fuel mileage, recall/defeat device in all cars?

I'm new to the forum and 2 months new to my 2011 golf tdi (6 speed manual). I bought the car from the dealer certified pre-owned in nearly immaculate condition, 17k miles.

apologies if this question has been covered in the past few days, but I've spent some time looking and, so far, nothing.

like many newbies on here, I've been a little surprised by the people boasting 50-60mpg. I do most of my driving around town, so I don't expect as much, but around town I'm usually getting low 30s. On the hwy-only trips I've taken, the best I've gotten is 42mpg, driving about 70 the entire way (I80 is straight as an arrow and flat here in iowa). The car has new tires (VW 17" wheels with conti tires), new filters and everything else required for the dealer to sell as certified pre-owned. I have the recommended 38psi in the tires.

this is probably far-fetched, wishful thinking, but is there any chance that because I just got my car from the dealer two months ago, that the software "defeat device" isn't on my vehicle and I'm seeing lower gas mileage than others because the emissions system actually *is* working on my car.

otherwise, like other people, I'm scratching my head wondering why I'm not breaking the low 40s in mpg. I drive the stick very conservatively, often shifting up before the little arrow even turns on and never downshifting to break with the engine. I drive with a light foot.

You are well into where you should be. Those that are getting 50 to 60 mpg are either lying or are doing extraordinary things to get there. Go look on the fuelly site filtered for your car and see. There is nothing wrong with you or your car. Your expectations for 50 to 60 mpg are out of line though.

Hmmm, interesting Lightflyer1 thinks that it takes lying or extraordinary things to get 50-60mpg...

I have a 690 mile "commute" that i do every 3rd week

Speed ranges from 65-80mph for the trip
3 construction zones across Ohio Turnpike
Start at 700ft elevation, crest 2,900ft back down to 1,100 and then over 3,300ft, and then back to 800ft elevation.
Lose about 3mpg on the Average MFI going up the 2 long grades to the passes.

Then about 100 miles of city driving, 30-50mph, 5 miles max trip length

The last 10 tanks averaged as follows according to delta miles and fuel gallons data input into fuelly:
53.67, 51.58, 50.07, 53.07, 46.38, 53.04, 50.76, 50.31, 49.91, 53.24

It's amazing to me the differences these cars have with mpg. We regularly see high 40's on round trips that include driving into the mountains. Granted most of those trips involve traveling on roads with a 55mph speed limit(driven at 62). Our last trip from Pdx to sisters Oregon, and back averaged 46mpg. That's loaded with two bikes on top, two adults, a baby and 60lb dog with camping gear for a weekend inside.

Generally we do get 32-35mpg around town.

I have seen it get over 50mpg twice, both times with my wife driving on trips over 2 hours. Once was 52mpg increasing elevation, the other was 58 mpg on the return trip to lower elevation.

It never gets less than low 40's on trips. We've driven from Pdx to LA a handful of times and always got over 45mpg average on I-5.

My coworker with a 2010sportwagen says he never gets over 40. I don't understand how our 2013 can get so much better mileage. Only way I can explain it is driving style.

Fit

Lightflyer1 said:

You are well into where you should be. Those that are getting 50 to 60 mpg are either lying or are doing extraordinary things to get there. Go look on the fuelly site filtered for your car and see. There is nothing wrong with you or your car. Your expectations for 50 to 60 mpg are out of line though.

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Not really. I've had a handful of 50-53 MPG tanks. For me...it's only happened on LONG roads trips. Everything has to go right for that to happen though. i.e. 600+ mile relatively flat stretch of highway, manual transmission, good fuel (probably not going to happen with winter blend), properly inflated tires, etc.

I've had more than a handful 47-49 MPG tanks. My average commute tank (mostly highway) is in the 44-47 MPG range though.

Yup. The average driver is not going to average 50-60 MPG.

well thank you for detailing your different experiences. it sounds like my numbers are on par with others', and that I should experiment a little more with driving style, air pressure, and so forth, in order to see if I can nudge up my numbers.

but what about the other question...which may be off topic for this sub-forum: is this "defeat device" program in the cars present in every single unit, or is it something that dealers could have reset while doing other maintenance on the cars?

Anything is possible, but the gist of the Volkswagen admission is that all TDI models and years in question are impacted by the "defeat device."

Car doesn't have very many miles yet, and is probably not broken in....
Have you tried different fuel stations? I log all stats on my cars, and have noticed that some stations consistently deliver better mileage than others.
I am pretty sure your car still has the emissions defeat installed still.

man02195 said:

Hmmm, interesting Lightflyer1 thinks that it takes lying or extraordinary things to get 50-60mpg...

I have a 690 mile "commute" that i do every 3rd week

Speed ranges from 65-80mph for the trip
3 construction zones across Ohio Turnpike
Start at 700ft elevation, crest 2,900ft back down to 1,100 and then over 3,300ft, and then back to 800ft elevation.
Lose about 3mpg on the Average MFI going up the 2 long grades to the passes.

Then about 100 miles of city driving, 30-50mph, 5 miles max trip length

The last 10 tanks averaged as follows according to delta miles and fuel gallons data input into fuelly:
53.67, 51.58, 50.07, 53.07, 46.38, 53.04, 50.76, 50.31, 49.91, 53.24

Click to expand...

A 690 mile commute is extraordinary compared to the OP's statement of "I do most of my driving around town". How do you not understand that? Not a fair comparison at all. All highway vs all city. These cars do shine on all highway driving and do very well in the city as well. But to suggest the OP can do as well as you with his driving pattern is just wrong. For the driving the OP is doing they are getting the economy they should be. Show me anyone doing all city driving getting in the 50's or 60's and I will show you a liar or an Eco driver with tons of experience. We are also talking tank averages here, not trip averages which can easily be manipulated.

Highway driving is fantastic for mpg. Indeed, I swear you can track the simple act of slowing down for a rest area etc on any highway trip.

light1, it's a tank average, they're all tank averages. The tanks are 15% to 30% city driving. And your liar comment is still a flame, you should apologize.

Apologize? Please, I never said anything to you personally. You jumped in on my comment and made it about you. Your driving in no way compares to the OP's and their economy numbers prove it. Their driving won't result in your numbers ever. For the driving they do their numbers are to be expected.

Lightflyer1 said:

Apologize? Please, I never said anything to you personally. You jumped in on my comment and made it about you. Your driving in no way compares to the OP's and their economy numbers prove it. Their driving won't result in your numbers ever. For the driving they do their numbers are to be expected.

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You're absolutely correct!

EPA numbers say 30 mpg city:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2011_Volkswagen_Golf.shtml

Yes, one can usually eclipse the EPA numbers, but only so much: I'm ahead by about 15% or so; applying 15% to the 2011 would mean about 34.5 mpg (city).

No sense in lying. 50+ mpg is possible with the NMS, but probably not an overall average of such. Too many variables are involved.

The NMS will easily top 50 mpg if...

Tire pressure and alignment are good.
Quality fuel is being used. (It's variable to say the least.)
Weather conditions are optimal.
Easy acceleration and braking.
Good road conditions. This to include the type of pavement you're driving on.
Longer road trips.
Minimal elevation changes.

Use the TDI as a local grocery getter and you'll soon find out that your economy numbers wil closely match EPA guestimates. Still great but not 50 mpg.

OP is driving a 2011 Golf manual 6 speed mostly city driving. Passat isn't even in the discussion here. Any TDI used for mostly around town driving will get around EPA rated mileage. Period. Take it out on the highway and keep it under 70 mph and upper 40's lower 50's are possible on longer trips. It takes a long way to go from 45 mpg to 50 mpg (trips of several hundred miles or so) on relatively flat roads.

Lightflyer1 said:

You are well into where you should be. Those that are getting 50 to 60 mpg are either lying or are doing extraordinary things to get there. Go look on the fuelly site filtered for your car and see. There is nothing wrong with you or your car. Your expectations for 50 to 60 mpg are out of line though.

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I typically get about 40mpg tank to tank. That's about 60%-40% highway-city. On the few occasions when I've been on a rode trip I have seen 52mpg but it is very rare and I have to keep speed below 70mph. Mid to high 40's mpg isn't unusual

Lightflyer1 said:

Apologize? Please, I never said anything to you personally. You jumped in on my comment and made it about you. Your driving in no way compares to the OP's and their economy numbers prove it. Their driving won't result in your numbers ever. For the driving they do their numbers are to be expected.

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Yep, you shouldn't say things that aren't true. You said "Those that are getting 50 to 60 mpg are either lying or are doing extraordinary things to get there". I'm getting that, and I'm not lying. And you didn't qualify with city mpg, you just said "Those that are getting 50 to 60 mpg are either lying or are doing extraordinary things to get there".

man02195 said:

Yep, you shouldn't say things that aren't true. You said "Those that are getting 50 to 60 mpg are either lying or are doing extraordinary things to get there". I'm getting that, and I'm not lying. And you didn't qualify with city mpg, you just said "Those that are getting 50 to 60 mpg are either lying or are doing extraordinary things to get there".

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I am so sorry I hurt your feelings by not defining that your almost all highway miles are extraordinary compared to the OP's posted question dealing with almost all city miles. Wouldn't you agree that someone that does nearly all their driving in town will never get your numbers? I drove my 2013 Passat for 3 years and the lifetime average was only around 37 to 38 mpg 50/50. On all highway I had numbers that resembled yours. It does a disservice to those that come here and ask their question as this poster did to have you do an inaccurate comparison of highway vs city economy and make them feel like anyone can get 50 mpg tank averages just driving around town.

I am not going to argue about it with you any more. The cars do very well economy wise on longer trips on the highway. They generally do the EPA rated averages +/- in urban situations.

My daughters '03 Automatic gets 35-37 around town and a high of 39.6 driving to Florida and back. The higher you go, the less it takes to make a huge difference in the final mileage. It is still pretty great mileage.

What I do not get is that 2015 models are equipped with the defeat device and also have urea tanks. Why is a urea tank a solution to fix older models yet 2015 models are still being recalled. My friend and I both bought new diesel Sportwagens, his is a manual S model and mine is a DSG. He consistently gets in the high 40s mpg while I am in the high 30s. I know that the manual has taller gears but I do not see how slightly taller gears account for 10 mpg better. We both drive the same style and maintain tire air pressure. City mpg are closer.

Don't thread jack like that. The cars that have urea are said to not be dosing enough to pass. Those without could probably use it to pass with a greater dose rate. All just conjecture though as no one knows yet. Switch cars with your friend and see what happens. I would assume your driving patterns and habits are more different than you imagine. Any questions like this belong in the giant thread reserved for this.

tdiowa2015 said:

this is probably far-fetched, wishful thinking, but is there any chance that because I just got my car from the dealer two months ago, that the software "defeat device" isn't on my vehicle and I'm seeing lower gas mileage than others because the emissions system actually *is* working on my car.

Click to expand...

If you have been a gasoline powered driver in the past, it will take a little while to 'learn' where the optimum power points are for your model of vehicle.

Congratulations on your decision to drive a TDi.

The 'defeat device' is what is described as putting the car in 'test' mode vs real world 'run mode', from what I can gather over the review of the documents.

[My background is in Computer Software-Hardware, and Real-Time Operating Systems, etc]

Is it possible? Yes.

Is it Probable(meaning on a balance of probabilities)? No.

If the vehicle is running in 'run' mode after being at the dealer, then it should be running the way it was designed to run.

This is not to say, that the dealer may have neglected to restore the vehicle to 'run' mode after it was finished being in the shop.

The only way to be sure is to find either someone who has a VCDS or a tuner where the program can be mapped and compared to a known programming for your particular model type.

Since you have joined the family, it might just be the 'newness' of driving TDI, and the right foot syndrome may be a little harder than when you were driving a gasoline powered vehicle. (you will be surprised, if you attach a ScanGauge type of monitor, and in real-time, see the results of throttle position , Temperature of Coolant, and total load).

Start by tracking your trips, and miles driven, ignore the first 10 minutes of driving (this is the warmup time), in your calculations.

After a few fill ups , then you will get an approximation of how well your car is performing.

The website many use for comparison allows for notes to be taken, for more than % City driving etc.

The emission system is working, whether the car detects 'test mode' or not.

How hard the 'system' works to keep the air clean, active regens and other cycles of Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) are happening during your drive cycle, are determined by the real world conditions at that moment in time.

There are ways to detect if your car is faulty , other than a Maintenance-Indicator-Light (MIL) or Other software run flags.

A Variety of things can cause lower than expected MPG results, depending on the way the previous owner(s) took care of the car.

First step is to start tracking fuel consumption.

2nd step is to find an independent trustworthy mechanic and shop that has a VCDS or similar machine.

3rd step is to drive more , worry less.

You have a fine crafted machine that should provide years of driving enjoyment.


Picture of screen scrape of 2011 Golf MPG results - Auto and Manual

[P.S. -- 17K miles is very low mileage for a TDI that is 2 or so years old. This fact may be an indicator of the engine being driven very lightly, and be more suscerptible to intake clogging and EGR restriction. TDIs run best when run hard and hot. Search here for "italian Tune-Up" ]

Notice in the link above to the Fuelly results that the vast majority are in the 33 to 46 mpg range right where you are for the most part. Also notice the tiny, tiny percentage of those getting 50 to 60 mpg. Those people are either eco drivers or spend lots of miles on the highway, unlike you. Enjoy your car!

MPG from new TDi Vehicle

Lightflyer1 said:

Those people are either eco drivers or spend lots of miles on the highway....!

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Not necessarily.

You can achieve excellent results from your diesel powered car by keeping the rpm's in the maximum power band, and by plugging in your block heater (Even in Summer), having the block hot to go 15 minutes before departure.

There are lots of tips, but once you understand the fuel-burn cycle , and the relationship of torque to roadspeed, then you can significantly improve your MPGs.

You don't need to go gentle on the engine, just know where the 'sweet' spot is when its running.

Even if you look at the vehicles that get 55-60 MPG in the feully, and check the Fill-up statis, there are some that just drive moderately short trips.

[Mine for examplle, are over 11,000 miles of driving......., and no, my tatletale Insurance monitor says I accelerate too fast even after 6 moths of practice....]

These are things an eco driver would know and use and not a newbie who just got their car. These are the extra ordinary things that i said people do to improve their economy beyond just driving the car as usual. Our cars don't come with a block heater down here in the lower 48 states so that is another extra ordinary thing and not normal. I don't want to argue with you either. There are things that can be done to get better economy by driving differently and/or using other aids (block heater...). I don't deny that. But those who just get in their car and drive short trips in city traffic are never going to see anywhere near 50/60 mpg, period. The Fuelly stats don't lie. Probably 80% are in the EPA rated range for the car. The others are driving highway and/or employing other tactics to increase their economy.

Terrific-In-Tahoma said:

Not necessarily.

You can achieve excellent results from your diesel powered car by keeping the rpm's in the maximum power band, and by plugging in your block heater (Even in Summer), having the block hot to go 15 minutes before departure.

There are lots of tips, but once you understand the fuel-burn cycle , and the relationship of torque to roadspeed, then you can significantly improve your MPGs.

You don't need to go gentle on the engine, just know where the 'sweet' spot is when its running.

Even if you look at the vehicles that get 55-60 MPG in the feully, and check the Fill-up statis, there are some that just drive moderately short trips.

[Mine for examplle, are over 11,000 miles of driving......., and no, my tatletale Insurance monitor says I accelerate too fast even after 6 moths of practice....]

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Pretty much agree, except, in order to qualify for performing these things you pretty much have to be driving on long stretches of roadway. Just look at your instantaneous fuel mileage (I've got older cars, so I have UltraGauges) and it's clear that stopping, idling and starting really negatively impact fuel mileage. Driving primarily stop and go/city driving will NEVER give 50mpg, don't care how careful you are (again, you'll never be able to achieve those desired behaviors because the environment doesn't allow for it).

Tallest gear, running at and a bit above peak torque for extended periods of time is how to attain the best fuel mileage (sans hypermiling activity, though hypermiling cannot achieve big fuel mileage numbers in stop-and-go/city driving).

Also, keep in mind that a 10% difference looks much bigger when we're looking at higher fuel mileage numbers, vs lower. 10% of 50mpg -> 5mpg (takes 50mpg down to 45mpg). 10% of 20mpg -> 2mpg (takes 20mpg down to 18mpg).

Lightflyer1 said:

These are the extra ordinary things that i said people do to improve their economy beyond just driving the car as usual.

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You are correct. 50-60 MPGs are extra-ordinary, and fall outside the 80% range of a statistical normal. OP was concerned, based on the recent news and the recent purchase of a $10K-$15K car, if the dealer had forgotten to turn on the "eco" mode, and probably how to attain low 40s MPgs.

I contend that getting GOOD fuel consumption is based on driving habits, and not because of fudging the numbers to get High 40s either.

We agree, that driving a TDi is fun, and having to fill up when it has reached 800 miles(1000Km) is a bonus as well.

LightFlyer1 and I disagree on how to get High 40s , to low 50s.

I concur with UhOh that downshift-stop-idle-start-upshift does significant impact to the MPGs.

17" Rims and Conti Low Profile Tires, tells me this car was never expected to drive conservatively, yet that is what the salesperson may have indicated to the Original Poster. [There is some math to the mass of the tires and rims, and accelleration and decelleration vs fuel consumption]

My contention however, is still valid, that it will not take much of an effort to get the low 40s in MPG if the following steps are taken:

1. When driving the first 5 minutes, the engine is in "warmup" mode, and a lot of the fuel's heat is being used to bring the car's oil and coolant from 20C[70F] to 90C[180F]. Avg MPGs would be in the 20s-30s for this duration.

2. After the car has warmed to 90C[180F], then for the first duration of stop and go cycles, run the turbo and RPMs up to 3800 , before shifting to the next gear. This "Italian Tune up" type driving on occasion will heat up the turbo and burn out the carbon deposits that foul up the EGR plumbing.

3. When approaching a stop light, down-shift to the 2nd down gear from what your rolling speed was, as you approach the traffic, then let the engine aid your brake application, and finally as you are approaching the full stop, let the engine drop to idle, as the clutch is dis-engaged.
[LightFlyer1 may consider this as 'eco' driving, I consider it just getting used to the performance of the engine, where is likes to run from 1800 to 2200 RPM to give the best torque.]

4. Drive more. Worry less. You have a great investment (and you have knocked off 4 years of depreciation cost, with only a 17K reading on the clock). On averages, 4 years = 60,000 miles of automotive life. The EPA estimates the life of a vehicle as 120,000 miles or 10 years for some of their calculations( I can be corrected on the specifics).

5. Fill Up with the same fuel brand at the same station regularly, say every 2 weeks, as opposed to once a month, as this tends to even out your drive cycles, vs the actual fuel consumption that the dashboard may say, and give better overall statistics for your ride.

6. When hitting the interstate or equivalent long stretch of driving (10 miles or more) use the cruise control for the road conditions as applicable (not in Snow or Rain), as this keeps the car at a consistent speed, while increasing(decreasing) the fuel throttle faster than a foot can adjust to changes in terrain.

[Official EPA estimates are 30 for the City, 42 for Highway, and 34 for combined, - IF the OP is getting 34~35 for his average driving then the vehicle is fine. If the driving cycle is more towards the city, with stop-go motion, then LightFlyer1 is correct, it will be impossible to achieve high MPG averages without extra-ordinary efforts.]

~Richard

I have no problem accepting there are things that can easily be done to get the mpg up into the mid 40's. It is the 50's and 60's I disagreed with as the OP specifically stated "people boasting 50-60 mpg". I also agree that driving habits are probably one of the biggest variables in the equation of economy. WE don't disagree on how to get better economy, we only disagree on whether it is possible to get that high of economy numbers based on the OP's stated driving scenario (mostly in city driving) and no unusual driving habits (eco driving). Most people don't think like this when driving, just get in and go. The OP's expectation of 50 to 60 mpg from the boasting he heard just driving in city miles is not going to happen. If the OP wants to improve his economy go to one of the eco driving sites and read and learn and implement as many of the techniques as you can into your normal driving. Being careful not to aggravate others while doing so. I use a few myself when possible. I am learning myself as the 2003 Beetle I just bought requires driving differently than the 2013 Passat SEL TDI I just sold.

tdiowa2015 said:

I'm new to the forum and 2 months new to my 2011 golf tdi (6 speed manual). I bought the car from the dealer certified pre-owned in nearly immaculate condition, 17k miles.

apologies if this question has been covered in the past few days, but I've spent some time looking and, so far, nothing.

like many newbies on here, I've been a little surprised by the people boasting 50-60mpg. I do most of my driving around town, so I don't expect as much, but around town I'm usually getting low 30s. On the hwy-only trips I've taken, the best I've gotten is 42mpg, driving about 70 the entire way (I80 is straight as an arrow and flat here in iowa). The car has new tires (VW 17" wheels with conti tires), new filters and everything else required for the dealer to sell as certified pre-owned. I have the recommended 38psi in the tires.

this is probably far-fetched, wishful thinking, but is there any chance that because I just got my car from the dealer two months ago, that the software "defeat device" isn't on my vehicle and I'm seeing lower gas mileage than others because the emissions system actually *is* working on my car.

otherwise, like other people, I'm scratching my head wondering why I'm not breaking the low 40s in mpg. I drive the stick very conservatively, often shifting up before the little arrow even turns on and never downshifting to break with the engine. I drive with a light foot.

Click to expand...

hey there.

I suggest you try the following tire pressure. 43 PSI cold (if using nitrogen) front and 41 PSI cold (if using nitrogen). If using regular compressed air then 41 PSI (cold) front and 41 (cold) rear.

These pressure will affect driving dynamics in the following directions:
Compared to your current PSI you will:
1. Experience less rolling resistance; this means that you will be slowed down less by the bumps on the road.
2. You will get a different ride; by making your PSI higher, you make the tire harder, and you will loose the slack provided by the sidewall at the lower PSI that you are running.
3. You will feel bums more, but cornering will become more crisp. With turning in, mid corner, and corner exit all aspects of the corner will feel more crisp.

That 43 PSI suggestion... The max PSI on your tire sidewall is 44 PSI so once you have your tires warm up your PSI might exceed the 44 max PSI. Since it is nitrogen it should not go up too much. The regular air PSI difference is about 3 to 5 pounds. So I suggested 41 PSI if using regular air.

Remember I believe the sticker on the door says 35 PSI for the OEM tires, if you change the tires then you should contact the tire manufacturer, Don't go by the sticker on the door.

With that PSI I saw 50mpg about 4 times (MDI calculated), on my JSW.

Funny! Low 30's to 50's with just a few PSI of Nitrogen. Still not going to happen. A nearly 20 mpg improvement. Try these instead of that BS:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=200694&highlight=eco+driving

http://www.ecodrive.org/en/what_is_ecodriving-/the_golden_rules_of_ecodriving/

http://www.ecodrive.org/en/what_is_ecodriving-/additional_tips_and_tricks/

http://ecomodder.com/forum/EM-hypermiling-driving-tips-ecodriving.php