www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > General Automotive

General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 5th, 2017, 21:48   #3766
CraziFuzzy
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Jurupa Valley
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
VeeDub, of course there are exceptions but to suggest that "many" EV buyers keep their EVs for the long haul really is a stretch. While shopping for an EV, most choose leasing over buying an EV for two main reasons:

1.) Lease payments on an EVs are artificially affordable. The manufacturer needs those CARB credits, and is willing to take a big loss per unit to obtain them. As an example, I've found leases for $30,000 Kia Soul EVs at $99 per month. The CEO of Fiat once said they lose $14,000 on every 500e they produce. https://insideevs.com/fiat-ceo-fiat-...ery-500e-sold/

2.) An EV's main traction battery has a finite lifespan. People don't want to get stuck with a degraded battery.

Leasing has lead to the proliferation of vehicles. That's not a stretch. In the last few years, the population in my city has had modest growth but there has been an explosion in both the number and size of car dealerships. I think that's a trend that's happening in other cities too. From an environmental point of view, I don't see that as a win.
I don't think a proliferation of vehicles is absolutely a negative thing. It depends on the reason for the proliferation.

The negative you attest to is the manufacturing costs, which yes, additional vehicles being produced would increase manufacturing costs (environmental and otherwise). However, manufacturing costs do need to be spread out over a vehicle's lifetime, and the operating costs (environmental and otherwise) of EV's is decidedly lower.

Now, on to the issue of MORE vehicles being owned/operated. This cost is a function of miles driven and the impact per mile. Simply having more cars out there being owned does not necessarily mean more miles being driven. My personal scenario, for instance, was ADDING an EV to the family fleet. That EV did not add a single mile to our annual driving - but it DID affect which vehicle we chose for a given task. All the around town miles the Fiat 500e is driven is miles the Armada and Azera (12 and 25 mpg, respectively) are not driven. This is decidedly a huge environmental positive from the usage load of the vehicle, even though it's an additional car added to my fleet.

Based on range anxiety that is still a real (marketing) problem, I think MOST EV's being purchased are in situations like mine - an additional car to an existing fleet of vehicles. However, more cars out there does NOT mean more miles driven, and as such, is not necessarily an absolute negative. Having more tools at one's disposal results in a higher likelihood of having exactly the right tool for the job, which results in a job being better performed because of it.
CraziFuzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 10:05   #3767
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post

I don't know what kind of warranty Mercedes offers on the batteries, but Tesla has 8 years/unlimited miles on theirs *edit: On new cars, and excluding the 60 KW/hr battery(not sure if that applies to the model 3). A typical model S owner can expect to have about 90% capacity left at 150k miles. The good news is that lithium ion battery chemistry is constantly improving, and production costs/ consumer cost is dropping like a stone.

The battery warranty on for my 36 kWh pack is 8-years / 100K miles to 70% capacity. That does give me some comfort that Mercedes risk analysts / accountants probably consulted with Tesla engineers and figured there's little chance that they would have to spring for a battery replacement because the battery degraded to less than 70% of it's original capacity during the warranty period. The Model S 60 is also at 70% and 8 years, but at 125K miles. Larger battery models have "infinite mile" warranties.

Interesting that the Bolt EV has a larger 60 kWh battery with the same 8-year / 100K mile warranty but they will only replace it if it goes under 60% of original capacity.

I don't think you can quote the "typical" degradation numbers for the Model S because they vary between the size of the battery packs and other variables such as where they are driven & stored. Some are in hot conditions like Arizona while others are in more temperate states. Owners quote degradation of between 1% - 5% per year. It's all over the map.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...-degradation-1
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.
Oilerlord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 11:15   #3768
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
I don't think you can quote the "typical" degradation numbers for the Model S because they vary between the size of the battery packs and other variables such as where they are driven & stored. Some are in hot conditions like Arizona while others are in more temperate states. Owners quote degradation of between 1% - 5% per year. It's all over the map.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...-degradation-1
Average would have been a better term than typical. I was basing that off of the data points in the graph here:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ta-show-so-far
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 11:41   #3769
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
I don't think a proliferation of vehicles is absolutely a negative thing. It depends on the reason for the proliferation.
I try not to frame arguments in absolutes because they seldom apply in real world scenarios like the one you listed above. Should we ban the selling of new cars? No. Should we all go out and buy a new car tomorrow? Of course not. Is the car you traded in going to be driven by someone else? Sure.

I'm simply stating that people who are concerned about GHG's, should recognize that GHG's are produced during the manufacturing of a new car, regardless of how it's fueled. Personally, I don't care if people lease a new car every 3 years but I do question those that do so in the name of saving the planet. In terms of a personal carbon footprint scorecard, the person that buys one fuel efficient car, and maintains it over the course of 10 years
is being more environmentally responsible than the person who, in 10 years, has ordered their 4th new car.

I don't think that the good environmental practice of "Reduce" is limited only to using less gasoline.
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.
Oilerlord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 11:45   #3770
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

Yep, agreed. Personal responsibility is a broad spectrum of things.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 11:48   #3771
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Average would have been a better term than typical. I was basing that off of the data points in the graph here:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ta-show-so-far
You quoted 150,000 miles. The data from the link you posted was in KM.

From the report:

"The data appears to show that capacity remains between 90 and 95 percent, on average, even at 150,000 km (93,000 miles)."
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.
Oilerlord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 12:00   #3772
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
You quoted 150,000 miles. The data from the link you posted was in KM.
From the report:
"The data appears to show that capacity remains between 90 and 95 percent, on average, even at 150,000 km (93,000 miles)."

Look at the graph- the last data point is at 240,000 km , which is pretty darn close to 150k miles. That car had nearly 92% capacity remaining. The last several data points show over 90% capacity at over 220,000 km.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 12:54   #3773
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Look at the graph- the last data point is at 240,000 km , which is pretty darn close to 150k miles. That car had nearly 92% capacity remaining. The last several data points show over 90% capacity at over 220,000 km.
Turbo, are you really going to stand behind a statement based on one car, in one chart you found, that the "average" Model S owner won't lose more than 10% of their battery capacity after 150K miles?

From the link you provided, there simply isn't enough data to support that conclusion. The findings were in KM. You misread them as miles. It's an honest mistake. Let's leave it at that.
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.
Oilerlord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 13:30   #3774
turbobrick240
Veteran Member
 
turbobrick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: maine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
Turbo, are you really going to stand behind a statement based on one car, in one chart you found, that the "average" Model S owner won't lose more than 10% of their battery capacity after 150K miles?
From the link you provided, there simply isn't enough data to support that conclusion. The findings were in KM. You misread them as miles. It's an honest mistake. Let's leave it at that.
It wasn't a mistake. 240k km is close enough to 150k miles for me to extrapolate. I agree, one data point isn't enough to make a conclusive determination(which is why I mentioned the last three data points), but the trend line is plain to see. Sometimes you just have to work with what data is available. Data trumps speculation.
turbobrick240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 15:25   #3775
Chris
Veteran Member
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
...I'm simply stating that people who are concerned about GHG's, should recognize that GHG's are produced during the manufacturing of a new car, regardless of how it's fueled. Personally, I don't care if people lease a new car every 3 years but I do question those that do so in the name of saving the planet. In terms of a personal carbon footprint scorecard, the person that buys one fuel efficient car, and maintains it over the course of 10 years is being more environmentally responsible than the person who, in 10 years, has ordered their 4th new car.
I don't think that the good environmental practice of "Reduce" is limited only to using less gasoline.
It's not as if these cars are being discarded at that rate though (by this, I mean they continue in the general on the road fleet, rather than being pushed off of a cliff).
Does their entry into the general fleet cause more cars to be discarded?

I agree that the person who owns the vehicle over the long haul is being more personally economical but I'm not sure that translates into environmentally responsible, particularly.
__________________
Chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 16:27   #3776
Oilerlord
Veteran Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post

I agree that the person who owns the vehicle over the long haul is being more personally economical but I'm not sure that translates into environmentally responsible, particularly.
Ok guys, I give up. You win.

Let's make the planet a better place by accelerating the production of more cars. Millions of them. Why not mandate 2 year leases instead of 3? That way, we'd have even more lease returns sitting on dealer lots. Not enough room for all those cars? Simple...build larger dealerships all across the country. More cars = clear win for the environment. Makes perfect sense. Not sure why I'm wasting my time with rain barrels and planting trees.

I have no idea why I'm researching the refurbishment my EV's battery to extend the overall service life of the car - when the obvious answer for lowering global GHG's is just replacing it with a brand new two-ton lump of steel, glass, and petrochemicals every three years.
__________________

Malone Stage 2 / DSG Flash / Rawtek Exhaust.
Oilerlord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2017, 18:36   #3777
RabbitGTI
Veteran Member
 
RabbitGTI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Wisconsin
Fuel Economy: Don't know. I just feed it and drive.
Default

Mazda says not so fast I love those guys "because driving matters".

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...ws&date=120617

https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/2017-cx-5-diesel
__________________
Rabbit GTI racecar RIP, 84 Rabbit GTI, 88 Golf GL, 97 Passat TDI, 07 Jetta 2.5, 02 Beetle 2.0, 08 Jetta 2.5 with Aisin Box.
RabbitGTI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2017, 03:11   #3778
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast
ToofTek Inventor
 
bhtooefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newark, OH
TDI(s): None
Default

Ultimately, if a highly efficient vehicle is replacing an inefficient vehicle, the payback period ends up being within the service life.

If an EV is replacing another EV, that's wasteful... but then the used EV might replace another inefficient vehicle making it flip back to not being wasteful again.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
bhtooefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2017, 06:26   #3779
El Dobro
Veteran Member
 
El Dobro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: NJ
TDI(s): 2014 Volt
Fuel Economy: 120 MPGe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
Ultimately, if a highly efficient vehicle is replacing an inefficient vehicle, the payback period ends up being within the service life.

If an EV is replacing another EV, that's wasteful... but then the used EV might replace another inefficient vehicle making it flip back to not being wasteful again.
Those that can't afford them when new can buy them when used. Win, win.
__________________
"Drink the Kool-Aid" -Jim Jones
"Baa-baa-baa" -Sheep
"He's opening our minds to new ideas, KILL HIM!!!" -Futurama
Now, I drive more, worry less.
Penguin -The other white meat.
El Dobro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2017, 07:53   #3780
wxman
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: East TN, USA
TDI(s): Other Diesel
Default

According to GREET, replacing a Golf TDI with 60,000 miles on it (i.e., scrapping it) with a new eGolf would take 6,200 miles to offset the NOx emissions from manufacturing the gGolf, 1,600,000 miles to offset VOC emissions, 400,000 miles to offset the CO emissions, 39,000 miles to offset the GHG emissions, never offset the PM emissions, and never offset the SOx emissions.

This was based on the average of the emissions that WVU measured in their "real-world" driving study of the 2012 VW Jetta TDI (Thompson et al., "In-Use Emissions Testing of Light-Duty Diesel Vehicles in the United States." International Council on Clean Transportation Report, May 15, 2014).
wxman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 9 (5 members and 4 guests)
aja8888, Oilerlord, nwdiver, RabbitGTI, El Dobro
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GM, Nissan and Tesla Premier New Electric Vehicles in Detroit MarcusW General Automotive 1 January 17th, 2013 12:24
How many states exempt diesel vehicles for emissions? Angus Scrimm TDI (Diesel) Emissions 26 January 10th, 2011 22:25
Plug-in or Full-Electric Vehicles? bad idea TornadoRed General Automotive 63 January 16th, 2010 17:46
Extending range in Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) nicklockard General Automotive 1 March 6th, 2005 14:39
GM pulling the plug on electric vehicles BHarrison TDI News/Tech 4 May 7th, 2003 12:20


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.26278 seconds with 13 queries
[Output: 143.75 Kb. compressed to 122.15 Kb. by saving 21.60 Kb. (15.03%)]