Timing belt change interval for PD engines (BEW at least)?

I was placing the order for my kit at about 95k since the first change (at 95k) and noticed that the interval had changed. First I heard about it. Not worried a bit about running to 100k. Think it's at 99 now? One of the next couple of weekends it'll get done. Driving the Passat until then.

puntmeister said:

Are there are any signs which indicate a water-pump is going bad?

I do understand the potential nightmare scenario of a broken timing belt but, after reading a good bit, it seems the much more common scenario is timing belts, and associated parts, are replaced when they are still in very good condition.

My car is housed & driven in Arizona. No snow, no salt, no freezing temps, negligible rain, and I have, after 2 years, not seen a single pothole. I drive very conservatively (to maximize mpg). All told, I just don't see the timing belt going bad, even after 100k miles.

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The timing belt isn't usually what fails. More often it's the tensioner or bearings in one of the rollers. That's why inspecting the belt doesn't necessarily tell you anything. And the components are protected from the weather, so your location doesn't make much difference, except perhaps that it's most likely hotter under the hood of your car than mine here in Massachusetts, for example, which could impact belt deterioration or bearing life.

A complete timing belt replacement really isn't that expensive. Although I don't see a need to shorten the interval, I would replace it on schedule.

Well, that's just the issue - a complete timing belt replacement is actually fairly expensive. On the low end, with a good kit, and a TDI guru, around $700. That's the low end.

Oil changes aren't that expensive. Timing belt changes are.

Yes, I know, rebuilding an engine is a lot more than $700. But its not $100,000 either. Paying $700 insurance to avoid a potential $5,000 obligation is, well, a very pricey insurance policy, unless its a near-certainty the timing belt and/or associated components WILL fail, and WILL result in the need for a complete engine overhaul.

I'm not for a minute suggesting people should not get TBs replaced. Just wondering out loud how tight one needs to be in getting it done every 80 to 100k miles.

PS - is there an abbreviated method of changing just the tensioner & rollers, leaving the belt, and current timing, intact - ie, one that swaps out the parts most likely to fail, but makes the process simpler for the DIYer who is, perhaps, a bit leary of tackling a fairly complex project?

On a side note - as hot as it gets in Arizona (115 in summer is normal), I have never had anything even close to an over-heating situation with my PD. These diesels really don't overheat too easily.

The extreme heat mainly causes 2 issues for cars:

1) Blown tires (scorching hot pavement combined with worn tires)

2) Early battery failure (or so I'm told - but I've been running for almost 3 years on a battery that was used when I got it, and it cranks like the car is new - I forget the year of the battery, but I'm thinking its from around 2007!).

Other than that, the heat really doesn't hurt much. The lack of rain, snow, freezing temps, road salt, and potholes, on the other hand, keep cars in like-new condition for a lot longer here.

It is a certainty that the components will fail. It's just a matter of when. I've heard of people going 150K+ without timing belt replacements, and I bet folks have gone farther. But when it fails, you're probably rebuilding the head at least. You can also damage cylinder walls and pistons. And remember, after you've paid $5K or whatever for repairs, you still have to replace the timing belt.

It's not insurance: It's required routine maintenance. It's more expensive than an oil change, but that doesn't mean you can skip it, any more than you should skip replacing brake pads or tires.

And the same heat that kills batteries in Arizona is working on rubber components under the hood, including belts. And bearing seals. Car manufacturers do all kinds of testing before producing a vehicle, including cold and hot weather testing. And VWs don't need any different maintenance in hot of cold climates. You shouldn't consider your environment any more favorable to car life than any other. You don't have to deal with road salt and rust, but you do have to deal with interior fabric and pain degradation because of sun and high temperatures. And head and lack of humidity is hard on bushings and other rubber components. If you want an ideal car environment, San Diego is probably it. Or Portland. Just stay away from the ocean.

It isn't like a timing belt is a hidden cost. You buy the car knowing (hopefully) that you will need to do this at a set period of time/miles.

Although I am perfectly well aware of timing belts, their importance, and the need for periodic overhaul - I would guesstimate about 85% of the general car-owning public do not have the slightest clue about what a timing belt is, and have no intention whatsoever of spending $750+ on a preventative maintenance timing belt change.

That being the case, one should see car engines dying like flies. Yet, although I do hear of the occasional timing belt failure (resulting in serious engine damage), its not an everyday event.

Most of the car-buying public either have the service done, wonder why it cost what it did, and don't know that the belt was changed, or, if they know the car is due for a belt and they don't want to incur the expense, trade the car in. Then the next owner gets the car at a reasonable price and changes the belt.

I probably talk to someone who's had a belt fail every day. Most often it's because a previous owner neglected the car or lied about it having been changed. Or the owner was trying to buy some time before the replacement, went beyond the interval, and got caught. Sometimes it's because a new belt was installed improperly. But it happens, a lot, and to gasoline cars, too.

Not all belt driven engines will crash the head either. My 2000 Chevy Metro won't crash the head since it is the 3 cylinder version. Will the belt fail at 100,001 miles. No. But it is a risk that the manufacturer stated you should change at that milage. Past that my car is worth more then the timing belt yet so I plan on continuing to change. And if you can do it yourself-it is much cheaper.

coalminer16 said:

Not all belt driven engines will crash the head either. My 2000 Chevy Metro won't crash the head since it is the 3 cylinder version. Will the belt fail at 100,001 miles. No. But it is a risk that the manufacturer stated you should change at that milage. Past that my car is worth more then the timing belt yet so I plan on continuing to change. And if you can do it yourself-it is much cheaper.

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Same here with my Miata with it's non-interference engine. I have 277,000+ miles on it (would have been over 300,000 if I hadn't retired in 2008) and it has had 2 TB changes so far. Oh, Mazda specified a 60,000 mile interval, but California mandated 100,000 miles between changes otherwise it would be on it's fourth or fifth belt.

coalminer,

I had a 1994 Geo Metro - that was my favorite car ever - had it until about 2003. The only repair ever needed during that time was a new intermittent wiper relay. (and yes, I i did have the timing belt changed, forget at what mileage). I averaged 50 mpg, and that was with zero effort - jack-rabbit starting, 70 mph highway - I wonder what I could have gotten with more conservative driving...

Anyway - I have considered doing the TB change myself on my 2004 BEW - but it really is a notch above my skill level. I've done a lot of other repairs on it myself, but it generally takes me 2 to 3x the average times quoted on these boards, as I go slowly due to inexperience.

If I muff up the install of a strut - I can go back and fix it. If I muff up the install of the timing belt, the results could be disasterous.

I wish I had better luck with my metro. In need of more repairs. Bought it fairly cheap for a winter beater to save rust on the VW. But it burns a LOT of oil and doesn't get much better MPG then my Dodge truck. One fix at a time. I am down to the crash sensor on the Golf and then I can get to the Metro. Don't have the space and money to do too many at once. And that is why I do my own repairs-money. I understand not everyone feeling comfortable doing their own repairs. My father - and I quote him "can't change oil on a spark plug". He said that with a straight face not knowing what he had just said. He would NEVER do more then check his own oil and change a flat tire. Oil changes are a challenge for him honestly. I have made it easier with the valve on the oil pan and a window cut in on the 2013 Passat -but either I or my brother still do it.

I've been looking into repurchasing a Geo Metro, as a second car - naturally, they are all old at this point. From what I have found, once the engine ages, and the compression drops, oil consumption goes up & MPG goes way down. From average of 50 to around 35.

Not sure its worth rebuilding or replacing the engine, especially when $ is the issue (same situation for me....). Unless you put a ton of miles on it, the better MPG won't cover the cost. Well, unless you do the rebuild yourself......

Will be rebuilding myself. Body is in good enough shape for where I live considering the rust/salt. I would prefer to have the Metro rust out and leave the VW's rust free as long as I can. Plus-a backup vehicle never hurts (or 2 or 5). It is the electronics that is more of my weak point.

To resurrect an old thread - 80K or 100K? I thought it was 100K, but I have no problem changing mine at 80K. Franko6 replaced my cam and rebuilt my head when the TB failed at 258K, and I'm now almost at 330K. I'll be doing a trip to the East Coast and back soon, so I figure that'll bring me close enough to 80K, and I already have all the metalnerd tools needed to do the change.

80K according to everything I read. California mandated a longer interval on timing belts (not just for VWs) but since the BEW TDIs were banned from being sold in the CPR, that doesn't apply.
Since the dealer had changed it at about 72K just before I bought my Jetta in 2011, I had Guru Matt Phelan (Matt-98AHU here) change it in October 2011 as part of a 150K service.

So, how are the goats doing, and how are you and your mom doing in Bandera with the pandemic? I hear nightly about a spike in Texas.

Dennis

romad said:

80K according to everything I read. California mandated a longer interval on timing belts (not just for VWs) but since the BEW TDIs were banned from being sold in the CPR, that doesn't apply.
Since the dealer had changed it at about 72K just before I bought my Jetta in 2011, I had Guru Matt Phelan (Matt-98AHU here) change it in October 2011 as part of a 150K service.

So, how are the goats doing, and how are you and your mom doing in Bandera with the pandemic? I hear nightly about a spike in Texas.

Dennis

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Hey Dennis. We've been well. Our county's cases almost tripled overnight, but from 6 to 16. We also have under 23K people, so it's really not a lot. From what I hear, it's a matter of resting at home and getting over it (here in the county). I'm not too worried; being around my cows and goats, I'd think my immune system is pretty resilient (and I haven't had the flu in like a decade and a half).

I actually just got an answer from dieselgeek - original belt is 80K, their belt is 100K (what's on the car since the head was rebuilt at 258K). I guess that gives me some time then.

pkhoury said:

Hey Dennis. We've been well. Our county's cases almost tripled overnight, but from 6 to 16. We also have under 23K people, so it's really not a lot. From what I hear, it's a matter of resting at home and getting over it (here in the county). I'm not too worried; being around my cows and goats, I'd think my immune system is pretty resilient (and I haven't had the flu in like a decade and a half).
I actually just got an answer from dieselgeek - original belt is 80K, their belt is 100K (what's on the car since the head was rebuilt at 258K). I guess that gives me some time then.

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Good to hear that.
I bought my replacement belt from IDParts so I may ask them what is the interval for it.

BTW, what brand was the belt you installed?

pkhoury said:

I actually just got an answer from dieselgeek - original belt is 80K, their belt is 100K (what's on the car since the head was rebuilt at 258K). I guess that gives me some time then.

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I don't think this is correct. VW changed the interval from 100K to 80K several years ago. My own opinion (not verified by anyone) is that VW wanted to create an opportunity for dealers to inspect camshafts. Regardless, the timing belt PN didn't change, and some literature may show a 100K interval. But VW's recommended change interval for any assembly is 80K miles.

I would think that the QUALITY of the materials used and of the manufacturing process would determine life span. However, the fact that a California government agency declared timing belts have 105,000 mile change intervals means either there are special heavy duty belts (probably containing Aramid fiber?) just for the CPR or all belts are supposed to last for at least that long, but the auto manufacturers and their dealers arbitrarily require more frequent changes to boost profits.

There's no variation in recommended intervals between major timing belt component manufacturers for the PD engined cars (Gates, Continental, INA, GMB). Nor is there for earlier (or later) cars. Some people are more confident with one manufacturer than another, but any of the major suppliers' kits will last the full 80K interval. Beyond that, you're on your own.

Can belts and components last longer than their recommended change interval? Sure. How much longer? Who knows? Not a good gamble to take, in my opinion. I postponed changing the timing belt on my Miata (time, not miles) but that's not an interference engine. Worst case I'd have to get it towed. On TDIs, the consequences are more severe.

And since California banned the sale of diesel cars beginning 1 Jan 2004 until the common rail engines were released, its 105,000 mile timing belt doesn't apply to them. However it does apply to new MY vehicles sold after the resumption of diesel car sales.

You're safe there. '09 and later cars have a 120K mile change interval. Regardless, I'd consider CA's rule nonsense. Whose guidance are you better off following, the engineers who designed the engine and tested the components and selected suppliers, or legislators?

IndigoBlueWagon said:

You're safe there. '09 and later cars have a 120K mile change interval. Regardless, I'd consider CA's rule nonsense. Whose guidance are you better off following, the engineers who designed the engine and tested the components and selected suppliers, or legislators?

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Remember that here the California Air Resources Board doesn't care what the engineers say; CARB has total control over anything, including parts, that affect vehicle emissions.

I'd be interested to know if or how they enforce a timing belt change interval.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I'd be interested to know if or how they enforce a timing belt change interval.

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Probably by requiring it and any damage be fixed by the dealer for free if it fails before 100,000 miles. Of course this would be via the emissions rules under a new car's emissions warranty, and for those outside the warranty if the owner can prove the mileage when the broken belt was installed and when it failed. Be interesting who is responsible for out-of-warranty failures, belt manufacturer, service shop that did the installation, vehicle manufacturer. CARB doesn't really care about the details.