Water Methanol injection on a TDI?

That's cool. I just bought 50 gal of M1 methanol from Eagle Raceing fuels. Keep in mind Denatured alcohol and acetone will also work when m1 is not available. I have tried them all
I am running a blend now 40% water 30% methanol 30% nitromethane it's what I'm calling my power Blend.

A real winning formula there, given that methanol has less than 1/2 and nitromethane ~1/4 the BTU/pound as Diesel, and the stoichiometric ratios are 6.5, 1.7 and 14.6, respectively...

We shall see..... I will start with 60/40 water/meth. Fire&TDI had success with that ratio.

*at least i'm running a pure mixture* ie not washer fluid.

Doing the baseline dyno tomorrow. Kit install will begin next week. Then I will schedule a follow up dyno. Expensive to do where I'm at, but I really want to know, and also settle some disputes and claims.

3 pulls on the dynojet here is 120 bucks btw.

Fire&TDI said:

That's cool. I just bought 50 gal of M1 methanol from Eagle Raceing fuels. Keep in mind Denatured alcohol and acetone will also work when m1 is not available. I have tried them all
I am running a blend now 40% water 30% methanol 30% nitromethane it's what I'm calling my power Blend.

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Isn't it a little hazardous storing that amount of methanol at your home? Or is it somewhere else? I saw that a 55 gal drum was around 300 bucks but then you have to pay shipping & find a safe place to keep it. I have Hazmat containers designed for that at work but they would fire my ass in a second if I put methanol in there.

How come you havent posted any dynos of all your different blends. It looks like you dialed it in pretty precisely.

APR, lol, boom.

H2O2H said:

APR, lol, boom.

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I see you're not a fan of APR. I didn't learn of Malone until a while after I had already gone with APR. At the time I only knew about Revo, Unitronic, and APR.

I seriously doubt anything will "go boom" though. Doesn't seem like sound advice to me.

808tdi said:

We shall see.....

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We shall see... what?

Who makes the best propane kit?
Is it a better advantage over No2?


09 Jetta TDI 2.0 CR.
Snow Performance Water/Methanol Injection Kit.

flee said:

Are they putting the tanks on the LCA's?

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..corrected

Fire&TDI said:

Who makes the best propane kit?

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..Hank Hill

You don't need LPG since you should be able to get plenty of fuel with fuel mods. If you want lower EGTs and denser charge, run nitrous. Want to go even cooler spray water-meth

Fire&TDI said:

Is it a better advantage over No2?

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It's N2O. Nitrous is not an added fuel like LPG. If you need more fuel and don't care about heavy tank(s) in the boot, go for it

I have always wondered why people are so opposed to propane, especially when most peoples point is the tank; why not use these small tanks, which are readily available?



now, i will add the caveat that in my application, i would like to run propane (or some cooling injection) on a momentary switch or boost signal triggered device; as well as my car only see's a couple thousand miles of use a year...

just curious? seems like this would be an easy, inconspicuous tank to hide in the car, easy to replace when needed...just pull over and find a wal-mart/target, etc....

One big reason not to run LPG is preignition..

Propane has a lower flash point than D2. If the goal is to reduce PCP then propane isn't the answer. However, the argument FOR propane could be made if you are too lean already and need more fuel than fuel mods can provide. I would run reduced timing and double check regulator function if I ran propane..

If you want to cool things down, water meth is cheaper and easier to adjust with progressive controllers that could be used to follow boost or the TPS

There are also CO2 kits that can spray the outside of the IC...also cheap to refill
Not sure how effective those are. BP of CO2 is -70F. Nitrous comes out at around -130F

Just noticed you are up in NC around Pisgah, I am just down in greenville SC...

I am only asking for my own edification...just a caveat

So, lets use my case in particular...right now with the compounds and R783s....as of my ride into work this morning (b/c its not going to rain today for once!)...i got on it a couple times, seems to be right at 50psi, +/- 5psi given the gear/load...i never saw EGTs get above 1050F

so at this point it seems that fuel is my limiting factor, as i know i can continue to make more boost by changing my LP turbo...or getting a set of Whitbread nozzles...which is likely going to happen...but just curious as to what the effect would be to spray Propane/Nitrous/Water Meth in my X-over pipe...we put a bung in it last time it was out...

No need to play with fire and blow up your expensive engine Mike, install bigger nozzles and at most water injection, maybe a small shot of nitrous to help burn with huge nozzles but you already have the air, now just need more fuel.

JFettig said:

No need to play with fire and blow up your expensive engine Mike, install bigger nozzles and at most water injection, maybe a small shot of nitrous to help burn with huge nozzles but you already have the air, now just need more fuel.

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for sure, it seems to have become a subject of "just dont do it" rather than letting people become educated...so that is all i am trying to do, is learn the pro/cons to each...

definitely planning on doing some bigger nozzles as soon as i can...chatted with matt about it a few weeks ago...just gotta try and find the funds...really want to get that head too and start building it so i can just swap it and injectors this winter...

How about those monster Firad +120%? Aren't those the "cat's meow" for PD?

Of course, I'm sure Matt has even better options

..and yep I'm really close to Caesars Head (276) for curves and highway 11 for some triple digits

Mike, you can't control ignition very well with propane, either bent or broke rods, cracked pistons, or lifted heads happen. Most truck guys that use propane use it on a stock-ish setup.

loudspl said:

How about those monster Firad +120%? Aren't those the "cat's meow" for PD?

Of course, I'm sure Matt has even better options

..and yep I'm really close to Caesars Head (276) for curves and highway 11 for some triple digits

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no ****! i live on the north side of g'ville! pretty much in travelers rest! actually rode my rode bike (bicycle) up ceasars head this spring for a charity ride! wicked fun coming down! my wife and i got married at pretty place too! you are really close, you should wonder down this way sometime or we could plan a gtg in bravard or something...

as far as the+120%, ive talked to RyanP about them a bit, as well as Matt, kinda of mixed reviews...Im going to work with Matt so he can get some of his nozzles out in the market and get some data on them

JFettig said:

Mike, you can't control ignition very well with propane, either bent or broke rods, cracked pistons, or lifted heads happen. Most truck guys that use propane use it on a stock-ish setup.

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gotcha, i need no more head lifting issues...ugh...sounds like water/meth is going to be my best bet...

Just make sure its at least 60% water or you'll run into the same issues!

I run 40% water 60% methanol on highway it works pretty well pulling high 40s on mpg in the East Tennessee hills.


09 Jetta TDI 2.0 CR
Bullydog Rapid power module.
Snow Performance MPG MAX Kit.

fouckhest said:

no ****! i live on the north side of g'ville! pretty much in travelers rest! actually rode my rode bike (bicycle) up ceasars head this spring for a charity ride! wicked fun coming down! my wife and i got married at pretty place too! you are really close, you should wonder down this way sometime or we could plan a gtg in bravard or something...

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Sweet. Yeah it's a small world! Try hiking up to Pretty Place sometime from Jones Gap State Park! It's the most rugged terrain in SC for sure. I hike in that area all the time
I think Peter's son (IDParts) works at the college I live near in Brevard and Daniel & Landon are in Asheville too. Usually the GTGs are at Appalachian Diesel Works (Daniel's shop) in Alexander (near AVL)

fouckhest said:

as far as the+120%, ive talked to RyanP about them a bit, as well as Matt, kinda of mixed reviews...Im going to work with Matt so he can get some of his nozzles out in the market and get some data on them

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If you can't get higher than 1050F on the pyro under load I think you really need some more fuel. Not the LPG variety either lol. Get some monster holes on that thing. I wouldn't look for more boost just yet. Seems like you're using what you've got to the full extent already (assuming mapping has exhausted those R783s)

fouckhest said:

gotcha, i need no more head lifting issues...ugh...sounds like water/meth is going to be my best bet...

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It looks like you don't really have an EGT problem just yet. Water-Meth, intercooler sprayers (CO2/N2O), or AWIC aren't really necessary ATM. In my opinion, you need fuel. I would bet you have a pretty high AFR right now. I would aim for close to 17:1 or slightly less and then work on mods to improve the burn. You do have higher injection pressures to work with compared to a VE so maybe that will allow you to run some unique nozzle configurations who knows

loudspl said:

Sweet. Yeah it's a small world! Try hiking up to Pretty Place sometime from Jones Gap State Park! It's the most rugged terrain in SC for sure. I hike in that area all the time
I think Peter's son (IDParts) works at the college I live near in Brevard and Daniel & Landon are in Asheville too. Usually the GTGs are at Appalachian Diesel Works (Daniel's shop) in Alexander (near AVL)

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I have heard about that hike! I'm sure it'll be in the works at some point...the wife likes hiking more than I do, I prefer to be on a bike...but I bet one day we will get around to it...

definitely keep me posted on an GTGs that you guys do, I would like to come check it out!

loudspl said:

If you can't get higher than 1050F on the pyro under load I think you really need some more fuel. Not the LPG variety either lol. Get some monster holes on that thing. I wouldn't look for more boost just yet. Seems like you're using what you've got to the full extent already (assuming mapping has exhausted those R783s)

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yeah, i think we have some more final tuning to be done, but it runs pretty well at this point...hopefully this winter i can get some work done

loudspl said:

It looks like you don't really have an EGT problem just yet. Water-Meth, intercooler sprayers (CO2/N2O), or AWIC aren't really necessary ATM. In my opinion, you need fuel. I would bet you have a pretty high AFR right now. I would aim for close to 17:1 or slightly less and then work on mods to improve the burn. You do have higher injection pressures to work with compared to a VE so maybe that will allow you to run some unique nozzle configurations who knows

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i would be interested to know what the AFR is right now...trying to get on a local dyno at some point this fall

Water/Methanol injection

I have been told that the engine is not heavy duty enough to handle water/methanol. has anyone installed a kit on there car? tell me if it is a good idea.

Its not a good idea. Runs fine on diesel using correct motor oil. Accept no substitutes.

Lot of people running it. There are several threads in the high performance forum about it.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13

Still just driving a mass-market diesel sedan. If you want high performance, purchase another car.

808tdi said:

Are you basing this on your personal experience via owning a water/meth kit and not seeing any gains on a dyno or to MPG? Or perhaps you're a mechanic and have installed these kits and run tests with no effect?
I'd like to know what you base your "facts" on because I did A LOT of homework before I decided to put water in my engine, believe me.



I'll probably take you up on that at some point here. Too bad there aren't a lot of members on here that live in Hawaii. I would bring the beer and food for some help on this. If not I have a shop that I usually go to that does good work. It's funny that I have no problem working on trucks and generators but I hesitate to work on my own TDI.

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How is it going? Get it installed?


09 Jetta TDI 2.0 CR
Bullydog Rapid power module.
Snow Performance MPG MAX Kit.

Fire&TDI said:

How is it going? Get it installed?


09 Jetta TDI 2.0 CR
Bullydog Rapid power module.
Snow Performance MPG MAX Kit.

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Yep, its installed now. Pics are in my Sig below. I need to throw it on the local dynojet to confirm the results.

How do you have your injection set? Mine activates at 10, power mode at 17 and max flow at 20psi.

MPG on at 14 max 20 power mode on at 18.
I had some bucking issues below 12psi if not under full throttle. I actually set my No2 solenoid to come on with power mode with a 50hp jet on a dry system. But with the methanol it makes it like a wet system.


09 Jetta TDI 2.0 CR
Snow Performance MPG MAX Kit.

i thought gas is normally used. like diesel and propane. or is that only big rigs?

Water Methanol injection

Got the rawtec Delete kit installed with 3" pipe all the way back. Waiting on Malone tune. I also upgraded my No2 kit to progressive solenoid 10-75hp ran off boost cooler ECU. Upgraded methanol tank to 4 gal and 3 nozzles instead of 2 ( one is plumbed into wet no2 kit) I'm estimating 200-230 HP without spray. Well over 300 with N02 and methanol spray.
And getting about 2 more mpg with just the delete and no tune. Expecting mid 40s around town and 50 on trips. Is that unrealistic?


09 Jetta TDI 2.0 CR
Snow Performance MPG MAX Kit.