WVO section. The few WVO posts created degenerate into flame fests anyway, that is why I seldom post in any of them. If some one is having a problem or question, I send a PM. If they just continue to complain like the guy from NC, I ignore them. Volume alone dictated the need for a biodiesel section which up till about a year ago was unbearable to read. I will not waste my time in a forum like that again.
My .02.
 

rez311

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA
TDI
A3 TDI White
I don't see why we should shoot down a WVO section.

Use of untreated vegetable oil is not approved by VW in any way, shape or form (biodiesel is, if only to a small percentage);
Sure we treat it. We filter it several times and heat it before injection. Some people get crazy with it and spin up 5 gallons at a time on a centrifuge to get the junk to the bottom.

Nor is its use as a road-legal fuel approved by EPA or DOT in the USA, nor by Transport Canada, nor are road taxes being paid, making the legality uncertain;
Drugs are illegal, but people still use them.
And $3.50 /gallon for diesel is a nice ream in my checking account @ 3,000 miles / month of driving... IN CALIFORNIA. Good luck enforcing WVO ban on commuter cars each time they get pulled over by a smokey bear.

Use of vegetable oil seems to greatly shorten the life of the injector pump on the distributor-pump TDI engines;
So does bad diesel. You need to heat WVO up to equal the viscosity of diesel (180F).

Use of vegetable oil is completely inadvisable on pumpe-duse or common-rail engines (which are the future);
It's very difficult to run WVO on such a precise and high pressure system.

Having a forum section to discuss it could be interpreted as implied approval (as you noted), regardless of the presence of disclaimers;
No it's not. It's not like we are street racing. Greasecar.com is online. I don't think anyone is bothering them...

Forums are designed for technical assistance. I think there is enough demand to make a WVO section worthwhile.
 

aberson

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Location
Hoboken NJ
TDI
2001 Golf TDI 4d Black/Tan
GoFaster said:
- Nor is its use as a road-legal fuel approved by EPA or DOT in the USA, nor by Transport Canada, nor are road taxes being paid, making the legality uncertain;

Hi all, I've been lurking here a while, first post. Currently shopping for a TDI of my own.

Does the EPA or DOT actually have to approve fuels on the road? Can somebody point something official about this?

The point about the road-tax seems sort of irrelevant: I don't think anybody with an electric car pays road tax on their home electric bill. Maybe I'm missing something there, but that's how I see it.

I'd also vote yes for a veggie section. Just because it may not be the best idea for you doesn't mean it's a bad idea for everybody. For one, if you have a half-dead motor anyway, then who cares about a little damage. It's obvious that tons of people are running veggie in TDI's and not having catastrophic failures. Maybe after 50, 100, 200k miles things will start showing up, and that's exactly where a forum would be great.

adam
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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aberson: IIRC, the EPA has to approve fuels that are SOLD for road use, but (again, IIRC - this is VERY grey area, but it's a grey area I'm going right into) homebrew fuels and the like are fine.

As for taxes... the IRS wants money, but (yet again, IIRC) the IRS isn't making it possible to pay them for homebrew biodiesel/SVO/WVO/etc./etc. Yet.
 

rez311

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA
TDI
A3 TDI White
I pay my road tax each year I pay for my registration. When they rape us on diesel, I burn the french fry grease those fata**es eat. :D
 

06golf82rabbit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Location
Iowa
TDI
2006 Golf
I know this is a bit off topic kind of so please excuse my ignorance.

I just purchased a 2006 Golf TDI and now I am under the impression that its not good to try and run SVO/WVO in it but am confused that some say that it MAY be possible.
My main confusion is that if the older injector pumps had lower injection pressure and the newer PD TDI's have a higher injector pressure pump then why can't VO be used in them. I mean if the lower pumps can atomize it so to speak then can't the higher pressure pumps atomize it even better.

I also have an 82 Rabbit Diesel and was wondering on the feasability of running SVO/WVO on that one. It has about 202k miles on it.
 

BeetleGo

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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Location
Cambridge, MA
TDI
5-door, 5-speed Golf GLS replaced BeetleGo.
O6, your question is off topic, but I'll try to answer it quickly here. In the future please free to open a fresh thread with a specific question if you can't find it already answered by using the search function that is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

I think this thread is pretty much tapped out, so no big deal. I'm just encouraging you to get a focused response to your question, which a seperate thread would promote.

The newer TDI's have smaller holes through which the fuel must flow through at the injectors - thus necessitating higher pressure to force the fuel through (think thumb at the end of a watering hose). You have to assume that the grease is virgin oil to remove contamination blocking up the injectors from the equation, not that people don't filter down to roughly equivalent standards.

But by the same token, you have to be much much more concerned about viscosity when asking the fuel pump to suck ever finer mists of oil through the injectors. Both issues - blocked injectors, and fuel that is too thick to be sucked through them efficiently spell heavy breathing by your fuel pump. Think stroke and heart attack. ;)

Your old Golf on the other hand sounds like a PERFECT project car for the job!!! Older, simpler diesels are just not as picky.

~BeetleGo
 
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GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
06golf82rabbit said:
I just purchased a 2006 Golf TDI and now I am under the impression that its not good to try and run SVO/WVO in it but am confused that some say that it MAY be possible.
My main confusion is that if the older injector pumps had lower injection pressure and the newer PD TDI's have a higher injector pressure pump then why can't VO be used in them. I mean if the lower pumps can atomize it so to speak then can't the higher pressure pumps atomize it even better.
To answer this in simple easy-to-visualize terms:

Go out to your garden hose. Turn the water on. Adjust the spray nozzle to give a nice fine atomized mist. No problem.

Now, switch the water off, drain the water out of the hose, and fill the hose up with something 15 times more viscous. Vegetable oil, for example. (I don't know if it's actually 15 times more viscous, but just bear with me - it will serve for illustration.) Then apply the same pressure. What happened to that nice fine atomized mist? It turned into a slow droopy dribble.

Okay, crank up the pressure. The droopy dribble dribbles a bit faster. Crank the pressure WAY up to try to compensate. KA-POW goes the garden hose from too much back pressure.

Some will argue that the temperature needs to be raised to make the viscosity into a comparable range. That's fine through the lines and the pump, but at the nozzle, that nozzle is exposed to combustion chamber temperature, and it runs hot even in normal operation. If you make it much hotter ... the vegetable oil starts to decompose and clog up the nozzles.
 

06golf82rabbit

Well-known member
Joined
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Location
Iowa
TDI
2006 Golf
Ok. thanks for clearing that up for me.

I do however once its paid for and the warranty is no good plan to do some experimenting with this car. (I have several others to fall back on in case I destroy this one) and actually prefer older to newer. It seems the newer cars are just becoming more and more junk to me.
 

bungy42

Veteran Member
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Oct 10, 2005
Location
Massachusetts
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'03 Jetta Wagon
I agree that a WVO section would be nice. It might help cut through the misinformation and help people "do it right". Robdesigns hit it right on the head with the Apollo 13 quote. Sure the VW might not be designed for it, but CAN it do it? And for how long? A WVO forum would definitely help clear up some of these questions. However, I've noticed that WVO posts do tend to develop into flame-fests. Perhaps along with a "you ARE your own warranty" disclaimer we could add a "if you're vehemently opposed to WVO, try to state your opinion nicely". :)
 

rez311

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GoFaster said:
Some will argue that the temperature needs to be raised to make the viscosity into a comparable range. That's fine through the lines and the pump, but at the nozzle, that nozzle is exposed to combustion chamber temperature, and it runs hot even in normal operation. If you make it much hotter ... the vegetable oil starts to decompose and clog up the nozzles.
There's no proof! Just speculation. Do some thermal heat transfer calculations Diesels don't run hot! Rotary engines do! :D

180 deg. WVO isn't going to kill injectors.
 

rez311

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What big troubles? There are no known issues with injector tips burning from hot WVO at 180 deg. F or below. I have never seen proof. Nobody ha provided any, except myths.
 

BeetleGo

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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Location
Cambridge, MA
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5-door, 5-speed Golf GLS replaced BeetleGo.
We seem to have lost focus here. This wasn't intended to be the very debate that will surely be commonplace in a grease section, if we have one.

That's the question though - should there be one?
 
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nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Location
Arizona
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SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
BeetleGo said:
Greaser forum-- should there be one? {paraphrased}[/quote]

Yes because there are so many grease threads polluting the biodiesel threads, which causes newbies to confuse grease for biodiesel--which is bad for diesels, bad for biodiesel, and even bad for the greaser community.

No because running grease in a modern diesel is a pennywise/pound-foolish idea, and we don't want to seem like we are endorsing/ promoting it...

Overall, yes. My prediction: enough of the greasers will have courage to admit it when the inevitable time comes and their expensive lessons are learned for everyone to benefit. Knowledge is always worth sharing.
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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rez311 said:
What big troubles? There are no known issues with injector tips burning from hot WVO at 180 deg. F or below. I have never seen proof. Nobody ha provided any, except myths.
I give up. (The others are right, this isn't the place to argue this.) Go ahead and dump straight vegetable oil into the tank of your P-D or common-rail diesel. Let us know what happens, and how much it costs to fix afterward.
 

hsus2k

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Location
Ga, USA
TDI
Golf GL, 2003, Silver
There are PD running WVO here in Atlanta!

:cool: Also have seen it ran on common-rail system..........:D

I've also dumped SVO (mixed with diesel) in the tank of my F250 PSD (7.3L) and ran without heating (thining the oil, but was in the summer time, of course). I do have a two tanks heated system on my "minor chipped" 03 Golf TDI getting about 110Hp and 208 Ft-lb to the wheels still over 50 MPG (HWY) for over 15K miles. (Also dyno'd between Diesel and WVO, there were only 1.2 Hp and about 1.5 ft-lb differences; less than 1%, which you can't tell by seat of the pants) I'm in the process of installing larger turbo and larger nozzels, and soon to be re-chipped!:eek: By then, I should be able to check my nozzels and injection pump's condition.

May be the Oil or Bio sections can help people to learn and decied what they want to do? There are Pros and Cons for using WVO/SVO and Bio.:rolleyes:
I'm actually helping to recycle the Waste oil here, since most resturant owners dump their oil straight into the trash dump just to save money (avoiding paying for oil pick-up!):mad:

The oil actually lubricate inside of the injection pump, as for the new low sufur diesel is very bad to the pump! Also there is almost NO (black) smoke coming out of my tail pipe and it smell much better too!:cool:
 

bhtooefr

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Except, at least in the case of PD, it was designed for much thinner fuel, and designed to overcome the fact that the fuel has very poor lubrication. It doesn't need the lubrication of veggie, and the thickness is a Bad Idea(tm) for PD.
 

compostbrain

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
GoFaster said:
Taking into account the following factors (some of which you've touched on):
- Use of vegetable oil is completely inadvisable on pumpe-duse or common-rail engines (which are the future);
I thought vw was discontinueing the pd engine hence it would not seems to be the future?

Also, although VW may not have designed the tdi specifically to run on veg. , good old Rudolph Diesel sure did design diesels to run on veg..
 

bhtooefr

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But they didn't design the Pumpe Duese injection system for veg, and that's a rather critical part of the engine.
 

rez311

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Haha. All of this arguing is one of the many reasons a grease car section is needed.

And YES, I will continue to fuel my TDI Jetta with wasted veggie oil. And everyone else, KEEP EATING THOSE FRENCH FRIES!!! :)
 

bhtooefr

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Of course, you're driving a VE-TDI. Whole different animal. Still not GREAT, but MUCH better than a PD-TDI.
 

rez311

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I think the PD-TDI would do just fine with WVO. It's all about filtering and the temperature before that WVO hits the injector pump(s). I would install an inline heater rail into the fuel line right before it hits the injector pump(s) to ensure the veggie oil viscosity will be as low as possible and above 180 deg F.
 
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