Group III base synthetics

Are there any ways they may actually be better than Group IV/V oils ?

Only in price.

I'm not even sure that the price advantage is there. Castrol Syntec is the highest priced synthetic oil at my local wal-mart,, surpassing Mobil-1 by nearly $.50 per quart. They use the term "synthetic" very loosely and charge a premium which people apparently are willing to pay.

Shell Rotella T 5w-40 is Group 3 and very inexpensive at less than $13 a gallon at Wal-Mart.

Some members here have found Group 3 Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme 5w-40 at NAPA for less than $12 a gallon.

BTW, Mobil-1 is a gasser oil. Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 is a diesel oil.

Vague on my memory of it, but I thought GeWilli posted that under microscope analysis, group 3 oils held soot in more even suspension that PAO based group 4 oils which clumped more. Hopefully he'll chime in.

Mobil 1 0w-40 - rated ACEA B3/B4-02
Mobil 1 15w-50 - rated ACEA B3/B4-02

The Europeans say Mobil 1 is a diesel oil.

Originally posted by AutoDiesel:
Mobil 1 0w-40 - rated ACEA B3/B4-02
Mobil 1 15w-50 - rated ACEA B3/B4-02

The Europeans say Mobil 1 is a diesel oil.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not a European and I'm not in Europe. What's the API rating? I'll answer that for you.

Mobil 1 with SuperSyn fully synthetic, detergent-dispersant oils are designed for passenger car and light truck gasoline or diesel engines requiring API Service SL, SJ or CF. Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30, and 10W-30 also meet ILSAC GF-3 (Starburst Certification Mark).

API CF oil. Only a CF oil. Know what the API says about a CF oil?

"Introduced in 1994. For off-road, indirect-injected and other diesel diesel engines including those using fuel with over 0.5% weight sulphur. Can be used in place of CD oils."

Defintely not an oil that'll be used in my diesels. Only CI-4 oils will be used in my diesels.

"API Service Category CI-4 describes oils for use in high-speed, four-stroke cycle diesel engines designed to meet 2004 exhaust emission standards implemented in 2002. These oils are intended for use in all applications with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight.

These oils are specifically formulated to sustain engine durability where Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) is used and the impact of these oils on other supplemental exhaust emission devices has not been determined. Optimum protection is provided against corrosive and soot-related wear tendencies, piston deposits, degradation of low- and high-temperature viscometric properties due to soot accumulation, oxidative thickening, loss of oil consumption control, foaming, degradation of seal materials, and viscosity loss due to shear.

API CI-4 oils are superior in performance to those meeting API CH-4, CG-4 and CF-4 and may be used in engines calling for those API Service Categories.

The first license date for API CI-4 will be September 5, 2002."

All Hail the API Gods!!!!

Where do think TDi engines are made anyway?
Europe! (ie. that means European!)

And what does ACEA B4 mean?

" B4 - Stable, stay-in-grade oils intended for use in car and light vans having direct injection diesel engines but also suitable for applications described under B3." (Italics and bold mine.)

"Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-40:
Flows at -54°C (-65°F).
Meets ACEA A3/B3/B4-02 and the performance specifications of European automakers, including Mercedes-Benz, Porsche and BMW.
Approved against both MB 229.3 and MB 229.5 for use all Mercedes-Benz passenger vehicles.
Specified on the Porsche Approval List 2002 and is factory fill for all Porsche vehicles.
Approved against BMW Longlife 01.
Approved against Volkswagen/Audi 502.00/505.00/503.01.
Approved against GM (Saab/Opel) GM-LL-A-025 (gasoline) and GM-LL-B-025 (diesel)."

"Mobil Delvac 1 meets the requirements of:
API Service CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF, SL, SJ
ACEA E5, E4, E3
Mack EO-N Premium Plus, Mack EO-M Plus, Mack EO-M
Cummins CES 20078, 20077, 20076, 20075, 20072, 20071
Detroit Diesel 7SE270 (4-stroke cycle)
Mercedes Benz Sheet 228.5 (in progress)
Volvo VDS-3
Caterpillar deposit performance
JASO DH-1
Global DHD-1
3.6% distillation at 700°F"

What?! Delvac only flows down to -45C/-49F??
Mobil1 0W-40 is good down to -54C/-65F!!

I don't see anywhere here that says Delvac has been tested for our TDi's. Looks like quite a bit of testing for heavy duty truck engines!

Delvac is a very good oil. Amsoil is a very good oil. Just don't try to say Mobil1 doesn't rate for diesels, because is does!!
API is always behind the curve when it comes to rating oils. If they were on the ball they would have seperate ratings for cars and heavy trucks also.
The API tests you list are directed at heavy truck engines .
The day they start testing and rating for light-duty diesels is the day I'll pay heed to their recommendations.
How do you think all of those Europeans get by with their oils that are mainly CF rated?
Are you trying to say they don't know what they are talking about?
Get your head out of the sand and get off you "Amsoil/API" only crap. It gets real old.

You may not be a European but you are driving a European car!

Mobil 1 does fine till about 5000 miles(do a search on it, many have tried). Then it degrades quickly. It has a great basestock, but does not have the additives to keep soot in suspension, and I am sure others can elaborate more on what else it can't do. If you are running 5000 mile oil changes, it will probably do fine, but for the same cost Delvac (or many other diesel oils) will hold out 10,000 or more.

Oh FYI, Mobil 1 in Europe is different than in the US. It is designed for desiels and gassers. In the US it is designed for only gassers.

[ December 16, 2002, 00:42: Message edited by: eidie2 ]

Originally posted by AutoDiesel:
Where do think TDi engines are made anyway?
Europe! (ie. that means European!)

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And where is my TDI driven? America. What kind of fuel does my TDI ingest? American fuel. I'll stick to the API specs thank you.

And it doesn't make any sence how an oil that is so poor on the API scale can be so high on the ACEA scale. Something smells fishy.

I'd prefer to use an API CI-4/ACEA B3 oil, like Amsoil. For CI-4 specs, look above. Here's the B3 specs:

Stable, stay-in grade oil intended for use in high-performance car and light van diesel engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of low viscosity oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer."

back to subject... unless your in the artic..

then a test done on fleets with pao based oils and group III based oils..

with EXACXTLY the same additives...

show that pao base oils preform at about 2% better in most test.. and even in others... pao based oils have trouble keeping soot in suspention for long oil intervals but have more additives to help..

group III oils surpassed the 35,000 mile oil change test, paos have problems...

so... if your in the artic.. use pao..

if your going 35,000 miles between changes, use delo 400... or cummins blue

pao based oils can give up to 2% better mpg.

group III base oils handle HEAVY DUTY situations better.

if your not keeping your car for 700,000 miles or more,, is cheaper and more practicle to run a group III base oil..

there.. you have it.. no body wins... some folks just have to spend more and buy the best toilet paper.. others dont plan on reusing toilet paper..

vw bodys dont hold up well past 200,000 miles

pick the one that makes most sense for your intentions, driving habits, and climate..

if you drive 60,000 miles a year or more,, I would be running pao... the savings on mpg would pay for it... if you dont drive 20,000 miles a year, and need to change oil early ,, I would be looking at group III oils.. i know its kind of backwards, but most folk trade off before 10 years...

Originally posted by eidie2:
Mobil 1 does fine till about 5000 miles(do a search on it, many have tried).
Oh FYI, Mobil 1 in Europe is different than in the US. It is designed for desiels and gassers. In the US it is designed for only gassers.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They were using 0W-30, not the 0W-40 European Car Formula. This one is rated for diesels.
(With European specs. that is. )
-------------------------------------------------
Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-40:
Flows at -54°C (-65°F).
Meets ACEA A3/B3/B4-02 and the performance specifications of European automakers, including Mercedes-Benz, Porsche and BMW.
Approved against both MB 229.3 and MB 229.5 for use all Mercedes-Benz passenger vehicles.
Specified on the Porsche Approval List 2002 and is factory fill for all Porsche vehicles.
Approved against BMW Longlife 01.
Approved against Volkswagen/Audi 502.00/505.00/503.01.
Approved against GM (Saab/Opel) GM-LL-A-025 (gasoline) and GM-LL-B-025 (diesel
--------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by SoTxBill:
back to subject... unless your in the artic..

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------
Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 15W-50
Flows at -45°C (-49°F), pumps at temperatures as low as many conventional SAE 5W-30 oils.
--------------------------------------------------

So you like 15W-50, eh?
Good to -49F and it's ACEA B3/B4-02 approved!
B4 = TDi

Even up here in the NW it would work.
$4.00/qt. at the local Target store.

Originally posted by SoTxBill:
vw bodys dont hold up well past 200,000 miles

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I beg to differ. My 1991 Jetta 1.6D has 233,750 miles on the clock and the body is in PERFECT shape, as well as the paint. The only thing I need to repair is some of the rubber mouldings around the doors and windows. But this is expected after 11 years of Texas weather.