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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old March 27th, 2006, 07:45   #76
SUNRG
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Update: The G52 that addressed the "spider gear humming" issue in earlier 02J manual transmissions is the synthetic G052171A2 that lists for $34.07 / liter (not the mineral based G052726A2).


thanks to karlaudi for sending me this TSB. karlaudi also noted that this Nov. 2001 TSB may have since been superseded.
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Old March 27th, 2006, 09:31   #77
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Okay, so given the date of the TSB, should I believe that there was G52 (synthetic) in my '03 Jetta from the factory, or G50?

Wondering if I'll start to experience the spider-gear hum now with the G50 in there. What exactly should I be listening for?
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Old March 27th, 2006, 09:59   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDInownow
Okay, so given the date of the TSB, should I believe that there was G52 (synthetic) in my '03 Jetta from the factory, or G50?

Wondering if I'll start to experience the spider-gear hum now with the G50 in there. What exactly should I be listening for?
these are good questions & i don't know the answers.

to me, it seems if you're going to spend the big bucks to get G50, the synthetic G52 is only a few dollars more and it may be the best bet.

my understanding is that some dealers do not carry G50 (special order only) and my local dealer has plenty of the synthetic G52 in stock, so maybe the G50 manual transmission spec. has been completely superseded.
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Old March 27th, 2006, 10:05   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
DD sent me some G50, and I just got the V@100c results back from the lab - 15.6 cSt.


Viscosity Comparison @ 100 C
(Manual Tranny Fluids)
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90

15.6 = VW G50 (synthetic)
15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler)
6.3 = VW G52 (mineral)

?? = VW G52 (synthetic - G052171A2) Anyone have some they can send me to get lab tested?

Thanks for the information. That validates the desicion I made in Jan - 2003 to use MT-90. It only improved upon my driving pleasure. Michigan, 2002 Golf.


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Old March 27th, 2006, 12:22   #80
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From AndyH's post above:"If we select lower viscosity fluids than recommended (such as G052726A2, Synchromesh, or ATF), we can expect higher rates of wear due to lower film strength – higher wear means more friction, more heat, earlier fluid failure, and shorter seal life. If we select higher viscosity fluids, we can expect a drop in fuel economy, more generated heat because of the extra work required to overcome the resistance of the thicker fluid, stiffer shifting both hot and cold, and sticky synchronizers as a start. We’ll also have increased rates of wear and can have early bearing failure because the heavy fluid can’t get into narrow passages as well as the proper fluid."

Using G52 would mean faster wear of fluid and components. Anyone can chime in on the accuracy of this statement?
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Old March 27th, 2006, 13:52   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDInownow
Okay, so given the date of the TSB, should I believe that there was G52 (synthetic) in my '03 Jetta from the factory, or G50?

Wondering if I'll start to experience the spider-gear hum now with the G50 in there. What exactly should I be listening for?
If you check your Bentley Manual / CD-ROM you will see that VW selects the grade of gear oil based (G50, G51, etc.) on the Transaxle used, as determined by the Engine code. As stated previously the viscosities are all the same. The TSB I supplied SUNRG came from my CD-ROM which was current through the 2002 model year. None of the transmissions listed used G52 as original fill, yet this TSB was included.

For information on the correct grade of gear oil, consult with your Dealer's Parts Department and / or get the latest Bentley Manual, either hard copy or CD-ROM. and / or contact VW since they willl provide hard copies of all current TSB's for $4.00 for the first copy and $2.00 each for additional copies. Robert Bentley Publishers, I believe, still provides updates for the CD-ROM Manuals for a nominal fee.

Also, please keep in mind that VW does not specify changing manual transmission gear oils as part of regular maintenance schedules, only checking and then adding fluid as needed.
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Old March 28th, 2006, 07:03   #82
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Quote:
...VW selects the grade of gear oil based (G50, G51, etc.) on the Transaxle used, as determined by the Engine code. As stated previously the viscosities are all the same.
this thread was started because the above is not true.

OEM G50 (synthetic) V@100c = 15.6cSt

OEM G52 (mineral / G052726A2) V@100c = 6.3

the difference is jeyegundo!

what we all want to know is:

OEM G52 (synthetic / G052171A2) V@100c = ??
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Old March 28th, 2006, 10:49   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Hound
The marketing guys at VW must be thinking that some suckers will buy anything.

Particularly when the "synthetic" label gets applied to group III and group IV bases, as well as the group V base (group V is the only thing you get from Redline), I think I will stay with the Redline I have been using in my '00 transaxle. MTL, no problems (leaks, shifting, notchiness, etc) for 160k miles. Since it is much more shear stable than anything else on the market, I don't anticipate ever changing it unless it decides to become a self machining device.
Powder Hound,

Group III can be called 'synthetic' in the Americas, but not in Europe. Euro and Japanese 'synthetics' must be man-made base stocks - so Euro synthetics must be Group IV and/or Group V.

Andy
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Old March 28th, 2006, 10:54   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
this thread was started because the above is not true.

OEM G50 (synthetic) V@100c = 15.6cSt

OEM G52 (mineral / G052726A2) V@100c = 6.3

the difference is jeyegundo!

what we all want to know is:

OEM G52 (synthetic / G052171A2) V@100c = ??
Rob,

I'm going to get a quart of both G052 products today and get samples to the lab. I want to know what the synthetic looks like, and I want a 2nd datapoint on the 6.3 cSt from G052726A2. I'm still very surprised the fluid's this thin.

Andy
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Old March 28th, 2006, 14:48   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyH
Rob,

I'm going to get a quart of both G052 products today and get samples to the lab. I want to know what the synthetic looks like, and I want a 2nd datapoint on the 6.3 cSt from G052726A2. I'm still very surprised the fluid's this thin.

Andy
awesome! & thanks!

FWIW - i drained the Motul Gear 300 yesterday and filled with Redline MTL. so far it shifting nice. it's real warm here so it may be a few seasons before it gets cold tested.

cheers!
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Old March 29th, 2006, 01:26   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
this thread was started because the above is not true.

OEM G50 (synthetic) V@100c = 15.6cSt

OEM G52 (mineral / G052726A2) V@100c = 6.3

the difference is jeyegundo!

what we all want to know is:

OEM G52 (synthetic / G052171A2) V@100c = ??

SUNRG, please. What is in VW's Service Manuals is quite clear.

VW and Audi do not tell you that to select the correct gear oil for your VW / Audi transaxle/transmission/ final drive you must first have an independent lab analysis first, before selecting the "correct" refill oil.

All the oils listed in the Bentley Manual, I previously referred too, are all listed as 75W-90 oil viscosities, regardless of the specification of G50 or G51, and as the oil(s) to be used in the transaxles of the models covered.

What determines what “grade” to use, be it G50 or G51, is the Engine Code. Which varies depending on the year and type of engine fitted. Of the 35 engine codes listed, only one transmission is identified – “5-speed, 02J".

Of the 35 Engine codes listed, for the models covered, 24 transmissions are determined to need “G 50 gear oil 75W-90 (synthetic oil)” and 11 are determined to need “G 51 gear oil 75W-90 (synthetic oil)” .

Consulting the ZF North America / ZF Friedrichshafen AG website reveals that even ZF selects transmission fluids based on OEM part numbers, almost exclusively, while referencing too select oil company names/part numbers.

For Example:

Product Groups: 5HP24, 5HP24A (1)

According to spare part number of vehicle manufacturer:
ZF Lifeguardfluid5 x
=> Audi Oil No. G 052162A1x
=> BMW Oil No. 8322 9407807x
=> Citroen Oil No. Z 000169756x
=> Jaguar Oil No. JLM 20238x
=> Mercedes Benz Oil No. A 0019892203x
=> Peugeot Oil No. Z 000169756x
=> Porsche Oil No. 999.917.547.00

(1) Fill differential and transfer box with gear oil Burmah SAF-AG4 (Audi / VW Oil No. N 052145000, Porsche Oil No. 999.917.545.00).

(2) Fill differential with gear oil API GL-5, MIL-L-2105D, MIL-PRF-2105E, SAE J 3260, SAE grade 75W-90 / 90.
x
Additives of any kind added later to the oil change the oil in a manner that is unpredictable, and they are therefore not
permitted. No liability of any kind will be accepted by ZF for any damage resulting from the use of such additives.



PLEASE REFRENCE for the above example:

Car Driveline
Technology
Manual and automatic transmissions for cars List of lubricants TE-ML 11
The list of lubricants TE-ML 11, Edition 01.01.2006 replaces all
previous editions. The current list can be requested from any ZF
after-sales service center or accessed on the Internet under
www.zf.com.
ZF Getriebe GmbH
Südring
D-66117 Saarbrückenx
phone: + 49 681 920-2497x
fax: + 49 681 920-2388



While it is fun to "tinker", taking a single oil analysis "fact" and trying to draw some conclusion about what “correct” oil is be used in a transmission without conclusive "proof" that the “original fill” gear oil is either the source of a present or future problem; when so little of the actual “properties” of the OEM approved fluids is little known; were there are no “control groups”; nor is a "tear down inspection" of the "test" transmission provided; it makes me wonder how you can draw the conclusion(s) you do beyond some desire to find some fault, any fault, with the VW “Factory method”.

Although, I am truly glad you having fun doing it!
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Old March 29th, 2006, 01:32   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyH
Rob,

I'm going to get a quart of both G052 products today and get samples to the lab. I want to know what the synthetic looks like, and I want a 2nd datapoint on the 6.3 cSt from G052726A2. I'm still very surprised the fluid's this thin.

Andy
Around 1987 BMW began using ATF in their manual transmissions, and may still to this day, as I no longer keep current with BMW. Having a "thin" fluid is no suprise to me.
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Old March 29th, 2006, 07:05   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlaudi
Of the 35 Engine codes listed, for the models covered, 24 transmissions are determined to need “G 50 gear oil 75W-90 (synthetic oil)” and 11 are determined to need “G 51 gear oil 75W-90 (synthetic oil)” .

Consulting the ZF North America / ZF Friedrichshafen AG website reveals that even ZF selects transmission fluids based on OEM part numbers, almost exclusively, while referencing too select oil company names/part numbers.
If I understand this correctly, when some one asks what should they use in their transaxle the best answer is to consult the manual..
telling other members that the lube they experimented with is good/better and they should use in their application is "bad advice"
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Old March 29th, 2006, 08:05   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlaudi
SUNRG, please. What is in VW's Service Manuals is quite clear.

VW and Audi do not tell you that to select the correct gear oil for your VW / Audi transaxle/transmission/ final drive you must first have an independent lab analysis first, before selecting the "correct" refill oil.

All the oils listed in the Bentley Manual, I previously referred too, are all listed as 75W-90 oil viscosities, regardless of the specification of G50 or G51, and as the oil(s) to be used in the transaxles of the models covered.

What determines what “grade” to use, be it G50 or G51, is the Engine Code. Which varies depending on the year and type of engine fitted. Of the 35 engine codes listed, only one transmission is identified – “5-speed, 02J".
So what about people, like myself who complain of hard shifting in cold weather with the OE fluid??? Am I condemned because the manual states to use G50? I don't think so...

And what about dealers now stocking G52 and putting it in 02J transmissions where the manual also states G50!!??? Obviously, G52 is compatible with older 02J transmissions where G50 was specified otherwise there would be a warning on the bottles or VW would have warned dealers of the consequences. They even put out a TSB for the gear whine fix prescribing switching to G52! The manuals are not always correct.

Reality is that there is one thing that is necessary for these transmissions: a GL-4 fluid. It's viscosity is not a mandatory parameter.
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Old March 29th, 2006, 09:42   #90
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Quote:
While it is fun to "tinker", taking a single oil analysis "fact" and trying to draw some conclusion about what “correct” oil is be used in a transmission without conclusive "proof" that the “original fill” gear oil is either the source of a present or future problem; when so little of the actual “properties” of the OEM approved fluids is little known; were there are no “control groups”; nor is a "tear down inspection" of the "test" transmission provided; it makes me wonder how you can draw the conclusion(s) you do beyond some desire to find some fault, any fault, with the VW “Factory method”.
karlaudi - you and i don't disagree. from my initial post:
Quote:
TITLE: stick with (OEM) G52 in ur tranny - here's why...

If your transmission specifies G52 fluid I highly recommend sticking with it as opposed to changing it out for one of the popular/common replacement manual transmission fluids because the viscosity of G52 is much thinner:
Viscosity Comparison @ 100 C
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90

6.3 = OEM G52 (part numbers G052726A2 / G05272601)
**the 75-90 viscosity of common gear / manual transmission oils is IMO not suitable for use in VW transmissions where G52 is specified.**
i am not recommending second guessing VW. i've repeatedly posted that my shifting with G52 was just fine. i personally am experimenting with some other manual transmission fluids - but i'm not recommending that anyone else does. i have stated that IMHO if someone was bent on going with something other than OEM mineral G52 that Redline MTL seems like it may be the most similar after-market option.

you wrote:
Quote:
(G50, G51, etc.) ... As stated previously the viscosities are all the same.
i took "etc" to mean G52, and the viscosity of G52 is not the same as G50 or G51 - that's all.

you've been referring to your 2002 Bentley Manual. below is page 34-15 of the 2005 Bentley. regarding the two G52s (mineral and synthetic) it states "Viscosity is not specified for either gear oil." i have had the mineral G52 repeatedly lab tested (used sample tested 4x, new sample tested 2x) and its V@100c is 6.3cSt or very close to that. because it is clearly NOT a 75w-90 gear oil i've recommended "sticking with OEM G52 if that's what your transmission specifies" because as AndyH has stated, using a fluid that's significantly thicker than what is OEM specified can decrease performance and increase wear.



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