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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old July 15th, 2017, 16:45   #16
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Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
The problem with VE2CR is clearly not mechanical, but electronic. I'm 100% confident it can be overcome.

I agree,Its hardware related but still might have mechanical limitations also.I'm still afraid of needing to rely on a tuner and/or turning to Bosch Motorsports for ecu $$$$$ after trying to use an OE ecu.

I've now basically seen first hand the difference between a Bosch motorsports system and an OE ECU and tuner of choice.

The Black Smoke Racing guys seem to have a pretty strong running Mercedes presumably using an OE ECU ?

Here is an example of a diesel truck tuner that normally tunes both daily driven and competition trucks.He even uses the Bosch motorsports ECU and tunes it himself,

http://www.dragzine.com/features/car...l-dodge-truck/
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Old July 15th, 2017, 16:52   #17
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Kerma...Grow up.. You should be ashamed as a vender for your sarcastic insulting. Would love to meet you in person to see if you have just as big of a mouth as you do behind a keyboard.
Also been there and did a nearly 1k hp cummins in a Ford. one truck made Diesel power 3x and Diesel world 4 page spread.

Mods go ahead and do with that you want.. Kerma's post was completely uncalled for. Then again.. He seems to get away with it often as he's a paid vendor...

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Feel welcome to "explore" and report back to the forum.

Injectors aside, why not also use an HX60 turbo if you want. I heard they work great on the dodges. Why not a TDI? Some of those dodges are over 1000 hp how awesome would that be in a TDI. Just need to figure out how to overcome the herdles (pun intended) with some creative, out of the box thinking is all.
Come to think of it, why not just use some dodge pistons and rods. They are the same basic shape as tdi pistons, you know, round kind of cylinders of metal. If you take a close look, they even have the dish in the center for the fuel. How different could they be, REALLY. Not only that, the dodge rods are MUCH beefer and that's a good thing. I'll bet a really smart guy with skills could fit them. I'll bet nobody's ever thought of that either!
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Old July 15th, 2017, 17:01   #18
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I agree,Its hardware related but still might have mechanical limitations also.I'm still afraid of needing to rely on a tuner and/or turning to Bosch Motorsports for ecu $$$$$ after trying to use an OE ecu.

I've now basically seen first hand the difference between a Bosch motorsports system and an OE ECU and tuner of choice.

The Black Smoke Racing guys seem to have a pretty strong running Mercedes presumably using an OE ECU ?

Here is an example of a diesel truck tuner that normally tunes both daily driven and competition trucks.He even uses the Bosch motorsports ECU and tunes it himself,

http://www.dragzine.com/features/car...l-dodge-truck/
Well, it is another thread, but if you want to look in this more seriously, Skynam is an excellent standalone ECU that costs much less than Bosch Motorsports and other aftermarket solutions, plus they already have TDI base maps as a starting point for calibrations.
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Old July 15th, 2017, 18:34   #19
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Kerma...Grow up.. You should be ashamed as a vender for your sarcastic insulting. Would love to meet you in person to see if you have just as big of a mouth as you do behind a keyboard.
Also been there and did a nearly 1k hp cummins in a Ford. one truck made Diesel power 3x and Diesel world 4 page spread.
Mods go ahead and do with that you want.. Kerma's post was completely uncalled for. Then again.. He seems to get away with it often as he's a paid vendor...

No offense intended, but if technical arguments in a different thread don't seem to have any sway, maybe hyperbole gets the point across. Looks like maybe it did.

Saying something like the offset bowl and injector angles being wrong is just mere doubting instead of problem solving, and implying that it's probably not really relevant after all, and the injectors look pretty similar after all so why won't they work, is almost as ridiculous as saying that the pistons are metal with pretty much the same shape, so why won't they work too. Or why not just use the biggest turbo that will (or won't) fit under the hood, because it works great elsewhere.

Or maybe there's more to it than that?

There are lots of different nozzles that will physically fit on the VW nozzle holders and even look similar to the naked eye or casual inspection. Some of them may even come as standard equipment on an engine made by Cummins. But that's the engine and piston they were designed for.

Does that mean that you "could" use them? I guess so. You "can" also "use" an hx60 on a 2 liter tdi I suppose. Or use a 6bt piston in a tdi..( If it was melted down and recast maybe.) Where there's a will, there's a way. You just have to ask "why"

Maybe that's a matter of opinion. Maybe it depends at least partly on what you are trying to do. And what specific parts we are talking about in particular. Just to be able to say you "did it"? Just to be able to say "I installed a "cummins" nozzle in a TDI when everyone said it could not be done"? Makes me wonder, is there actually something inherently more desirable about a bosch nozzle that was designed for a dodge engine over a bosch nozzle that was designed for a VW engine? Or modified parts that are based on them?

I know that in the truck world they will take sac-hole DLLA nozzles and use them in injectors and engines that originally had VCO-type DSLA nozzles. AFAIK there is no common rail DLLA but that is where they are being used. The nozzle shank is too big so they get turned down on a lathe till they will physically fit into the engine among other mods. The spray spread is slightly wrong but they flow more and have a different cylinder pressure ramp that is supposedly better for racing. But the smoke is more and they run hotter than if the spray was the correct pattern, and there are other tradeoffs. But hey, 2500 hp and 8 seconds, what do you want. But then again, if the spray angle was correct for the piston then maybe it would be 3000 hp.


Do we want something that is actually an upgrade that works better or best for that application, that will actually get you where you want to go? Of course "better or best" is a matter of opinion as well. And everyone has an opinion.

And FWIW, no paid vendors here. Just guys who want to talk about their cars.
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Old July 15th, 2017, 18:38   #20
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Andy, I commend your and the OP's ingenuity to try something outside the box. You guys will always want to find an outside-the-box solution and I tip my hat to you. But it would be instructive to step back and ask yourself what problem you're trying to solve, if there are multiple current solutions that follow around the OEM's extensive engineering work. There are some who will always want to "stick-it-to-man", so to speak, whether it be the factory engineers or a leading/incumbent vendor. Fine - you know the risks, you are your own warranty.
Pretty sure we've been over this before, but I think it bears repeating. I think the answer to the problem we are trying to solve is almost always money. Sure you can buy everything from a vendor, but I think I speak for the majority of us tinkerers that we are usually driven by a need for cheap decent stuff, usually on a Sunday...

I seriously doubt any vendor is going to warranty your drag car parts or come to your rescue on a Sunday morning at the track. So we're pretty much on our own anyway. Which is why we should fully understand the stuff we're using.

That Skynam ECU is nice, but $5300CDN. Yikes... I don't drive anything worth that much. Think any of my future common rail projects are going to have operate within the confines of the factory ECU...

And Kerma, I feel you may have a shred of credibility and dignity left. You sure you want to spend it all here?
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Old July 15th, 2017, 19:50   #21
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Pretty sure we've been over this before, but I think it bears repeating. I think the answer to the problem we are trying to solve is almost always money. Sure you can buy everything from a vendor, but I think I speak for the majority of us tinkerers that we are usually driven by a need for cheap decent stuff, usually on a Sunday...

I seriously doubt any vendor is going to warranty your drag car parts or come to your rescue on a Sunday morning at the track. So we're pretty much on our own anyway. Which is why we should fully understand the stuff we're using.

That Skynam ECU is nice, but $5300CDN. Yikes... I don't drive anything worth that much. Think any of my future common rail projects are going to have operate within the confines of the factory ECU...

And Kerma, I feel you may have a shred of credibility and dignity left. You sure you want to spend it all here?
Well, by acknowledging that there exist Chinese options (and I'll add eBay also), the OP at least is no mere penny pincher, especially since he claims to having a 1000 HP Cummins build with multiple magazine ink under his belt...

And I'm sure you know that my quip about warranty was not meant to be taken literally, but maybe better stated would be that you're responsible for whatever consequences of your decisions. Trying different nozzle specs may prove to be a false economy if you start to melt pistons in the names of buying on the cheap and tinkering.

Any aftermarket Diesel standalone ECU option is going to be expensive any way you slice it, but I have proposed an OEM solution in concept only if not in practice that I'm confident will work - it's a matter of finding an ECU tuning partner who's willing to make it happen.

This thread is anyway coming near the end of its useful life as andy2 and Mr. Chill have said that they've tried Cummins nozzles in TDIs. Summary: Do they work? - yes. Do they work well? Depends.
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Old July 15th, 2017, 20:01   #22
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Old July 15th, 2017, 20:06   #23
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LOL I just use a larger spark plug gap driven by a bigger flux capacitor and then add bigger piston return springs...

The point of the thread was to look for performance options that would contain a high degree of consistency and quality control along the lines of oem. I had an interesting conversation with another well known vendor here about injectors and regarding the quality of the market offerings... "A TDI engine builder" not an internet parts rebrander/reseller.

Bosio which seems to be the most popular and the Hflox were discussed. The thread referenced showed actual photos and testing done by someone who also is well known in diesel showed actual data to the questionability of the quality of the Bosios. The advantage of the Bosio over the others seems to be availability, however that was mentioned to be an issue. The others named...are rarely mentioned with the exception of the HFlox and those guys are mostly from across the pond where they are readily available. The early Cummins has a lot of similarities, offset bowel, injector is angled, nozzle drilling ... and they are easily obtainable oem quality units stateside. As for DLC coating...that's an easy fix if need be. So the question became has anyone done it yet... NOT has anyone put 12v 6BT rods and pistons in a TDI. Another consideration is market share and for how much longer will we be able to get nozzles?

Thanks Andy and Church for sharing your experience with using them. Did you by chance try the marine non emission versions?

Machining is not a problem should I decide to try them. As for the requirement a de-lipped piston, wouldn't injection timing with larger volume and less duration considerations solve that?
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Old July 16th, 2017, 13:30   #24
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The sizes used came from my local bosch dealer. Its possible that some were marine...as I gave him a window of what I was looking for and out of more than 30 options...we got down to six. The 8 holes I tried were not cummins....but man the fuel. Too bad a ve pump cannot deliver the volume they require. They may be good for racing...although nowadays, there are so many options, that it really isnt necessary.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 13:59   #25
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As for the requirement a de-lipped piston, wouldn't injection timing with larger volume and less duration considerations solve that?
I think the trouble with the bowl lip is that the slightly off axis spray pattern impinges directly on the thin bowl lip, creating a hot spot and a subsequent crack. Bigger nozzles (shorter duration) won't really help with that.

I'm nuts and well equipped, so I would probably put the head in the mill and bore and sleeve the injector holes to alter the injector installation angle to match that of the cummins, but its too late for me, I've moved on to PD engines.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 19:05   #26
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I'm curious as to how the angle of the Cummins injector bodies sitting in a Cummins head compares to that of the TDi injector bodies in a VW head.

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Old July 16th, 2017, 19:30   #27
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I'm trying to find that info.
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Old July 16th, 2017, 22:16   #28
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I'm curious as to how the angle of the Cummins injector bodies sitting in a Cummins head compares to that of the TDi injector bodies in a VW head.

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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...65#post4693665
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Old July 16th, 2017, 22:21   #29
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Too bad a ve pump cannot deliver the volume they require.
I've wondered lately about replacing the transfer pump with something belt driven, like a power steering pump.

The timing advance is entirely independent of case pressure (so long as there is case pressure above inlet pressure) unlike on mechanically governed pumps where the pressure curve sets the timing curve. Figure you could run 500-1000 PSI of case pressure and get much better element filling. Pressure'd likely stiffen the pump body somewhat as well if it didn't crack it.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 07:13   #30
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I've wondered lately about replacing the transfer pump with something belt driven, like a power steering pump.

The timing advance is entirely independent of case pressure (so long as there is case pressure above inlet pressure) unlike on mechanically governed pumps where the pressure curve sets the timing curve. Figure you could run 500-1000 PSI of case pressure and get much better element filling. Pressure'd likely stiffen the pump body somewhat as well if it didn't crack it.
Thanks for the link.

The issue with running an inlet pressure higher than 13 or so psi is that, at least in Cummins VE pumps, it will blow out the input shaft seal.
Maybe some machine work could allow for a retaining ring or plate of some sort?

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