TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

car: 2003 alh
Miles: 125,000
Miles on oil 15,000
Oil: D1 ESP 5w 40 Prior 10,000 same Prior to that supposedly Castrol 5w 40 (bought car with 100k)
Make up oil .75l


iron: 30
chromium 0
nickel 1
aluminum 3
copper 222
lead 144
silver 0
vanadium 0
silicon 4
sodium 4
potassium 0
titanium 0
molybdenum 1
antimony 2
maganese 0
lithium 0
boron 30
magnesium 945
calcium 1400
barium 0
phosphours 1039
zinc 1378
soot 0.2%
viscosity @ 100cs 15.1
oida 14
nitration 24


Copper and lead apear to be high along with nitration. What do you guys think?

Nuke1 said:

car: 2003 alh
Miles: 125,000
Miles on oil 15,000
Oil: D1 ESP 5w 40 Prior 10,000 same Prior to that supposedly Castrol 5w 40 (bought car with 100k)
Make up oil .75l

iron: 30
chromium 0
nickel 1
aluminum 3
copper 222
lead 144

soot 0.2%
viscosity @ 100cs 15.1
oida 14
nitration 24

Copper and lead apear to be high along with nitration. What do you guys think?

Click to expand...

15k miles might be okay on some engines, but yours may have been mistreated before you got it. I assume you drained that oil when you drew a sample? Change it again after 5k miles and retest. You need to see a definite downward trend on the copper and lead, because normally those values are <10 and often only 0-2 ppm.

I did change the oil with mobil 1 tdt ci-4 plus I had sitting around. I did get service records with the car when I bought it, that did say they used castrol 5w 40, not that that makes a diff. Where is the lead and copper coming from? Cam and bearings? I do have a intermittent fuel injection problem that I do not have fixed yet, but this should't cause this. It may explain the moderate nitration level though from improper fuel to air ratio. Thanks for your help.

Nuke1 said:

I did change the oil with mobil 1 tdt ci-4 plus I had sitting around. I did get service records with the car when I bought it, that did say they used castrol 5w 40, not that that makes a diff. Where is the lead and copper coming from? Cam and bearings? I do have a intermittent fuel injection problem that I do not have fixed yet, but this should't cause this. It may explain the moderate nitration level though from improper fuel to air ratio. Thanks for your help.

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They said one thing, whether they actually used that oil or maybe some 5w30 for gas-engines only or some other conventional oil, you will never know.

Whatever they did is done -- my reason for suggesting another early oil change and a retest is find out if the copper and lead are just residual. If this much wear is still occurring, then you have a major problem. But if the wear levels drop off sharply, then all will probably turn out okay.

I will sample in 5k and report back. Hopefully it isn't a major problem. Thanks TornadoRed.

2004 Jetta - 130k - UOA summary from BSL...


Big jump in Iron. Should I go ahead and have the cam bearings checked??
I've ran the Pento High Performance II 5w40 (505.01) for all oil changes except the one at 90K when I used Total Quartz Energy 9000 5W40.
Longish commute 75 miles each way.
95% interstate (70 mph) 5% backroads (45 mph).
Thanks in advance.
M.

yosso said:

Big jump in Iron. Should I go ahead and have the cam bearings checked??
I've ran the Pento High Performance II 5w40 (505.01) for all oil changes except the one at 90K when I used Total Quartz Energy 9000 5W40.
Longish commute 75 miles each way.

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The iron is still not bad, but the big increase is a warning sign. I think maybe you should consider a 5w40 with a stronger additive package, or maybe the ZDDP additive, or maybe both.

TornadoRed said:

The iron is still not bad, but the big increase is a warning sign. I think maybe you should consider a 5w40 with a stronger additive package, or maybe the ZDDP additive, or maybe both.

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Thanks for the info. Since I just changed the oil last weekend (130K) I'll have a quick reference number once that sample has been analyzed. I'll be sure to send this sample in this weekend instead of waiting 3 months like last time.
I might do a 5K change out for some M1 TDT if the FE numbers come back high again.
Thanks again and I'll post up the 130K UOA once it's been obtained.
Mike

yosso said:

Thanks for the info. Since I just changed the oil last weekend (130K) I'll have a quick reference number once that sample has been analyzed. I'll be sure to send this sample in this weekend instead of waiting 3 months like last time.
I might do a 5K change out for some M1 TDT if the FE numbers come back high again.
Thanks again and I'll post up the 130K UOA once it's been obtained.
Mike

Click to expand...

Because the only warning sign is the iron, and because it's not really that high, I would not change out the oil prematurely. Unless it gets markedly worse.

first UOA on Ubrwgn

car: 2001 AKN
Miles: 136,600
Miles on oil 5200
Oil: Total Quartz Ineo MC3 505.01
Make up oil .75l total 507
MICHAEL: Iron read mildly high in this sample of used oil, though not high enough to think you have any serious problems developing at steel parts. The universal averages show typical wear from this type of engine after about 6,000 miles on the oil. We would have liked to seen iron read a little lower here, though not all engines wear like our average show and this reading may be normal for this particular TDI. All other wear looks pretty good and the oil was free of any harmful contamination. Check back at the next regular oil change for another look at iron.
iron: 33
chromium 1
nickel 1
aluminum 7
copper 5
lead 3
tin 2
manganese 1
silicon 3
sodium 2
potassium 2
titanium 0
molybdenum 1
antimony 2
maganese 0
lithium 0
boron 3
magnesium 4
calcium 1928
barium 0
phosphours 714
zinc 807
SUS Viscosity @ 210F 62.4
cST viscosity @ 100c 10.89
Flashpoint F 435
Fuel% <0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles %0.3
I started to worry about cam issues when a bunch of the euro members of this board told me OCI on this car should never go past 6K (I have been doing 10, and the VW reccomended is 18KM or 11Kmiles). I'm switching to M1 TDT 5w40, and will test again in about 4K. I have to say, I'm pretty relieved bu this OCI
-Mike

My latest UOA can be found here:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/4231/E04357.pdf

Disregard the Pennzoil, it was Pentosin that was used.

RAW DATA:

Miles on Engine: 68,602
Miles on Oil: 9,434
Oil: Pentosin 5w40 505.01

Aluminum: 8
Chromium: 2
Iron: 40
Copper: 4
Lead: 7
Tin: 0
Molybdenum: 0
Nickel: 1
Manganese: 1
Silver: 0
Titanium: 0
Potassium: 4
Boron: 43
Silicon: 3
Sodium: 2
Calcium: 1814
Phosphorus: 731
Zinc: 867
Barium: 0

Fuel%: <0.5
Insolubles%: 0.3
TBN: 4.2


Couple notes:

I changed from a 5w30 507.00 to a 5w40 505.01 on this change.
My driving pattern changed a bunch with this interval as well. I went from a 20 mile one way highway drive to work, to a 5 mile one way city street drive to work.

Comments?

Wanted to post a very impressive Delvac ESP1 UOA I just got back. This was my first OCI with the ESP1 and I had been using, I think foolishly, VW spec 505 and then 507 oil in my PD. If you look at all the OCI's you'll see just how much better, at MANY MORE miles this CJ4 oil is. I can't believe it, really, but I should have known.

I'm actually going to stretch this next OCI out to 15k and then plan to add a DG Bypass filter setup to the mix if they are available again by then. I'm very interested to see just what effect that will have on the UOA.

Mrrogers1 said:

Wanted to post a very impressive Delvac ESP1 UOA I just got back. This was my first OCI with the ESP1 and I had been using, I think foolishly, VW spec 505 and then 507 oil in my PD. If you look at all the OCI's you'll see just how much better, at MANY MORE miles this CJ4 oil is.

Click to expand...

The lab comments are probably right -- the aluminum and potassium are both higher than normal, but are not getting any worse, so probably nothing to worry about.

You seem to have a nice-running engine.

Here's my latest UOA. Looks pretty consistent to me...comments?
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Sootman said:

Here's my latest UOA. Looks pretty consistent to me...comments?

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The previous problem with high sodium numbers has disappeared. It all looks good now.

Okay... Since I ran all of my 505.01 oils till 7500k, I thought I'd test my first TDT CJ-4 @ 7500k as well. What's up with the nitrates? This oil was put in on 7/18/09. I'll add my info to the database, post #40.

oEo said:

Okay... Since I ran all of my 505.01 oils till 7500k, I thought I'd test my first TDT @ 7500k as well. What's up with the nitrates? This oil was put in on 7/18/09. I'll add my info to the database, post #40.

Click to expand...

7500 miles? Are you sure you didn't send in virgin oil instead of used oil for testing? That does not look like a UOA.

TornadoRed said:

7500 miles? Are you sure you didn't send in virgin oil instead of used oil for testing? That does not look like a UOA.

Click to expand...

That's my UOA! . I've used the same lab each time. I'll test it again at 10k when I drain it.

TornadoRed said:

The previous problem with high sodium numbers has disappeared. It all looks good now.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments. The Sodium I assume is related to the biodiesel I was using. I need to let the lab know that I'm using Total Ineo 3 and no longer use Elf although I believe them to be the same product.

Question for the gurus:

It's time to test my oil again. For the first one, I used the small hand pump pictured below to extract enough oil via the dipstick tube for the lab sample. Do I need to clean that old oil out of the hand pump and tubes before sampling this time? In other words, will the old oil in there mess up the results this time? (I switched from Castrol to Mobil 1 TDT after the last test so want to be sure.) And if I need to clean it out, what's the best way to do that?

Thanks in advance!

Yes, old oil in the rig will contaminate your new sample. That's really not the right way to do it. I use a vacuum rig and virgin tubing so no old oil gets in new sample.

One way you can do it is to pump a bunch of oil through your rig right back into the oil fill hole on engine. This will minimize contamination.

Good idea Ski, thanks!

Ski in NC said:

One way you can do it is to pump a bunch of oil through your rig right back into the oil fill hole on engine. This will minimize contamination.

Click to expand...

That is what I do. I pull enough to fill a "dirty" sample container I have, then pull my "clean" sample, then pour the "dirty" sample back in.

Oil: Shell Rotella T 5w40 CJ-4
Engine: BRM
kms on oil: 16 000km
km on engine: 128 000km

Ag 0
Cu 2
Pb 2
Fe 25
Cr 2
Na 0
B 31
Al 28
Si 5
Zn 1733
Sn 0
Ni 0
P 1727
Ca 967


Visc cSt 100C 13.9
Fuel 0%
Insolubles 0.2%
Water 0%
TBN 8.9
Oxidation 5.4

Another good run and Al has dropped significantly although still higher than I would like. Too bad this oil isn't available anymore.

T6 isn't available anymore? It just came out?!

Whoops. Fixed the typo. Thanks for catching that. That UOA is from the pre-T6 Rotella. When it was just called Rotella T 5w40. It was the first gen CJ-4 Rotella. It was only around for about 6 months and then the T6 came out.

2footbraker said:

Oil: Shell Rotella T 5w40 CJ-4
Engine: BRM
kms on oil: 16 000km
km on engine: 128 000km
(snip)
Visc cSt 100C 13.9
Fuel 0%
Insolubles 0.2%
Water 0%
TBN 8.9

Click to expand...

Based on the sample, that oil still had lots of life left in it. Low soot, good viscosity, TBN very high... you could have gone another 10k kilometers.

2Foot,

These numbers don't look very accurate; I'd consider another lab. For example, the phosphorus levels in CJ-4 oils are chemically limited by the API to 1200 ppm and you're showing 1700+ ppm in this sample. This brings into question the veracity of the other data....

I'd also keep an eye on the aluminum levels, which should be in the high single digits in ppm. This metal can only come from the piston skirts or plain cam bearings....

TS

2004 Jetta First Run on Mobil 1 TDT

Oil: Mobil 1 TDT 5w40
Engine: BEW
M on oil: 5,200
M on engine: 77,200

Al 4
Cr 1
Fe 13
Cu 2
Pb 1
Sn 0
Mo 1
Ni 0
Ag 0
Ti 0
K 2
B 47
Si 10
Na 4
Ca 1928
Mg 683
P 988
Zn 1220
Ba 0

Visc @210F 70.3
Visc cSt 100C 13.02
Fuel <0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insolubles 0.4
TBN 5.7

UOA interpretation assistance needed

Hello,

First time posting a UOA. Below are my numbers from Oil Analyzers Inc. followed by some questions. Underlined values were flagged at the analysis and are referred-to in the narrative.

Background:

This is a 2004 Golf TDI PD BEW with glow plug and flash recall done.

Purchased at 32K miles with a fresh TXT oil change.

Oil history prior to 32K miles unknown.

Oil changed at 40K and 48K with Amsoil AFL 5W-40 European Car Formula.

Mods: Digi-PD,
Miles on engine: 55,000
Miles on sample 7,500
Oil Sampled: Amsoil AFL 5W-40 European Car Formula
Fuel used: mostly B50 - B75 homebrew
Driving: Mostly twice daily 30 minute commutes
Miles per gallon: between 48 and 50

Analysis narrative: [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Data flagged for observation only; FUEL DILUTION is at a MODERATE LEVEL; Flagged additive levels are higher than expected for the lubricant that is identified (This does not imply that the lubricant does not meet proper API, SAE or ISO classifications.); Flagged data has been rechecked and confirmed; Oil is suitable for continued use. Re-sample in 7,000 miles or 125 hours. [/FONT]

Iron 34
Chromium 1
Lead 2
Copper 4
Tin 0
Aluminum 10
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Cadmium 0
Vanadium 0
Silicon 5
Boron 69
Sodium 3
Magnesium 13
Lithium 0
Calcium 2485
Barium 0
Phosphorus 967
Zinc 1168
molybdenum 0
Titanium 0
Antimony 0
Manganese 0
Potassium 2
Fuel GC 3.9%
VIS @ 100c 13.0
Water <.1
Soot Vol. 0.2%
Coolant Neg Neg
TBN 5.64
Oxide 8
Nitra 17

Questions:

What does this indicate regarding wear (especially of cam)? Or in other words, how's this engine doing?

Why would the zinc be flagged as high -- isn't it supposed to be above 1200? If so, isn't it low?

Is the fuel excessive? If so, is it because it's biodiesel? Is that a problem?

Can I really go 14,500 on this oil between changes?

Can I rely on this to guide future change intervals or only this particular oil interval?

How often should this testing be done?

Any and all insight and advice about, and interpretation of these numbers is greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

Eric