post fix DSG update failure - bricked cars with no solution from VW

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
I feel that your trivialization of a horrific crime against a person's bodily autonomy by comparing it to a botched car repair that, in one case at least, the automaker has offered to more than fairly compensate the owner of the car, is incredibly dangerous - calling fairly mundane, if annoying, scenarios "rape" means that actual rape is itself treated by society as less important than it actually is.

But, to get back to the actual topic...



We don't actually know that parts are available to do so - it's very easily possible that VW doesn't stock those parts any more, only the post-fix parts, requiring a vehicle to get the fix.

And, even if they do, as I've told you half a dozen times by now, backing out the fix after already removing the defeat device would be a violation of federal law - the same violation that VW committed by manufacturing the car with the defeat device in the first place.
They *CANNOT* as per the settlement force the fix under any conditions! Go read it again! Thus, they *MUST* support parts with the old code to meet the legal support obligations! And you "telling me stuff" does not mean that you are not just naive, clueless, and/or incorrect . . . you clearly are *NOT* class counsel, not can you comprehend the simple, obvious, fact that a broken car has not had the "fix" . . . thus the only thing being backed out is a botched attempt, and no crime committed. Unless you can quote hard copy from the settlement supporting your dubious claim, I frankly don't want to hear it . . .
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
Ah, the ignore list is a great thing.
it is, but it could use an option to include quoted content in the ignore.

(as seen above, hitting reply includes direct content in a post. so that in this case someone who had you on the ignore list would still see this, if I was not on his/her ignore list)
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
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Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
They *CANNOT* as per the settlement force the fix under any conditions! Go read it again!
How about you provide me with a quote for that, because I can't find it in the Amended 2.0 Liter Consent Decree.

And you "telling me stuff" does not mean that you are not just naive, clueless, and/or incorrect . . . you clearly are *NOT* class counsel, not can you comprehend the simple, obvious, fact that a broken car has not had the "fix" . . . thus the only thing being backed out is a botched attempt, and no crime committed. Unless you can quote hard copy from the settlement supporting your dubious claim, I frankly don't want to hear it . . .
But the Consent Decree doesn't appear to cover this situation (of the repair being completed), meaning it falls back to federal law.

And, what's been claimed in this thread is that the DSG reflash is the last step, meaning the engine (but not the car) has been brought into compliance. It's a violation of 42 USC 7522(a)(3)(B) to install a device that principally bypasses, defeats, or renders inoperative any device or element of design on a compliant engine.
 

craigldavis

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2003
TDI
2009 JSW M/T; 2014 Q7
They *CANNOT* as per the settlement force the fix under any conditions! Go read it again! Thus, they *MUST* support parts with the old code to meet the legal support obligations! And you "telling me stuff" does not mean that you are not just naive, clueless, and/or incorrect . . . you clearly are *NOT* class counsel, not can you comprehend the simple, obvious, fact that a broken car has not had the "fix" . . . thus the only thing being backed out is a botched attempt, and no crime committed. Unless you can quote hard copy from the settlement supporting your dubious claim, I frankly don't want to hear it . . .
Tadawson: most people here are interested in helping each other. To that end, here’s something from the TDI fix paperwork you may want to consider:

If you choose to keep your vehicle but decline the emissions modification at this time, you should be aware that certain emissions-related replacement and repair parts may at some point no longer be available from Volkswagen. Accordingly, in the future, if your unmodified vehicle requires maintenance and repairs of the emissions system we may need to install parts associated with the emissions modification, or, in some cases, install all aspects of the emissions modification.
This is on printed page 10 of the pdf located here: https://www.vwdiesellookup.com/pdf/VWCourtSettlement_Emissions_Disclosure_Gen1_Manual_Final.pdf

I hope you can survive this without a coronary. I know we love these cars. I missed mine like crazy for the week they were working on it. I hated my Passat loaner. It’s stressful but it is just a car. VW customer care is your friend and will help you if you don’t burn that bridge. Honey or vinegar... your choice.

Best of luck.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
How about you provide me with a quote for that, because I can't find it in the Amended 2.0 Liter Consent Decree.


But the Consent Decree doesn't appear to cover this situation (of the repair being completed), meaning it falls back to federal law.

And, what's been claimed in this thread is that the DSG reflash is the last step, meaning the engine (but not the car) has been brought into compliance. It's a violation of 42 USC 7522(a)(3)(B) to install a device that principally bypasses, defeats, or renders inoperative any device or element of design on a compliant engine.
Uh, the fact that you can drive the car without being forced to fix it, perhaps? It's common knowledge . . . And if VW *chose* to abandon all old parts, that will drive even more folks away . . . but still not a legal mandate.

And the detail that you appear to be oblivious to is that if the car won't run, the fix *CANNOT* be completed. It's a binary thing: done or not. Any part not working, not done. The fact that the car is legal unfixed appears to supercede your ranting that they cannot back out a failed attempt. That car was built unfixed, is legal unfixed, and no matter how it gets there, remains legal unfixed . . . seems pretty obvious from here.

But then again, I appear to be wasting my time on this . . . I am not affected, and some folks just choose to read things in that are not there. I feel sorry for those that are in this predicament, since VW is obviously more interested in game playing that getting your cars working. A simple clarification/verification of the legality of a backout from the judge for these special cases would be the easiest path if there is any doubt . . .
 

newbury

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Location
Fairfax, VA/Fulton, MS
TDI
2009 JSW
So to sum up. a few of us chose the $$$ /FIX/warranty vs buyback or just keep.<snip>
for entertainment, here is the e-mail update I got on 10/10 from the vw customer care rep.
Thanks for your patience while I work with *** Volkswagen(dealer).
I just wanted to let you know that I am waiting on an update still within Volkswagen regarding the software update on your 20098(sic) Jetta TDI, and I will follow up with you by COB 10/17/17.




Jennifer.....Region Case Manager

So any update? It's a week past the 17th.
Please take your abusive language someplace else. you are not helping this discussion at all.
This is a technical hiccup.
it is not rape.
you trivialize sexual assault by such casual use of the term.
and just in case there is any further discussion, know that there is an option on this site's User CP to edit a per-user ignore list. I have added tadawson to my ignore list, since I have seen nothing he has posted of any interest.
it is, but it could use an option to include quoted content in the ignore.
(as seen above, hitting reply includes direct content in a post. so that in this case someone who had you on the ignore list would still see this, if I was not on his/her ignore list)
In addition to putting him on the ignore list flag the post and complain, maybe he will be banned.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
So any update? It's a week past the 17th.

....
I get weekly updates with the same text.

today she did not even update the date of the next promised e-mail.



On the other subject, I am satisfied with the ignore, if only people would quit poking him. I know the moderators are aware, and trust they will take what ever action they deem suitable.
 

Jack Frost

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Location
Rural Manitoba
TDI
2009 Clean Diesel
My 2009 TDI/DSG has been uber bricked for the last month.

The flashing procedure I believe is driven by software. As someone who once developed software, I find it hard to understand that why it hasn't been fixed by now. Either the software was written so poorly that it crashed without emitting any message that would allow them to determine the cause - Or - they are in the process of completely rewriting and testing the software. I hope the new instructions aren't equally buggy.:mad:

In any case, if this was software that drove a company's ordering or receivables processes, it would be out of business by now.
 

mpriolo

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2009 Jetta Sedan, DSG, CP3 HPFP
My 2009 TDI/DSG has been uber bricked for the last month.

The flashing procedure I believe is driven by software. As someone who once developed software, I find it hard to understand that why it hasn't been fixed by now. Either the software was written so poorly that it crashed without emitting any message that would allow them to determine the cause - Or - they are in the process of completely rewriting and testing the software. I hope the new instructions aren't equally buggy.:mad:

In any case, if this was software that drove a company's ordering or receivables processes, it would be out of business by now.
I don't think that the software itself is the issue. I agree that it should be straight forward to generate the updated code. VW knows what the solution is as opposed when they were developing the fix and probably had to iterate both the hardware and software until they found the solution.

I suspect that VWoA needs to take a number of 09 TDIs with DSGs through testing again to prove to the EPA that the result with the new DSG software still meets the reduced emission specs. If this wasn't Dieselgate and the EPA wasn't involved, I think the software update would have been released weeks ago.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The EPA would care about "calibration". This might be more a matter of a certain software revision in the transmission being incapable of communicating with the new revision in the engine, which evidently was not anticipated as being a problem.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
http://www.natef.org/NATEF/media/NATEFMedia/VW Files/DSG-SSP.pdf

the SSP for the DSG provides some light reading while we wait for the fix to the fix.

given past performance, I would really be surprised if we hear much detail on what the problem is.

it is clear that some update to the design happened in 2009 or so. and that the "fix" was developed on the post-update versions, not understanding that it would not work on the earlier designs.

(the software update does not complete)

we are all welcome to guess what the problem is.

could be something in the DSG controller firmware, or memory, or other detail, could be a sensor change within the mechatronics or in the main transmission. could be an interaction with other controllers on the car.

and to make this work, one of two ways could be followed:

1) update the software to achieve the desired result on the existing design (2008-9 production)

2) update the hardware so that the updated software works. (this would mean some mix of model year components, probably a mechatronics unit, some sensor update, or perhaps even a new Transmission.)


and whatever the technical fix is, it would have to be approved by VW management, court, and agency staff....

I have to see how many pairs of skis fit in the CC loaner I have....not thinking this will be solved in the next month.....
 

mpriolo

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2009 Jetta Sedan, DSG, CP3 HPFP
The EPA would care about "calibration". This might be more a matter of a certain software revision in the transmission being incapable of communicating with the new revision in the engine, which evidently was not anticipated as being a problem.
Brian,

I agree with you that this is the issue at hand. I am seeing 2 possible scenarios.

1) VW has updated the software to correct the issue and the EPA needs to insure full compatibility to the new emissions limits before they allow VW to release it.

2) VW can not get the DSG to communicate with the ECM and we are waiting on another solution.

If the updated software failed to solve the problem, they would have known this early on. It doesn't make sense to me that they would continue to rack up $1,000/month charges on loaners/rentals when they could have just decided early on to replace the mechatronics unit and ECM, load up the "working" software and be done with the issue.

I still favor a delay based on EPA needing time to agree to the new software. Just speculation on my part. Hopefully we get the full story from VW when this issue is resolved (though I have my doubts).

To put this in perspective, VW was supposed to have my TDI for 6.5 hours to implement the fix. So far they have had my car for 1,512 hours.:mad:

Regards,

Marty
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I know it doesn't apply but what is the lemon law requirement for New Hampshire? My memory tells me that it is 30 days in the shop for the same failure within the first year of ownership for most states. I wonder if you can use that to your advantage. Of course that means walking away from the car.
 

mpriolo

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2009 Jetta Sedan, DSG, CP3 HPFP
I know it doesn't apply but what is the lemon law requirement for New Hampshire? My memory tells me that it is 30 days in the shop for the same failure within the first year of ownership for most states. I wonder if you can use that to your advantage. Of course that means walking away from the car.
That is an interesting suggestion. I checked the lemon law for NH and it applies if there are 3 unsuccessful attempts to fix the car or if it has been at the dealership for more than 30 days (certainly qualify for this one).

The next part is interesting. The vehicle still needs to be under warranty. But my 9 year old TDI is out of warranty - or is it? I get an extended warranty from VW for the fix, but since the fix isn't completed, the warranty isn't effective yet. So in its current condition, it doesn't have a warranty.

Those of us with bricked TDIs are certainly in a unique position.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
From VW today:

I wanted to apologize for my error in the date that I listed for the next follow-up. I understand your frustrations and I greatly appreciate your patience while we are working on your case.

I apologize as there are a number of vehicles that letters were sent out to customers on advising that this recall was available. Our dealerships, as well as Volkswagen are finding that these specific vehicles need specific software which is currently unavailable. Volkswagen is still researching the software for the TDI AEM to be performed on your vehicle. At this time there is no date yet for when this will be available, however we are working diligently and we would like to get you updated weekly. I would like to follow up with you again by next Tuesday, October 31st.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Don't forget that if you opt for the fix, there is another lemon-law-like provision in there which allows you to change over to buyback (something not otherwise allowed) if specific criteria are met (i.e. they are unable to effect repairs). I have no idea if this would apply in this particular case.

Personally, I'd happily rack up the mileage on a car that I don't own and which someone else is paying for ...
 

740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
I have to see how many pairs of skis fit in the CC loaner I have....not thinking this will be solved in the next month.....

Remember CC is a fast back, use that sloping roof to its advantage!!! I bet you can get 10 pairs up there if you have enough ratchet straps.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
Remember CC is a fast back, use that sloping roof to its advantage!!! I bet you can get 10 pairs up there if you have enough ratchet straps.

They need to be inside (or in a box on a rack up on the roof.)

(and, oh yes, there is no roof rack on the CC)

I did get a call back from a lawyer. (ref a few posts back)

she is collecting data and questions to pass to the head lawyer for us to pass to the VW team.
 
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740GLE

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Location
NH
TDI
2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
They need to be inside (or in a box on a rack up on the roof.)

(and, oh yes, there is no roof rack on the CC)

I did get a call back from a lawyer. (ref a few posts back)

she is collecting data and questions to pass to the head lawyer for us to pass to the VW team.

ratchet straps don't car if there's no rack on the CC!!!! ;)

it won't look as pretty but I'm sure you could pull this off

 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
Thanks for the helpful suggestion, and that car would look sweet pulling into the lodge.

but alas, my wife is firm about not getting road crap on the bindings.
 

newbury

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Location
Fairfax, VA/Fulton, MS
TDI
2009 JSW
From VW today:

I wanted to apologize for my error in the date that I listed for the next follow-up. I understand your frustrations and I greatly appreciate your patience while we are working on your case.

I apologize as there are a number of vehicles that letters were sent out to customers on advising that this recall was available. Our dealerships, as well as Volkswagen are finding that these specific vehicles need specific software which is currently unavailable. Volkswagen is still researching the software for the TDI AEM to be performed on your vehicle. At this time there is no date yet for when this will be available, however we are working diligently and we would like to get you updated weekly. I would like to follow up with you again by next Tuesday, October 31st.
Well, it's Tuesday October 31st, 2017 (she didn't mean Tuesday October 31st, 2023 did she?) any update?
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
I got this from VW on Friday:
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your reply and again I do apologize for the time you have been without your vehicle. I am sorry to hear that this has been affecting your ability to take your trips. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With regards to your question to switch to a buyback option, you would need to speak with a member of our TDI Remediation Team. They will be in the best position to speak with further about this transition. They can be reached by calling 844-98-CLAIM (844-982-5246). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you have any other questions, please feel free to email us again.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Also got an initial answer from the lawyer on the change to buyback question. her supervising attorney thinks it is unlikely that such a change would be approved, but they will ask, since it has been over two months.

The longer this goes, the less I want the car back. this car has never sat so long since it was made.
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](I had called [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]844-98-CLAIM[/FONT] after the first month, and was told change to buyback after starting the fix was a no-go. period.)

(on the bright side, a bag with our longest skis fit fine in the CC with the back seat folded. not sure we can fit our usual complement of skis, boots, poles, helmets, luggage, coolers, computers......may have to go without the cooler.)
[/FONT]
 
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newbury

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Location
Fairfax, VA/Fulton, MS
TDI
2009 JSW
Meerschm - if you want to provide a better summary please do soon and I will delete this post.
But you now have a long important thread with dates scattered so I pulled these few quotes out for all those who don't read the full thread because it's so long (poor people).
Original post in thread - August 31, 2017
Update and summary:
2009 TDI DSG emissions fix has problems
Several of us with 2009 model year TDI cars with DSG (automated manual transmission) who chose the fix and dropped off the car at a local dealer have had no joy.
(note that some 2009s with the DSG have had no issues with the transmission taking the update)
The emissions fix parts are replaced and engine software updated, and as a final step, the DSG software update (which changes shift points and is required as part of the approved emissions fix) does not take. Dealers are not allowed to release the car in this condition, and drivers are left driving a loaner.
All our cars are at the dealer, with no feedback as to progress on a fix or any info from VW other than the dealer service person saying they have to wait for corporate VW to let them know.
If you want the fix for a 2009 model year car, and have a DSG, you should wait. (VW may have wised up and stopped scheduling these cars)
Manual transmission cars seem to be doing ok.
as a bonus, since they could not drive my car too far with out functioning transmission software, they parked it under a tree close to the service bay


This is a lot better than it looked two weeks ago when I stopped by.
wondering what the build date is for folks who have had problems with the DSG software update which is part of the fix, which is or has delayed completion of the emissions fix.
(build date is on a sticker at the bottom of the drivers door jamb visible with the door open)
Post joking about it may take 6 months:
I went back to pick up another loner (was on the road the past few weeks)
also updated first post here with a summary (let me know or post here, and I will update the first post)
the service rep I talked to said VW called them today to verify that they still have all the cars affected. she considered this a hopeful sign. (why, I do not know)
I joked that the 2016 CC they gave me as a loner would be my daily driver for the next six months.<snip>
Post dated 9-19-17 indicating he dropped it off mid August.
Rant:
ok, it has been over a month for a six hour fix.
<snip>
Post Nov 1st 2017, about 2.5 months after drop off :(
I got this from VW on Friday:
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your reply and again I do apologize for the time you have been without your vehicle. I am sorry to hear that this has been affecting your ability to take your trips. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With regards to your question to switch to a buyback option, you would need to speak with a member of our TDI Remediation Team. They will be in the best position to speak with further about this transition. They can be reached by calling 844-98-CLAIM (844-982-5246). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you have any other questions, please feel free to email us again.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Also got an initial answer from the lawyer on the change to buyback question. her supervising attorney thinks it is unlikely that such a change would be approved, but they will ask, since it has been over two months.
The longer this goes, the less I want the car back. this car has never sat so long since it was made.
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](I had called [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]844-98-CLAIM[/FONT] after the first month, and was told change to buyback after starting the fix was a no-go. period.)<snip>
[/FONT]
 
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meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
Thanks for the summary.

I will update the first post.

one last message just showed up from "customer care"

[FONT=&quot]I know we have been in contact for quite a while and I greatly appreciate your patience. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]At this point, the next step in this process is to have you work with our Remediation Team. While we still do not have a tentative date for repair, they will be contacting you once a repair is available. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rest assured, this is a top priority and I apologize for the delay. If you have any questions in the meantime, please contact 844-982-5246.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]sounds like they are tired of sending me no-content messages.
[/FONT]
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
What about contacting the lawyers that put this all together? Maybe even send it to the judge.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
I have done so.

am in contact with staff from [FONT=&quot]Lieff Cabraser Heimann & Bernstein, LLP[/FONT]

Anyone affected who wants individual contact from the legal team can contact me for contact info.

at this point, they are gathering info to document the status.

I will share here any substantive feedback they provide.
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
One more update. I got on the phone with the claims folks, and they said that this issue impacts cars with DSG, in various cars 2009, 2010, and some 2014 model years.

they also are elevating the request to change to buyback considering the time delay.
 
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