www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > General Automotive

General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Yesterday, 11:34   #2161
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

I do not think it is unreasonable for people to rent a vehicle to do something they rarely need a vehicle to do. Not everyone needs or wants several cars. And they may not have a place to keep them, especially living in an urban area. This is polar opposite from me, but I find no fault in someone making a different choice that suits their needs.

I rarely drive my F150, and truthfully I do not need it, but it is paid for, cheap to license and insure, I have PLENTY of space it park it, and I kinda like it (keeps my in touch with my fellow Missourian rednecks). I could just as easily rent a truck for the handful of times a year I really would need it... or just use my trailer behind the Golf (which I already do sometimes).

If I did not choose to live in the country, where everything save for Walmart is a 100 mile round trip, I think an EV would be a welcome addition to my "fleet". But there are not any [yet] that I really would want to own. The eGolf and 500e are pretty close, though. But their real world range is not so good.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com

See my FS thread:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=446942
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 13:20   #2162
VeeDubTDI
Good Ol' Boy
TDIClub Enthusiast
 
VeeDubTDI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Springfield, VA
Fuel Economy: see signature
Default

I'm looking around at Fiat 500es. They're coming in from California off-lease with anywhere from 6,000 - 30,000 miles and a price of $7,000 - $10,000. Pretty darn good price for a cute little run-about. I'm also waiting for Smart to introduce the new convertible in EV trim... I'd consider doing a three year lease on one of those if the price was right.

As for renting cars, I know a few people who will rent a car for long distance travel when they have a perfectly capable vehicle at home. Their reasoning is usually either because they don't think their current car will make it or they don't want to put that many miles on their own car. If you really only need a certain type vehicle for a handful of days per year, it makes more sense to rent it than to own and pay property taxes (location dependent) and insurance on it just to have it sit around for 360 out of 365 days.
__________________


Trusted TDI Mechanics Map || TDIClub Chat

Last edited by VeeDubTDI; Yesterday at 13:23.
VeeDubTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 16:07   #2163
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

And don't forget about time-based maintenance and repairs, too.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 19:28   #2164
pkhoury
That guy with the goats
 
pkhoury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Bandera, TX
Fuel Economy: CR - 36-41, PD - 39-48 (26-32 while towing)
Default

I'm a little late to this thread, but on the range issue - if you run the AC full blast, does that significantly lower the range on an EV? When I do long road trips, I usually put in about 500-800 miles a day (3200 miles in the past 5 days, and I start driving back home tomorrow). I don't think an EV is ready for mainstream use, because what does one do if they're rural, and the only way to charge back up is via 120V? I read somewhere that to go from empty to full would take over a day and a half on a Tesla, and for a measly 300 miles at best? I still wonder what real world driving would be, like jack rabbit starts, AC running all the time in the summer when you have animals in the car, what range looks like when towing 2800 pounds behind you, etc.
__________________
2010 Jetta Sportwagen - Malone DSG tune, Malone Stage 3.5, CR170, buzzken 3" straight pipe + resonator, PolarFIS, Panzer plate, front and rear fogs
2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
Malone Stage 4, VNT17, DC Stage 2 clutch, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, MFA cluster swap, dieselgeek Panzer plate and short shifter, Bosal towbar, Tekonsha P3 brake controller, Hopkins short-proof trailer light converter
2005 Jetta Wagon GLS - Malone Stage 4, VNT17, MFA cluster swap, Panzer Plate
pkhoury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 19:31   #2165
pkhoury
That guy with the goats
 
pkhoury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Bandera, TX
Fuel Economy: CR - 36-41, PD - 39-48 (26-32 while towing)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
If I did not choose to live in the country, where everything save for Walmart is a 100 mile round trip, I think an EV would be a welcome addition to my "fleet". But there are not any [yet] that I really would want to own. The eGolf and 500e are pretty close, though. But their real world range is not so good.
You must really live in the sticks. The liquor store is only a 25 mile round trip, and Walmart is about 65 miles round trip for me. And, having driving from Springfield to Jackson, TN on Saturday, I've noticed that Missourians LOVE their trucks.
__________________
2010 Jetta Sportwagen - Malone DSG tune, Malone Stage 3.5, CR170, buzzken 3" straight pipe + resonator, PolarFIS, Panzer plate, front and rear fogs
2004 Golf GLS 5MT -
Malone Stage 4, VNT17, DC Stage 2 clutch, buzzken 2.5" straight pipe, MFA cluster swap, dieselgeek Panzer plate and short shifter, Bosal towbar, Tekonsha P3 brake controller, Hopkins short-proof trailer light converter
2005 Jetta Wagon GLS - Malone Stage 4, VNT17, MFA cluster swap, Panzer Plate
pkhoury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 02:18   #2166
CraziFuzzy
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Jurupa Valley
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkhoury View Post
I'm a little late to this thread, but on the range issue - if you run the AC full blast, does that significantly lower the range on an EV? When I do long road trips, I usually put in about 500-800 miles a day (3200 miles in the past 5 days, and I start driving back home tomorrow). I don't think an EV is ready for mainstream use, because what does one do if they're rural, and the only way to charge back up is via 120V? I read somewhere that to go from empty to full would take over a day and a half on a Tesla, and for a measly 300 miles at best? I still wonder what real world driving would be, like jack rabbit starts, AC running all the time in the summer when you have animals in the car, what range looks like when towing 2800 pounds behind you, etc.
"mainstream use" is NOT 500-800 miles a day. Most vehicles on the road in the US drive <40 miles/day (12,000-15,000 miles/year).

regarding the AC. it depends on the outside temperature how much it actually uses. My fiat automatically reduces the estimated range remaining by 10% when the HVAC system is running. Actual AC use doesn't impact it that much, but heating does (the fiat uses electric resistive heat instead of the heat pump, so it's a hit - but it was designed for California, so heating is rarely an issue).

(And you aren't late to the thread - you've already commented 22 times here).

Last edited by CraziFuzzy; Today at 02:25.
CraziFuzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 02:54   #2167
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkhoury View Post
I don't think an EV is ready for mainstream use, because what does one do if they're rural, and the only way to charge back up is via 120V?
If you're running significant range on a BEV in a rural area, you'll want to install a 240 volt EVSE to get faster home charging. Tesla's own EVSE is capable of doing 40 or 80 amps at 240 volts - 9.6 or 19.2 kW, which is a hell of a lot faster than the 12 amps that you'll usually get off of 120 volts, for 1.44 kW.

That said, the majority of the US population (although using different measurement methods of urban vs. rural) has been urban since the 1920 census, and in the 2010 census, was 80.7% of the population - so rural isn't mainstream. (The method of determining urban vs. rural population changed in 1950 to bias things more towards rural, and it changed again in 2000 (not sure of the effect, but it might bias towards urban.)
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.

Last edited by bhtooefr; Today at 03:00.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 03:28   #2168
AntonLargiader
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Default

In cold (10~20 degree) weather the range of the Volt dropped from 40 to the mid 20s, due to the electric heat. That was projected range; not sure what actual was in those cases. EVs tend to have seat heat because it's way more efficient than heating the cabin air.

My in-laws have driven their Model S cross-country a few times. When they go away from the Supercharger network, things can get challenging with very slow charging at Level 2 stations. Some of those stations are slower than charging at home, where they have 40A x 240V. And they report a noticeable hit to the projected range with AC on, but they never really test the battery range so it's not an issue for them.

FWIW the charge rate is generally thought of in "Miles per hour" as in how many miles of range do you get per hour of charging. Superchargers give 250~400 depending on state of charge, which is completely viable for long-distance driving, but smaller chargers can be way lower which is basically not viable for a quick refuel. They have encountered chargers that gave them 15, 18 miles per hour which is obviously a problem. But they were only needing enough range to get to a relative's house or another supercharger.

A double 50A breaker wired to a 14-50 receptacle would make a great travel gadget...
__________________
Anton Largiader, Charlottesville VA
Awesome red wagon w/Bosal hitch.
AntonLargiader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 05:54   #2169
El Dobro
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: NJ
TDI(s): 2014 Volt
Fuel Economy: 93 MPGe
Default

I have a Gen 1 Volt, with the "smaller" battery. Even with my out of state trips, the car is still running at 74% EV.
__________________
"Drink the Kool-Aid" -Jim Jones
"Baa-baa-baa" -Sheep
"He's opening our minds to new ideas, KILL HIM!!!" -Futurama
Now, I drive more, worry less.
Penguin -The other white meat.
El Dobro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 08:02   #2170
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI View Post
I'm looking around at Fiat 500es. They're coming in from California off-lease with anywhere from 6,000 - 30,000 miles and a price of $7,000 - $10,000. Pretty darn good price for a cute little run-about.
I've seen those too. Crazy low prices, and pretty easy to get that $7,000 back considering no oil changes, and if you live in an area with cheap kWh's or free public charging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI View Post
As for renting cars, I know a few people who will rent a car for long distance travel when they have a perfectly capable vehicle at home. Their reasoning is usually either because they don't think their current car will make it or they don't want to put that many miles on their own car. If you really only need a certain type vehicle for a handful of days per year, it makes more sense to rent it than to own and pay property taxes (location dependent) and insurance on it just to have it sit around for 360 out of 365 days.
I'll qualify my last statement regarding renting a car because your EV can't make the trip. I'll stipulate that "most" of us only drive ~40 miles per day as per the national average. If you rarely make trips beyond your EV's range, sure...rent a car. I just see the argument made too often.

Notwithstanding long, cross-country trips, I think a lot of people still do make 100 mile trips fairly regularly. I don't rent cars for those trips, but in fairness, I suppose a lot of people do. My bad.
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.

Last edited by Oilerlord; Today at 08:06.
Oilerlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:40   #2171
VeeDubTDI
Good Ol' Boy
TDIClub Enthusiast
 
VeeDubTDI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Springfield, VA
Fuel Economy: see signature
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
I've seen those too. Crazy low prices, and pretty easy to get that $7,000 back considering no oil changes, and if you live in an area with cheap kWh's or free public charging.



I'll qualify my last statement regarding renting a car because your EV can't make the trip. I'll stipulate that "most" of us only drive ~40 miles per day as per the national average. If you rarely make trips beyond your EV's range, sure...rent a car. I just see the argument made too often.

Notwithstanding long, cross-country trips, I think a lot of people still do make 100 mile trips fairly regularly. I don't rent cars for those trips, but in fairness, I suppose a lot of people do. My bad.
Our power company is coming out tomorrow to change our standard meter to a "smart" time-of-use meter. As long as we charge during off-peak times (overnight and on weekends), the energy cost to drive an EV will be around one cent per mile. Compare that to 8 cents per mile for our Passat and Mk4 Jetta. Driven 10,000 miles per year, that adds up to $800 in energy/fuel savings alone. I'm not saying that we're replacing both of those cars, but those are the numbers for comparison purposes.

I think you're right that quite a few people take 100 mile trips on a semi-regular basis; say, once per month or more. At that rate, it certainly wouldn't be a good financial value to rent a car on a monthly basis. That said, there are a few EVs available now that will accommodate that type of driving style - any Tesla, the Chevy Bolt, the soon-to-be new Nissan LEAF (at 200 miles range), and, of course, any plug-in hybrid like the Chevy Volt. Low range compliance cars really aren't good for single-car households unless you truly never leave the city. However, they can be a great second or third car in a multi-car household, as well as being a great financial value if purchased used.
__________________


Trusted TDI Mechanics Map || TDIClub Chat
VeeDubTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 10:33   #2172
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI View Post
Our power company is coming out tomorrow to change our standard meter to a "smart" time-of-use meter. As long as we charge during off-peak times (overnight and on weekends), the energy cost to drive an EV will be around one cent per mile. Compare that to 8 cents per mile for our Passat and Mk4 Jetta. Driven 10,000 miles per year, that adds up to $800 in energy/fuel savings alone. I'm not saying that we're replacing both of those cars, but those are the numbers for comparison purposes.
Our smart meter was installed as part of our solar installation. We don't have TOU rates where we live, but I'm on a spot pricing plan with our poco. Last month, we the electricity charge was only 3.8 cents per kWh but with fees & taxes - 9.6 cents per kWh. We do get paid the base electricity rate for power we export, but aren't able to "bank" credits from our solar. This is where the EV comes in. There is way more value in charging up my car using my solar instead of getting paid that piddly 3.8 cents from our poco.

I do recognize that there is a value of 3.8 cents per kWh that is going into my car's battery assuming 100% is being delivered from my solar - so those solar-generated 28 kWh's are worth $1.06. Even without solar, and rounding up to 10 cents per kWh, charging my 28 kWh battery would cost $2.80 to drive up to 100 miles. Still, pretty cheap driving...and again, no oil changes and likely no brake pad replacements because of regenerative braking.

I'm with you. It's tough to beat the economics of a $7,000 electric car if the owner can accept the reality of an 80 mile range.
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.

Last edited by Oilerlord; Today at 10:40.
Oilerlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:31   #2173
CraziFuzzy
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Jurupa Valley
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
Our smart meter was installed as part of our solar installation. We don't have TOU rates where we live, but I'm on a spot pricing plan with our poco. Last month, we the electricity charge was only 3.8 cents per kWh but with fees & taxes - 9.6 cents per kWh. We do get paid the base electricity rate for power we export, but aren't able to "bank" credits from our solar. This is where the EV comes in. There is way more value in charging up my car using my solar instead of getting paid that piddly 3.8 cents from our poco.

I do recognize that there is a value of 3.8 cents per kWh that is going into my car's battery assuming 100% is being delivered from my solar - so those solar-generated 28 kWh's are worth $1.06. Even without solar, and rounding up to 10 cents per kWh, charging my 28 kWh battery would cost $2.80 to drive up to 100 miles. Still, pretty cheap driving...and again, no oil changes and likely no brake pad replacements because of regenerative braking.

I'm with you. It's tough to beat the economics of a $7,000 electric car if the owner can accept the reality of an 80 mile range.
The craziest thing of that $7000 fiat, is when my 3 year, 30,000 mile lease is up on my '16 fiat, the lease residual - on paper - is close to $20,000. When the exact same car is selling used for $7,000, that's a seriously crazy leasing situation.
The reality is, Fiat is not truly losing money on the 500e - because the guys buying the big dodge trucks (that fiat wouldn't be able to sell here without the 500e) are covering it for me. I certainly appreciate them doing so when i pass the gas station and see them there also paying way more road taxes than I.

Smart meters here in southern california are being installed automatically by the utility on a roll-out schedule. ToU rates are optional currently.

Last edited by CraziFuzzy; Today at 12:35.
CraziFuzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 13:08   #2174
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

Well, and being a Type I.5 ZEV, the 500e gets 2.5 credits.

Each credit is worth $5000 (because that's the fine per car that doesn't have a credit to compensate for it), meaning that each 500e sold in a ZEV state (and they're only sold in ZEV states) is worth $12,500 to FCA. That means they're eating a lot less than the $13,000 that the difference between residual and actual resale value would imply.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 14:46   #2175
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Default

The Fiat CEO once quoted the "loss" at $14,000 per 500e sold. No doubt that's the cost of doing business / complying with regulations, but it's a loss per unit sold nonetheless. No manufacturer wants to build a $32,000 car, and inflate the residual just so they can get them out the door at $59 per month.
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.
Oilerlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GM, Nissan and Tesla Premier New Electric Vehicles in Detroit MarcusW General Automotive 1 January 17th, 2013 11:24
How many states exempt diesel vehicles for emissions? Angus Scrimm TDI (Diesel) Emissions 26 January 10th, 2011 21:25
Plug-in or Full-Electric Vehicles? bad idea TornadoRed General Automotive 63 January 16th, 2010 16:46
Extending range in Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) nicklockard General Automotive 1 March 6th, 2005 13:39
GM pulling the plug on electric vehicles BHarrison TDI News/Tech 4 May 7th, 2003 11:20


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2015, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.21172 seconds with 12 queries
[Output: 150.11 Kb. compressed to 127.17 Kb. by saving 22.95 Kb. (15.29%)]