Standard transmissions are for losers - discuss...

For actual driving, where the car spends most of it's time moving, I like a manual.

For sitting in traffic, I would rather just zone out and float along in a complete stupor, trying to pretend I'm at the beach or something. That what everyone else seems to be doing.

jason_ said:

Last night I gave my turbo and gearbox a workout.

Getting rolling was tedious without getting wild with the clutch, but I towed my buddies f350 that had 2k# of gravel in it back home. 10 miles, the hills made it equivalent to 50.

Haha, he burned up his auto, gave me a call and away we went.

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I've done that on more than one occasion with a 150, a 350 should've been able to handle that without an issue...I'm thinking that tranny was half gone a long time ago.

The last time I did something like that was with a '13 F150 Ecoboost. I had a two dozen versa lok blocks in the bed, and a half bucket of crushed limestone. The blocks alone were 2000lbs, not sure how much extra the limestone added. The truck squatted a bit, but didn't care otherwise. Trans temp never even went above the normal temp (yes it had an actual gauge)

thecause17 said:

I've done that on more than one occasion with a 150, a 350 should've been able to handle that without an issue...I'm thinking that tranny was half gone a long time ago.
The last time I did something like that was with a '13 F150 Ecoboost. I had a two dozen versa lok blocks in the bed, and a half bucket of crushed limestone. The blocks alone were 2000lbs, not sure how much extra the limestone added. The truck squatted a bit, but didn't care otherwise. Trans temp never even went above the normal temp (yes it had an actual gauge)

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Here is my 3/4 ton Dodge with a 5 speed getrag and around 350k miles. That is 2 tons of cement in the bed that I moved about a mile, the other is 1.3 tons of ceramic tile in the bed and 2.6 tons in the trailer. I pulled this load 60 miles without any complaint from the tranny...Mark

maybe368 said:

Here is my 3/4 ton Dodge with a 5 speed getrag and around 350k miles. That is 2 tons of cement in the bed that I moved about a mile, the other is 1.3 tons of ceramic tile in the bed and 2.6 tons in the trailor. I pulled this load 60 miles without any complaint from the tranny...Mark

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Congrats. You can definitely go over a truck's rating if you're careful. I just wouldn't want to get into an accident and have any authorities determine you were over the GVWR, bad news.

thecause17 said:

Congrats. You can definitely go over a truck's rating if you're careful. I just wouldn't want to get into an accident and have any authorities determine you were over the GVWR, bad news.

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I forgot to mention that that was in Mexico, the Cummins wasn't complaining either...Mark

thecause17 said:

I've done that on more than one occasion with a 150, a 350 should've been able to handle that without an issue...I'm thinking that tranny was half gone a long time ago.

The last time I did something like that was with a '13 F150 Ecoboost. I had a two dozen versa lok blocks in the bed, and a half bucket of crushed limestone. The blocks alone were 2000lbs, not sure how much extra the limestone added. The truck squatted a bit, but didn't care otherwise. Trans temp never even went above the normal temp (yes it had an actual gauge)

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I mentioned his pay load, combined with his truck, plus wagon itself, for reference that 2.0 CR tugged 13k# down the road.

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jason_ said:

I mentioned his pay load, combined with his truck, plus wagon itself, for reference that 2.0 CR tugged 13k# down the road.

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I'm not sure what your point is. All I stated was that 2000lbs in the back of an F350 should be no big deal for the truck, and that even 150s can handle that without an issue. No reference to your car whatsoever...

Both on wrong page.

Towing with a manual transmission well over vw's recommended numbers

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I have given this a fair amount of thought.

I learned to drive on a manual. My dad replaced our old 352-Cleveland Ford Torino automatic just as I turned 16. He replaced it with a PoS Datsun F-10. So I learned on that, and I took my road test with the '78 diesel Rabbit (the "nice" car). It was a few years until I "learned" how to drive an automatic.

No doubt, manuals can be more fun, especially on a UK rental where it's backward. I broke a lot of nails trying to shift the door handle. However, I am at a stage in life where sitting in crawling traffic in a manual is NO FUN. And I do a lot of that around here. Thanks to Rocketchip, my 2.0T is a lot of fun. For the record, I put it in D and it makes all the decisions.

My problem with automatic transmissions is so many of the people who drive them. I swear sometimes, the brake lights come on when the foot is lifted from the accelerator. Does anyone know how to coast?

I spent a good portion of yesterday afternoon teaching my 18 year old niece and her friend how to drive a standard. It was funny to see their excitement when they finally got rolling and shifting through the gears. They were excited to get out of the parking lot and 'have fun.' Made me proud, but took years off of the life of my clutch; time to sell the Audi!

They made it to the beach in my mother's B4 this morning. Good thing it has a VR6 clutch. And a beach sticker.

all that was around when I learned to drive was a manual

Jetter_Sprinta said:

I have given this a fair amount of thought.

I learned to drive on a manual. My dad replaced our old 352-Cleveland Ford Torino automatic just as I turned 16. He replaced it with a PoS Datsun F-10. So I learned on that, and I took my road test with the '78 diesel Rabbit (the "nice" car). It was a few years until I "learned" how to drive an automatic.

No doubt, manuals can be more fun, especially on a UK rental where it's backward. I broke a lot of nails trying to shift the door handle. However, I am at a stage in life where sitting in crawling traffic in a manual is NO FUN. And I do a lot of that around here. And thanks to Rocketchip, my 2.0T is a lot of fun. And for the record, I put it in D and it makes all the decisions.

My problem with automatic transmissions is so many of the people who drive them. I swear sometimes, the brake lights come on when the foot is lifted from the accelerator. Does anyone know how to coast?

I spent a good portion of yesterday afternoon teaching my 18 year old niece and her friend how to drive a standard. It was funny to see their excitement when they finally got rolling and shifting through the gears. They were excited to get out of the parking lot and 'have fun.' Made me proud, but took years off of the life of my clutch; time to sell the Audi!

They made it to the beach in my mother's B4 this morning. Good thing it has a VR6 clutch. And a beach sticker.

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I have a pretty similar story, Oil crunch hit in 73 and the V8 automatics hit the bricks. By mid 74 we had nothing but manual trans Toyota's and Mazda's.

So by the time I started to drive a few years later a manual was all we had to learn to drive on. Got my license in a red 4dr 72 Mazda Rx2, 4spd manual trans.......My car was a yellow 4 spd Rx4, put 400+k miles on that thing. In later years I put a 5spd trans in the thing....

I also got my school bus license training while I still had my permit, all the buses were 4 sp manual trans. So by the time I got my license I had a lot of good training in a manual trans vehicle. I got my license on a Wed. morning and was behind the wheel of a school bus that afternoon! Later I got a commercial license, again in a manual trans truck.

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The clutch is a lot stronger than you might think, I have only lost one clutch over the years from teaching someone to row their own gears. And we are talking about close to 100 people now I have taught to row their own gears.

The one that did fail had over ~920,000 miles, that's right over 900k on the original clutch in the 1979 Celica I had. Original engine, trans and clutch! I was selling the car when some yokel who had no clue how to drive a stick came to look at the car. It ran for another ~4 years to guy I sold it to, ~1,100,000 miles on the clock when a guy ran a stop sign running into it totaling it.....

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On right hand drive driving.............

The door handles were not my problem, it was those damn wipers!

Every time I wanted to turn on the turn signals I would hit the wipers.... After a few weeks and a few thousand kms of driving on the other side of the road down under in several different 5 spd manual toyota corolla models I had gotten used to turn signals being on the other side. And when I got back to the states the fun continued for a week or so.......

After adapting to right hand drive setup driving, in the week or so after I got back every time I would try to make a turn I went to hit the turn signals those wipers started up again.......

The second day back I was driving through a grocery store parking lot when I realized I about to turn into oncoming traffic on a divided boulevard. It was like, ok which way am I supposed to turn.........

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I don't care what any peddle pusher automatic only driver believes, they are dangerous to all who are around them disconnected from driving drivers!

You ask, what is a peddle pusher...?.....

(Peddle Pusher- Automatic only driver, has no clue how to drive a manual trans vehicle. They are Someone who has no clue how to actual drive the car other than just putting the vehicle in D and pushing the peddles.

They are Usually driving around pushing the brake and the throttle most of the time together. They have No clue whatsoever how to use the throttle, engine or gears to control the car.. To them "gears?"... "what are gears"....

They have no awareness to their speed in relation to traffic conditions or what gear they are in or need to be in. They consistently over accelerate just to have to slam on the brakes. They always see the lowest mpgs numbers possible in whatever they drive.....You get the idea......

Driving, what is that...) )

And these peddle pushers are not aware, have no clue of how disconnected they are from most driving situations they face. And they stay clueless to actual driving until a situation arises that forces them to learn to drive a manual trans.....

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I wish we would at least require them to pass a simple driving test to teach them driving control skills automatic only drivers are lacking today here in "automatic only land"......Those missing skills make them a danger to themselves and everyone else. And make them someone you really don't want to ride with and someone to be avoided at all costs by others while driving..

With a manual transmission, I don't have to worry about leaving the lights on, don't try that with your automatic/Dsg ...........

I personally learned on a manual, then was given a 78 nova I6 with an automatic to actually drive. I think the plan was force me to get the skills first, then give me a barge with no power, that and there was no way I was getting the RX-7 for a daily driver.

My son just got his license last week. In Michigan you have to take two parts of drivers ed classes as part of the process. In neither class was the instructor allowed to use a manual car, even though that's what my son drives, and took his driving test in. Seems that if you wanted to have a really applicable drivers ed class, you should at least have it on a car with similar operations to the one you drive. In any case, my son told us that the instructor told him maybe 3-4 students a year have a manual car, everyone it seems has gone to automatics for their kids.

I look at it this way, I could drive anything if I had to, perhaps not legally for larger trucks, but I know how they work. My son will learn how to drive a split hi-lo differential truck, will he ever need to drive a 10 speed partially syncro'd truck, probably not, but because he knows how, there is very little one can't drive.

My brother-in-law learned on an automatic, and to this day, can't drive a manual. So, my sister ends up driving when they fly in, and all the cars in the house are manuals.

Driver's Ed with automatics is not new news. I took Driver's Ed 42 years ago in a Pontiac Catalina. Took the test in it, too. The car I drove to high school was an Austin Healey Sprite. Couldn't have been more different. A few years later I remember renting a car so my younger brother could take his driving test. Had to be an automatic. I rented a Ford Maverick. I called it the stove bolt, it was so sophisticated. My brother's daily was a '66 VW bus, and then a '74 Civic. Again, pretty different from the test cars.

Fast forward about 35 years and my son took his test in his A3 Jetta. They allowed a manual as long as there was a hand brake in the center of the car that the trooper could reach. Whatever.

JDSwan87 said:

I still prefer a clutch for winter driving. Nothing compares to being able to dictate how much power goes to the wheels when starting from a stop on a snowy road or getting un-stuck in my driveway.

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Sorry but this argument baffles me. I've driven many vehicles in the winter with both automatic and manual transmissions and have yet to notice a difference in my ability to dislodge myself from snow. The tires do not care what transmission is sending power to them, they will provide the same amount of traction regardless. The only reason why you must feather the clutch so much in a manual is because during a slow speed maneuver like that you risk stalling the vehicle if you don't. Proper throttle modulation in an automatic will provide the same result. Some of you act as if the tires magically find more grip if they know you are using both feet.

My kid took her driving test in my ALH 5-speed. She passed.

She still drives it.

psrumors said:

An auto will be quicker, allow the turbo to stay spooled and really will give more control when built / designed correctly. The problem I have with factory automatics is the build quality. Many just don't stand up to even stock level power.

I have a 7.3 powerstroke and spent $5200 on an auto (built by BTS) that is proven to stand up to use and abuse. I did this because I wanted something that will last. Most stock autos don't. My wife's Honda Odyssey ate a trans before 90k miles.

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Honda now recommends replacing the automatic transmission at the same interval as timing belt replacement.

Which is worse a Chrysler transmission or a Honda?


Not picking on you psrumors, but I am sick of Honda's undeserved quality reputation. Yes, they make great 4-cyl engines, but none with any torque.

Most Honda 4 cylinders need to be driven like a motorcycle to make power - i.e. Revved.

ChiTownPilot said:

Sorry but this argument baffles me. I've driven many vehicles in the winter with both automatic and manual transmissions and have yet to notice a difference in my ability to dislodge myself from snow. The tires do not care what transmission is sending power to them, they will provide the same amount of traction regardless. The only reason why you must feather the clutch so much in a manual is because during a slow speed maneuver like that you risk stalling the vehicle if you don't. Proper throttle modulation in an automatic will provide the same result. Some of you act as if the tires magically find more grip if they know you are using both feet.

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It's not grip.
It's controlling wheel spin. Some favor one over the other. Some can't control one over the other.

Countless times my Allis Chalmers spins all 4 in greasy mud and snow packed so hard it's glossy.

If I just hold the brakes and use hydraulics to roll whatever to me, then roll bucket forward, then drive back to eat up chain slack, , rinse and repeat, I can pull more then using only wheel torque.

Same tires, same weight, no extra horsepower. No magic. Just preventing wheel spin.

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This is something interesting I noticed at school... I am in aviation right now to become a pilot, and at least 50%, or close to 50% of my classmates drive a manual car, and probably 70% or more know how to drive stick, same thing goes for professors and instructors (that are pilots). Funny enough, this conversion about stick shifts came about with one of my instructors during flight... he was saying it was something about pilots and being control freaks... I guess that holds true more or less, but regardless, go into my parking lot at school and it'll probably be the most amount of manuals you can find in a parking lot, which for me at least is a great thing!

higgledy said:

Honda now recommends replacing the automatic transmission at the same interval as timing belt replacement.

...

Not picking on you psrumors, but I am sick of Honda's undeserved quality reputation. Yes, they make great 4-cyl engines, but none with any torque.

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What's the fixation with torque?

My Honda S2000 only had 153 ft-lbs torque (IIRC); my '14 JSW TDI has something like 237 ft-lbs. The S2000 could do 0-60 in under six seconds; the JSW TDI can get out of its own way, barely.

Yes, I'm comparing apples to oranges...

I haven't driven an S2000, but I had a ride in one around Mosport a few years ago to help me get acquainted with the track. I thought of it as the complete opposite of the TDI: I had a Golf with a 6000 RPM tune, but the S2000 didn't start making power until it was past 6000 RPM. My Miata is similar: It doesn't have a lot of power to start with but what it has it makes above 5000 RPM. I have no problem with that, but most people like to lug around at 2000 RPM or so. That's where TDIs are most appealing. And yes, they can barely get out of their own way. But because of the torque they feel quicker than they are.

S2000_guy said:

What's the fixation with torque?

My Honda S2000 only had 153 ft-lbs torque (IIRC); my '14 JSW TDI has something like 237 ft-lbs. The S2000 could do 0-60 in under six seconds; the JSW TDI can get out of its own way, barely.

Yes, I'm comparing apples to oranges...

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the problem is your 0-60 time is about as useful as a bow tie on my cat in the real world. Looks cute, fun to show my friends but really doesn't do anything useful for the cat or for you......

While a diesel's torque is useful for things like passing another car, or accelerating without having to red line the engine.......

0-60 times really never come into play in real driving. But having bunch of torque in the normal driving rpm range is useful in everyday driving, used all the time while driving....

But redlining an engine at 9000 rpm was FUN...

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I have to grudgingly admit that a car with a good DSG transmission is faster than a manual. If I were buying a track day car I'd have to give a DSG serious consideration: It would be quicker and allow me to concentrate on things other than rev matching and shifting.

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Windex said:

Control? You have as much control in a DSG as you do in a manual - I can up/downshift to any gear and hold any gear just as one can in a manual.

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Not arguing this point, just looking for clarification - A common claim for the DSG is that it shifts faster. This is achieved by nearly simultaneously releasing one clutch and engaging the other which has already been selected to the next higher gear. Then, while revving up through that gear, the selector on the unused counter shaft changes to the next higher gear. This creates a condition where you have one clutch controlling all odd numbered gears and the other all the even ones. Now, two conditions:

1: You are accelerating and then need to brake and downshift quickly. So let's say you are near redline in 3rd gear, then slam on the brakes and request a downshift from the DSG. Problem, the DSG anticipated 4th gear next, not 2nd. How fast does that change back to 2nd happen?

2: You are cruising at a low RPM and need to quickly downshift twice to accelerate. So, lets say you are lofting along at 1900 RPM in 5th gear, then come up behind a semi going up a steep hill and need to change lanes and avoid being run over by the bro in his lifted Cummins on mud terrains doing 15 MPH over and still accelerating uphill. You tap the downshift button twice. Obviously this would be from a lack of preparation and the driver needs to be way more aware than this, I'm just giving a hypothetical though. How fast does that change happen?

In either case, you are no longer just switching from one clutch to the other, but relying on the automated gear selector to change gears before engaging. I'm just curious how a DSG executes these requests.

These are obviously very contrived situations that would likely never be encountered, especially in a TDI. I'm just bringing it up for the sake of exploration/understanding. These would most likely be encountered in a racing situation, which is why I quote IBW's comment about preferring it for a track car. Also, there seems to be a slight lack of control as you can't equally up/downshift into any gear, but only the gear the DSG assumes you'll want next. Just wondering, and as I don't have a DSG that anyone would allow me to go out and thrash for the sake of understanding, I wonder if there's any insight here.

Maybe I will get a car with an automatic when I'm old, decrepit and crotchety, till then it's manuals as long as I can drive one simply for the pleasure I get from shifting gears. I feel more connected to a car as I feel I have more control over the car not the other way around....


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Maybe I will get a car with an automatic when I'm old, decrepit and crotchety, till then it's manuals as long as I can drive one simply for the pleasure I get from shifting gears. I feel more connected to a car as I feel I have more control over the car not the other way around....

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I'm already crotchety. I still drive a manual.

Windex said:

I'm already crotchety. I still drive a manual.

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I said all 3, you still have 2 to go Adam


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Alcancia said:

Not arguing this point, just looking for clarification - A common claim for the DSG is that it shifts faster. This is achieved by nearly simultaneously releasing one clutch and engaging the other which has already been selected to the next higher gear. Then, while revving up through that gear, the selector on the unused counter shaft changes to the next higher gear. This creates a condition where you have one clutch controlling all odd numbered gears and the other all the even ones. Now, two conditions:

1: You are accelerating and then need to brake and downshift quickly. So let's say you are near redline in 3rd gear, then slam on the brakes and request a downshift from the DSG. Problem, the DSG anticipated 4th gear next, not 2nd. How fast does that change back to 2nd happen?

2: You are cruising at a low RPM and need to quickly downshift twice to accelerate. So, lets say you are lofting along at 1900 RPM in 5th gear, then come up behind a semi going up a steep hill and need to change lanes and avoid being run over by the bro in his lifted Cummins on mud terrains doing 15 MPH over and still accelerating uphill. You tap the downshift button twice. Obviously this would be from a lack of preparation and the driver needs to be way more aware than this, I'm just giving a hypothetical though. How fast does that change happen?

In either case, you are no longer just switching from one clutch to the other, but relying on the automated gear selector to change gears before engaging. I'm just curious how a DSG executes these requests.

These are obviously very contrived situations that would likely never be encountered, especially in a TDI. I'm just bringing it up for the sake of exploration/understanding. These would most likely be encountered in a racing situation, which is why I quote IBW's comment about preferring it for a track car. Also, there seems to be a slight lack of control as you can't equally up/downshift into any gear, but only the gear the DSG assumes you'll want next. Just wondering, and as I don't have a DSG that anyone would allow me to go out and thrash for the sake of understanding, I wonder if there's any insight here.

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Sources I looked at seem to say that downshifts or upshifts to a non-preselected gear is 600 ms. That means basically the transmission will shift as fast as you can tap the paddles.

And at least in my limited track practice I don't skip gears going up or down. You don't skip going up for obvious reasons, and don't skip going down so you won't upset the car's balance. Others may have different techniques.

IBW,

I only did a couple of track days when I owned the S2000. IMHO, you're right not to skip gears when downshifting. I was in the habit of shifting from whatever (6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd) directly into 2nd for corners on the street; I continued this habit at BeaverRun and had a couple of very uncomfortable moments when I was late braking for a corner. Fortunately for me, the S2000 was quite forgiving of my clumsiness. Not all cars would be so forgiving.

For what it's worth... When I drove the huge MB tractor on the German pig farm, they pointed and laughed as I went up the gears in order, and took corners in 3rd. But I didn't drop any of the harvest and I kept my lane... The German farmers loved watching an American female "drive" a tractor. I just liked the a/c and tape deck....


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