Need some help with a good crank and no start

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Dieselworld

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Location
Atlanta, GA USA
Chris_TDI_98 said:
I also follow the scientific method and require hard proof in order to say something is a fact.
I tend toward there being no or not enough fuel reaching the cylinders.
Can you pull injectors and visually inspect they aren’t jammed up with sludge?
If the injectors were jammed blocked, what would the car do? Exactly as it’s doing right now, isn’t it, crank and fail to start??
Do you have a locking fuel tank cap??
Click to expand...

No locking cap. I will take a line loose, spin it around with the injector and crank it.



Do you guys want me to do another update video with everything done and shown up to date?
 
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Dieselworld

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Location
Atlanta, GA USA
eddieleephd said:
Rule it out then, do a test and eliminate it absolutely or risk chasing your tail thinking it's good.

If voltage is low to the shutoff solenoid it could be limiting the available fuel and thus the pressure that the pump can put out. Broken wire can cause this.
As I said in my last post I saw no smoke in the tail pipe, white or black, and that means no fuel.
He said hes getting fuel to the injectors, however, doesn't seem to be enough pressure to send it into the pistons, otherwise, there would have been smoke coming out. What other reasons are there to rule out?
Click to expand...

Batt voltage to shut off solenoid and I have even run a wire directly to it from the battery just to rule that out.
 
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eddieleephd

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Location
Battle Ground, Wa
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2002 jetta Wagon
Dieselworld said:
No locking cap. I will take a line loose, spin it around with the injector and crank it.

Do you guys want me to do another update video with everything done and shown up to date?
Click to expand...
I think a list of accomplishments would be nice so we can see a complete list of things done and the result. A video could help as hearing and seeing what's going on.

Dieselworld said:
I am getting a lot of smoke while cranking now. I think in the video I said after it was shot I redid the timing and it was off a few degrees. Its right on the money and belching smoke as I am cranking. Taking off the cat really helped with cranking speed, it was pretty blocked up, but still no start.
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How do you mean off a few degrees? cam to crank, or IP?
At this point if the IP timing is out it could be injecting too soon, or late, for combustion to happen. Is it at all possible that the pump is 180 out?

Definitely think you should do the poor mans pop test to see what's happening with the injection events.
I keep going back to electrical input to the pump, you said there's battery voltage to the shut off solenoid. What is the voltage, I don't like to assume anything and battery voltage can cause a no start.


Check the wiring to the cam and crank sensors, make sure there's not to much resistance, RPM would be decreased at the dash if there was impedance across that wire.


Intermittent issues with the crank sensor can cause crazy issues as well, the failing sensor can plausibly cause increased crank time until it just goes kaput.

KeithOfOhio said:
PROBLEM SOLVED - Failing to find out if there was any way to test for a good crankcase speed sensor, sometimes called a crankcase position sensor, I purchased a new one and my car now starts again. I also now have a test to offer to others.

Symptoms: Go to start the car and it sputters for maybe a second and then further cranking yields nothing. After a few more cranking tries and letting it rest for a few minutes, it would again sputter as if wanting to start for maybe a second and then further cranking yields no start.

Problem: The crankcase speed (or position) sensor has failed and needs to be replaced. The computer needs to know the speed of the engine for proper injection timing. Reportedly, the engine will not be allowed to start if the engine is not spinning at at least 300 rpm. A sensor failure is not part of the ECU programming; so, no error code is generated. Would be nice if the computer could say; "Gee, you have the starter running for three seconds yet I see zero rpm, maybe the sensor is broken - here's a precautionary error code."

Testing: There are many failures which may give the same result and it is assumed these are also being considered. The " 038907319 A mod " now replaced with "F mod" crank sensor has three pins which feed into the ECU. Pin 1 to 102, 2 to 110, and 3 to 86 on my 2001 Golf 1.9 TDI ALH Mk4 manual car. These match the schematic in my Hayes book.

Pin #1 and Pin #2 show continuity with a VOM tester; ie. they are like a continuous wire. On the broken one, there was no continuity indicated a broken wire, connector, or internal failure. Pins #1 and #2 are the two sides of a sensor coil while #3 is a shield ground There are three harness plugs in a holder between the IP and the engine block; a black IP plug, a sensor gray plug, and a black plug to the #3 injector (needle lift sensor). Simply unplug the middle one (gray) and test for continuity of the lower two pins.

The crankcase speed sensor is located underneath the harness plug holder mentioned above. It is held in place on my Golf by yet another anti-owner-repair bolt; this one requires a 12-point 9mm box-end wrench; an equivalent socket is best.
Click to expand...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=443358


I realize the thread above is an ALH, however, there's not really that much difference in the way they work.


pruzink said:
When you look in Vagcom at engine speed; this is the sensor that tells the ECU that piece of information. When you are at idle speed; this input (engine speed) is what the ECU will adjust the fuel injection to maintain the desired idle RPM. If this signal isn't there (or if it faulters intermittently like mine did); the car just turns off as if you did it with the key. I'm not so sure if this sensor on the BEW engines reports anything having to do with crankshaft position. The camshaft has a position sensor & the setup for knowing camshaft position is quite different.
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ncroadwarrior said:
its not the sensor that goes bad , its the wire insulation breaking down inside the plug ...or thats what was found on mine...would start and run , wiggle connector and engine would die...replaced sensor all good,
disassembly of old sensor showed wiring chaffed INSIDE the connector where no one could possible see that any problem existed...fwiw
Click to expand...

In order to run this down, you need to leave no stone un-turned. Start where the ECU does and look at everything it does before starting is allowed, then look at what is supposed to happen first. Like I said earlier, even if you don't think it's bad rule it out. Maybe you have another crank sensor from another vehicle that you can swap?
Price isn't that bad either
https://www.idparts.com/crankshaft-position-sensor-g28-a4-alh-early-p-3300.html


I know you tested it with a DMM, however, all the reading I have done about the crank sensor says that it and all the wiring to and from it needs to be eliminated from the issue equation.
 
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eddieleephd

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Location
Battle Ground, Wa
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2002 jetta Wagon
k_pt said:
Compression test? Timing?
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compression tested good, timing lines up, however, injection timing I am curious about as that can be something that could cause smoke and no start.


rewatching the video I keep come back to the fact that it's most likely something easy just being missed, or not thought of.
crank sensor and wiring being completely eliminated with all the funky VW wiring issues and electronic control.


Another thought that comes to mind when watching the video is the first time I did a TB Job on my first TDI. I followed the howto to the T and learned that it's actually a bit wrong. When I put the belt on with the IP locked and everything lined up the cam and crank were absolutely in time with each other. However, I wasn't able to get it started immediately so I fooled with the IP timing and finally got it to start. Driving it around it was a coal roller. After driving it around a few days I decided to try again and I learned to loosen the sprocket on the pump and turn it counter clockwise one tooth, so when the belt stretches it pulls the pulley into time, so that it was actually timed properly. The howto assumes that there's enough room to adjust to proper injection timing, my experience was very different as stated above.
 
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Dieselworld

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Location
Atlanta, GA USA
Ok so I found at least one issue my crank sprocket is toast on the back. I think it was deformed just enough to throw the timing out after extended cranking. The crank snout looks just fine. So when I did the belt I checked it 4 separate times and everything was dead on. However I had not yet attempted to start it.


After I had buttoned everything up, a few times it acted like it was beginning to fire, then nothing. My theory is this: From the multiple times I was cranking it over, the gear shifted just enough maybe not even a degree and of course it wont start at that specific timing. How it shifted with the bolt being that tight I cant say.



In any event I called the VW dealer and of course the sprocket and bolt is discontinued the sprocket part number is 028 105 263D I have no idea the bolt part number. I did a cursory google parts search and only a few places even sell them. I don't want to get some Chinese POS for this part, so can anyone point me to seller that has good quality?



While I am there I am going to replace the harmonic balancer just for good measure.

Pic of the gear below:
http://dieselgiant.com/IMG_0435.JPG
 
Steve Addy

Steve Addy

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Iowa
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97 Mk3
The crank sprocket bolts are readily available in the aftermarket, Febi makes them, I keep a few around just in case. The sprockets too are easily found, even NAPA sells them and of course IDParts has both of these items.

Searching on the part number tends to bring up more results if you delete the spaces.

If yours is bad definitely get a new one on order and installed. No sense in letting your engine turn into a boat anchor because of a simple sprocket.

Steve
 
Steve Addy

Steve Addy

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Iowa
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97 Mk3
Dieselworld said:
I ment the sprocket NLA not the bolt. I ordered a bolt and some seals while I was there.
Click to expand...
Like Abacus said I'd get another parts source, cuz Ellis VW in Atlanta says (online) that the sprocket 028105263D is available.

I'd probably buy it in the aftermarket before I'd buy one from VW though, the price seems a little excessive.

My search results are here

Steve
 
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Dieselworld

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Location
Atlanta, GA USA
Steve Addy said:
Like Abacus said I'd get another parts source, cuz Ellis VW in Atlanta says (online) that the sprocket 028105263D is available.

I'd probably buy it in the aftermarket before I'd buy one from VW though, the price seems a little excessive.

My search results are here

Steve
Click to expand...

I called Jim Ellis and they tell me it is essentially NLA. They said its not "officially" discontinued but there are none in the USA and they cant get it. In my experience at least with the VW almost everytime I buy an aftermarket hard part, it fails. I would rather find a Genuine VW one and only have to do the job once. I was really close to grenading the engine with this. Had I kept trying stuff and cranking away, it might have moved enough to let the pistons and valves kiss.
 
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eddieleephd

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2002 jetta Wagon
Glad you went back and looked it over, how did you find it?
That's definitely enough to stop the injection from happening, or at the right time...
 
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Dieselworld

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Location
Atlanta, GA USA
eddieleephd said:
Glad you went back and looked it over, how did you find it?
That's definitely enough to stop the injection from happening, or at the right time...
Click to expand...

Well I went back to check all the timing and I was off 2 teeth on the flywheel. That is maybe not even 1 degree but I knew something was not right. So off came the belt and as I was pulling the harmonic balancer it and the cog were loose. Not only that but the bolt was out a few threads.:eek:


When I did the timing belt it was tight and everything was spot dead on. My theory is all the cranking since then just exacerbated the gear issue and threw it off slightly. When I did the belt I probably rotated the engine over around 5 times and did that on 4 separate occasions to make sure the timing was perfect.
 
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Dieselworld

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Location
Atlanta, GA USA
Ok so I have the new crank sprocket on but managed to slightly mess up one of the 4 bolt holes that the harmonic balancer bolts use. I need to run a tap in there. I have no idea what the thread specs are so does anyone know? I called Metalman but he was not available at the time.
 
k_pt

k_pt

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pt
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VW MKIV TDI
dieselworld said:
ok so i have the new crank sprocket on but managed to slightly mess up one of the 4 bolt holes that the harmonic balancer bolts use. I need to run a tap in there. I have no idea what the thread specs are so does anyone know? I called metalman but he was not available at the time.
Click to expand...
n90339603? M8.
 
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Dieselworld

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Location
Atlanta, GA USA
What I was looking for was the thread size and I found my metric tap set finally. The thread if anybody ever needs it is M8x1.25mm. I have the threads back perfectly now. Started doing the timing belt and of course the rain started.:(
 
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eddieleephd

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Battle Ground, Wa
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2002 jetta Wagon
And moments before I could get it out...
You answer it yourself...
Match the bolt to a nut, and then nut to tap. Should be 1.25 pitch and 8mm sounds correct, 10 are the fattest bolts, and 6 are the smaller stud size.
1.5 should be the course thread size, correct? With your tap set...
 
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eddieleephd

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Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
Dieselworld said:
What I was looking for was the thread size and I found my metric tap set finally. The thread if anybody ever needs it is M8x1.25mm. I have the threads back perfectly now. Started doing the timing belt and of course the rain started.:(
Click to expand...
Is it up and running? How goes it?

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