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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old March 24th, 2006, 10:29   #61
LessIsMore
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............

Last edited by LessIsMore; November 20th, 2007 at 20:25.
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Old March 24th, 2006, 11:00   #62
Frank M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LessIsMore
I see, so are you saying that one oil is the same as another? That also seems to be VWs possition, when they fill with ATF and spec 75w-90 in the manual.
I do not get that from what I have stated..

However, if someone thinks one lube is the same as another, they will soon find out the truth.

Many manual transmissions used to use ATF. In recent years many manufactures have their own lube for both auto and manual transmissions and I have seen problems by not using them.
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Old March 24th, 2006, 14:14   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LessIsMore
If you drain a gear box and observe swirls of glitter in the oil, are you learning the same thing that an analysis will tell you or something better. IOW, does the analysis detect these large particles? If one oil drains black and another drains amber, should this info be treated as anecdotal, and therefore inferior to oil analysis? When I pulled the plug on my factory fill, the the plug was coated with a dark scum, as was the entire internal surface area of the gear box I imagine. How does the oil analysis account for this material?

I’ve only seen your G52 lab analysis and another one at BITOG. Yours was nothing to jump up and down about and the other one was flat out bad.
Peter - I just wanted to know what you based your opinion on. I do feel lab analysis is valuable.

FWIW - the other G52, the fully-synthetic G052171A2, lists for $34.07 per liter! Maybe it is the ultra-mega-super gear oil of all of our dreams - i don't know of anyone that's tried it in a TDI though...

supposedly, the fully-synthetic G052171A2 is what was in the MK5 GTI 6-speed manual i test drove the other day . that shifted fine - though i did miss one downshift (probably my fault).

cheers!
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Old March 24th, 2006, 14:27   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_594
..... Im running the G52 in my 2000 Jetta. Smoothe as melted butter when warm, but when it gets cold it feels more like a frozen block of butter.
Use G052 synthetic and it will be the best it can be when you have sub zero temperatures.
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Old March 24th, 2006, 14:50   #65
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DD sent me some G50, and I just got the V@100c results back from the lab - 15.6 cSt.

Viscosity Comparison @ 100 C
(Manual Tranny Fluids)
16.7 = Motul MOTYLGEAR 75-90
15.6 = Redline MT-90 75-90

15.6 = VW G50 (synthetic)
15.2 = Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90
15.2 = Motul Gear 300 75-90
15.0 = Elf Tranself Synthese FE 75-90
14.9 = AMSOIL AGL 80W-90
13.8 = Amsoil MTG 75-90
10.6 = Redline MTL 70-80
9.6 = AMSOIL MTF Synchromesh Trans fluid (GM/Chrysler)
6.3 = VW G52 (mineral)

?? = VW G52 (synthetic - G052171A2) Anyone have some they can send me to get lab tested?
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Old March 24th, 2006, 15:28   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank M
Use G052 synthetic and it will be the best it can be when you have sub zero temperatures.
Yeah but some have complained of notchyness in the 02J tranny...
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Old March 24th, 2006, 17:38   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
LOL - this is sooo true. my shifting was fine and fuel economy very good but here i am tinkering...

i can't help myself though!!

honestly - i've decided i really like the 14.0 cSt Motul Gear 300 that's in now!!!
Rob,

How much difference did you feel when you changed either to or from the G52 to the significantly heavier fluids?

Andy
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Old March 24th, 2006, 18:21   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
Peter -
FWIW - the other G52, the fully-synthetic G052171A2, lists for $34.07 per liter! Maybe it is the ultra-mega-super gear oil of all of our dreams - i don't know of anyone that's tried it in a TDI though...

supposedly, the fully-synthetic G052171A2 is what was in the MK5 GTI 6-speed manual i test drove the other day . that shifted fine - though i did miss one downshift (probably my fault).

cheers!
The G052171A2 is the recommended gear box oil for all the Bora 6-speed transmissions I found listed in the Euro ETKA, be it for a gasser or TDI.
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Old March 24th, 2006, 20:27   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
supposedly, the fully-synthetic G052171A2 is what was in the MK5 GTI 6-speed manual i test drove the other day . that shifted fine - though i did miss one downshift (probably my fault).

cheers!
I put it in my NB a couple of years ago.
It stopped my spyder gear hum and shifts excellent in sub zero temps..
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Old March 25th, 2006, 10:05   #70
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Default Request for Info and Viscosity Caution

Folks,

I'd like to request that we include the year and transmission (especially if not the transmission the car came with when it was born). We're all commenting on how a certain product feels or performs in our car, but this info is basically meaningless with out knowing what the hardware is.

Tied to my first request/comment are these cautions:

- The first choice for any fluid should be one that meets the OEM required specifications and viscosity for your specific piece of equipment.

- Before one can select an alternate product, we must know the OEM requirement. The fluid properties, characteristics, and specifications were based on the engineering of the specific piece of hardware. Different transmissions will probably require different fluids.

Here’s a quick summary of what can happen if we experiment without proper info.

- A gearbox that was being monitored with oil analysis and vibration analysis failed catastrophically
- The gearbox was replaced with a new unit, refilled with fluid, and put on-line
- The replacement gearbox failed after two days of service
- The gearbox failed – twice – because ISO 680 viscosity fluid was used instead of the OEM recommended ISO 320 gear lube

Keep something in mind here – ISO 680 IS a recommended fluid for this gearbox – for a specific range of temperature and duty conditions. This was NOT a case where the operators decided to second-guess the engineers.

You can read the full article from this month’s “Practicing Oil Analysis” magazine on-line at http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=849&relatedbookgroup= OilAnalysis&title=Confirm%20OEM%20Recommendations% 20-%20Replacing%20the%20Problem%20May%20Not%20Remove% 20the%20Problem

Bottom line for us TDIers: Those of us with older cars – with transmissions designed during a time when the industry was using ‘universal’ fluids – should stick with the recommended 75W-90 GL-4 synthetic. If we select a GL-5 fluid, we can expect synchronizer problems from either friction modifiers (slipping) or extreme pressure additives (sticking, corrosion). If we select lower viscosity fluids than recommended (such as G052726A2, Synchromesh, or ATF), we can expect higher rates of wear due to lower film strength – higher wear means more friction, more heat, earlier fluid failure, and shorter seal life. If we select higher viscosity fluids, we can expect a drop in fuel economy, more generated heat because of the extra work required to overcome the resistance of the thicker fluid, stiffer shifting both hot and cold, and sticky synchronizers as a start. We’ll also have increased rates of wear and can have early bearing failure because the heavy fluid can’t get into narrow passages as well as the proper fluid.

The ‘Lesson Learned’ from the Noria / Practicing Oil Analysis article is this: “Recommended lubricants should also be confirmed if in question. Case in point: this gearbox suffered a level of wear that could have been avoided. It is safe to say that much useful life was lost from this unit to this common error. While operating conditions may occasionally warrant the use of a lubricant other than that recommended by the manufacturer, the OEM recommendation should be strongly considered as the starting point. Careful testing and documentation should be conducted prior to making a viscosity change in any piece of equipment.”

“While it is widely understood that using a lubricant too low in viscosity will result in insufficient lubricant film, it is also important to understand that using a lubricant too high in viscosity can produce similar problems. In this case there was an apparent loss of lubricant film due to the reduced oil flow through small passages, which were designed for a lower viscosity lubricant.”

Andy

Last edited by AndyH; March 25th, 2006 at 10:12.
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Old March 25th, 2006, 22:42   #71
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I just put in Mobil 1 75w-90 in my tranny and dont really like it. I have a 1999 and I just noticed that the Mobil 1 is GPL-5 which I think is incorrect so that may be why. Its really hard to get into gear when its cold and I noticed in the above chart it is 15.3 so thats probably why. Im going to the dealer on monday to get the correct fluid and Ill count the Mobil 1 as flushing out my trans.
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Old March 26th, 2006, 14:11   #72
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Frank, do you still have any of this oil left over? If you do would you be willing to send out a sample for testing? If you dont want to/done have any I would be willing to order a liter of it to send out a sample from.

It seems like this would be the next logical step in our testing. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank M
I put it in my NB a couple of years ago.
It stopped my spyder gear hum and shifts excellent in sub zero temps..
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Old March 26th, 2006, 15:02   #73
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I don't have much to add, but I'll chime in anyway.

After looking through all the info here, I took the plunge and used the G50 when we did the 681...procured from worldimpex at a whopping $21 per liter. I read some negative reviews on the redline on other sites (non-TDI related) and figured I'd just bite the bullet.

What I will say is that I thought the old fluid in my '03 looked pretty good for 110k. But so the question is, was the factory fill for the '03 G50 or G52?

J.
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Old March 26th, 2006, 17:38   #74
Frank M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_594
Frank, do you still have any of this oil left over? If you do would you be willing to send out a sample for testing? If you dont want to/done have any I would be willing to order a liter of it to send out a sample from.

It seems like this would be the next logical step in our testing. Right?
the pic of this empty container was taken a couple of years ago.
i have sent the container to the recyler.
sorry

Last edited by Frank M; March 26th, 2006 at 17:45.
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Old March 26th, 2006, 21:17   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
...FWIW - the other G52, the fully-synthetic G052171A2, lists for $34.07 per liter! ...
The marketing guys at VW must be thinking that some suckers will buy anything.

Particularly when the "synthetic" label gets applied to group III and group IV bases, as well as the group V base (group V is the only thing you get from Redline), I think I will stay with the Redline I have been using in my '00 transaxle. MTL, no problems (leaks, shifting, notchiness, etc) for 160k miles. Since it is much more shear stable than anything else on the market, I don't anticipate ever changing it unless it decides to become a self machining device.
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