What to do with 2012 model with 191k miles

Tragick · Jul 7, 2016

I, like everyone else here, have been trying to figure out what to do with my diesel 2012 Passat TDI SE. It currently has 191k miles. If I turn in the car in December 2016, I should have around 220k miles on it. I choose December for several reasons, the primary reason being that I may be able to get a better deal on a 2016 sitting in the lot with the 2017 models laying around. I don't believe it likely that VW will be able to sell diesels again anytime soon. I drive between 40k and 40k miles a year. I have a heavy foot so I average 39 MPG. Don't get me wrong, I love my car and hate giving it up, but by my calculations I should be receiving around $10,380 from VW. The car needs around $1200 in front end work sooner rather than later, but I should be able to ride it out until December, which I view as as saving an additional $1200.

So my quandary is this. Do I purchase a "low mileage" diesel say a 2013 with 30k miles on for $24,000 (currently on ebay) and pray I don't get one with any issues and I assume VW with fix whatever has to be done with the emissions OR do I purchase a new gas Passat. I've looked at BMW diesels and they are simply too pricey for me (I would need a 500 series as I don't fit well in the 300 series as I'm 6'3"). That leaves the option of buying a gas passat. In another thread someone indicated they seemed to have gotten 30 MPG on their new gas passat. Doing simple math, if I drive 42k miles at 39 MPG in a diesel vs 42k miles at 30MPG in a gas passat, I still save $750/year in fuel/gas by driving a diesel. Doing more simple math, a diesel engine is roughly $1,000 more than a gas engine so to the first year of ownership is essentially a wash, so I would be saving $750/year for the 2nd year of ownership onward. I believe that maintenance on the diesel is typically lower than a gas car, but I'm not putting any numbers on it at the moment.

With the amount of driving I do and the miles I have piled up logically it makes sense to turn the diesel into VW and take the money and apply it to a new vehicle. My first two VW diesels (both Jettas) had 375k and 425k miles respectively, so I know they last a long time.

When I bought my current car was to upgrade to an Audi TDI when this one died. I could also purchase a used Audi A6 in theory.

Comments appreciated!
Ed

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 7, 2016

I've been looking at used Passats on Autotrader and Cars.com. There are ones with under 50K on them in the low to mid-teens. At that price they're bargains, I think.

yehaman · Jul 7, 2016

Tragick said:
I, like everyone else here, have been trying to figure out what to do with my diesel 2012 Passat TDI SE. It currently has 191k miles. If I turn in the car in December 2016, I should have around 220k miles on it. I choose December for several reasons, the primary reason being that I may be able to get a better deal on a 2016 sitting in the lot with the 2017 models laying around. I don't believe it likely that VW will be able to sell diesels again anytime soon. I drive between 40k and 40k miles a year. I have a heavy foot so I average 39 MPG. Don't get me wrong, I love my car and hate giving it up, but by my calculations I should be receiving around $10,380 from VW. The car needs around $1200 in front end work sooner rather than later, but I should be able to ride it out until December, which I view as as saving an additional $1200.
So my quandary is this. Do I purchase a "low mileage" diesel say a 2013 with 30k miles on for $24,000 (currently on ebay) and pray I don't get one with any issues and I assume VW with fix whatever has to be done with the emissions OR do I purchase a new gas Passat. I've looked at BMW diesels and they are simply too pricey for me (I would need a 500 series as I don't fit well in the 300 series as I'm 6'3"). That leaves the option of buying a gas passat. In another thread someone indicated they seemed to have gotten 30 MPG on their new gas passat. Doing simple math, if I drive 42k miles at 39 MPG in a diesel vs 42k miles at 30MPG in a gas passat, I still save $750/year in fuel/gas by driving a diesel. Doing more simple math, a diesel engine is roughly $1,000 more than a gas engine so to the first year of ownership is essentially a wash, so I would be saving $750/year for the 2nd year of ownership onward. I believe that maintenance on the diesel is typically lower than a gas car, but I'm not putting any numbers on it at the moment.
With the amount of driving I do and the miles I have piled up logically it makes sense to turn the diesel into VW and take the money and apply it to a new vehicle. My first two VW diesels (both Jettas) had 375k and 425k miles respectively, so I know they last a long time.
When I bought my current car was to upgrade to an Audi TDI when this one died. I could also purchase a used Audi A6 in theory.
Comments appreciated!
Ed

If you have a "heavy foot", I wouldn't assume you will average 30 mpg with a gas version....

sammyg · Jul 7, 2016

I KBB'd mine the other day and it was an astonishing $13k private sale for a 2013 se w/ nav and sun roof w/53,000 miles.

I say put your current one on ice and get a "new" TDI one with low miles.

251 · Jul 8, 2016

Another thing to consider is that a gasser version requires more frequent oil changes. Think it is every 7K compared to the TDI's 10K oil change interval. If you put on 40K a year and have someone else do the oil changes for you the TDI comes out ahead here IMO.

r11 · Jul 8, 2016

Consider keeping it.

Your engine can easily do 500K miles. You will get $5K and 48K /4Y wty extension at the time of the fix. Probably new DPF too. The $5K will pay for the front end job you mentioned and new TB/WP you will need soon.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 8, 2016

r11 said:
Your engine can easily do 500K miles.

Have any CR engines done this yet?

251 · Jul 8, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Have any CR engines done this yet?

Per this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=409845 there are a number of CR's with high mileage on them.

I see 394K, 450K, 348K, 300K, 400K mentioned in above thread but the majority are much less. I concur that no CR's have been reported yet that have reached 500K which is what you specifically asked about. That 450K example sounds like the closest and that 500K is achievable though based on that...

compu_85 · Jul 8, 2016

It will be interesting to see how many miles we can get out of these Passat motors. I still wonder where all the aluminum in the oil analysis comes from.

-J

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 8, 2016

Not many diesels make it to 500K. Even most older TDIs have some kind of failure that stops them short of that mileage. Sure, some get there, but counting on an engine to go that far is probably not a good bet.

nord · Jul 8, 2016

I believe there's no good answer here. Planning on 500k miles out of a car is a bit risky considering what any vehicle faces on a daily basis. I'd look at this from a bit different perspective...

From a totally practical standpoint I'd figure out the true cost of the car over the miles driven. Given that VW will buy the car back, there's a good chance that the numbers will be very favorable to shed yourself of the vehicle. After all, at 200k miles any vehicle is going to need some degree of maintenance and there's that expense to consider.

Then there's pride or perhaps ego. Nothing wrong with either as long as kept in check. The car in question will certainly make 500k miles as long as the body remains in good shape. I say this because there isn't anything that can't be replaced. This by no measure should be considered economical, but it is possible.

Bottom line here is that cars have a certain expected lifespan over which time we generally consider repairs a part and parcel of ownership. This we expect and accept. Once in awhile we come across a vehicle that exceeds expectations. Maybe we like the vehicle and decide to roll the dice and extend its use. This I also understand, but it carries a degree of risk. Sometimes we win and other times not so much.

My advice? Simply crunch the numbers. How much has the car cost per mile and does it really owe you anything? Is the car worth dumping money into or is it time to move on? Given the miles and the buyback seemingly on the horizon, I tend to think there really isn't a question. Logic will dictate replacement. That is unless you absolutely love the vehicle and refuse to let it go at any price. And if you do, then logic won't come into play.

Tragick · Jul 8, 2016

<<My advice? Simply crunch the numbers. How much has the car cost per mile and does it really owe you anything? Is the car worth dumping money into or is it time to move on? Given the miles and the buyback seemingly on the horizon, I tend to think there really isn't a question. Logic will dictate replacement. That is unless you absolutely love the vehicle and refuse to let it go at any price. And if you do, then logic won't come into play.>>

As much as I love my car and love VW Diesels I agree wholeheartedly with this. Getting back around $10k, knowing I need $1200 repairs sooner rather than later and knowing I'll have to change the DSG/timing belt sometime in a little over a year is at least $2500, factor in new tires, etc and I can easily need to put $3,000 into in the next year. I've been very fortunate and have only needed to do standard maintenance things and no real repairs. I could run the car into the ground, keep the $5k "bonus" from VW and use that to maintain the car, but being a realist if I get new wheels using the VW money, and I'm sure VW will offer some kind of prior owner customer discount, I'm likely to get a new one, just a matter of whether or not I can get a diesel or not.

sierra3 · Jul 9, 2016

sammyg said:
I KBB'd mine the other day and it was an astonishing $13k private sale for a 2013 se w/ nav and sun roof w/53,000 miles.

I say put your current one on ice and get a "new" TDI one with low miles.

The above is the best answer with the information you have given. If you can afford it, get a low to mid-mileage TDI that you will be able to drive for the next two years without depreciation and still sell it back to VW (if you choose to...and you get 50%+ of the restitution amount. Stop driving your current car, and get it sold back as soon as VW allows.

South Coast Guy · Jul 9, 2016

If I was driving that much, my primary concerns would be: 1. Comfort. 2. Safety. 3. Cost of operation.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 9, 2016

And downtime. As cars age they need work more often. Even if it's cost-effective, taking a car out of service that you need for work can be a big pain.

vr6chris · Jul 9, 2016

251 said:
Another thing to consider is that a gasser version requires more frequent oil changes. Think it is every 7K compared to the TDI's 10K oil change interval. If you put on 40K a year and have someone else do the oil changes for you the TDI comes out ahead here IMO.

The oil change interval is the same. Also, if you are DIY-ing it, 502.00 oil can be found cheaply (I recently paid $10.88 each after rebate for a couple of 5qt jugs of Mobil 1).

I think it has been established that TDIs cost a bit more to maintain than gas engines. For a rough idea of the expenses, VW charges $719 for 50k of prepaid maintenance on '14/'15 TDIs and $569 for gas engine cars. For '16 it is $689 vs. $439. IMO, though, it is not enough of a difference to be a major factor in the purchasing decision.

Rico567 · Jul 10, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
And downtime. As cars age they need work more often. Even if it's cost-effective, taking a car out of service that you need for work can be a big pain.

This is something one rarely sees mentioned as a consideration in operating a high-mileage car, particularly when it's used as a daily driver. Much of our automotive history revolves around well-used cars, SAABs for the most part. While I don't view their maintenance / repair history with us as excessive, when operating cars over, say, 150K miles, the vehicle is going to be in the shop once or twice a year. And I've always DIY'd my own routine stuff, like oil changes and filters.
And counting probably 14 vehicles, none were ever sold / traded based on powertrain issues. When a car gets to a certain point (our well-used SAAB 9-5 is at 185K now), things just start to stack up.....

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 10, 2016

I've solved this problem by owning more than one. I mostly use the Passat as a back-up car for me and my sons when one or another is down for major repairs. I'm getting a '99.5 Golf back on the road soon that has 245K on it, so it' won't be exactly repair free, even when all its catch up maintenance is complete.

Without spares I don't think I'd tolerate owning cars this old, even though my wagon has been incredibly reliable for 332K.

Mark SF · Jul 11, 2016

sammyg said:
I KBB'd mine the other day and it was an astonishing $13k private sale for a 2013 se w/ nav and sun roof w/53,000 miles.

I say put your current one on ice and get a "new" TDI one with low miles.

KBB is worthless. Edmunds TMV is a lot better. KBB only considers asking price, while TMV uses the actual selling price.

j2112morris · Jul 14, 2016

I was recently in a similar position with my Jetta ('13 w/93k). The buyback would cover my note and leave a little left over. I just starting looking around and found a '15 Passat TDI SEL with 25K and picked it up for $24,500. For me it was just a matter seeking and waiting for the right deal, plus I might be eligible for part of the settlement with it, also. I really like my TDI and I anticipate the fix for one with the DEF will only be a flash. I'll just call on Malone's to remedy that and keep my MPG/power. Everyone must make their own call but that was mine.

BigWorm · Jul 14, 2016

If you lived in toronto I'd give you the number to "the russians" that roll the kilometers and engine run time back...

mtbsteve · Jul 15, 2016

251 said:
Another thing to consider is that a gasser version requires more frequent oil changes. Think it is every 7K compared to the TDI's 10K oil change interval. If you put on 40K a year and have someone else do the oil changes for you the TDI comes out ahead here IMO.

I looked up the interval for oil changes on a 2015 Passat TSI and it is showing 10k oil changes. The other factor, as long as we are talking DSG/automatic cars is trans fluid changes. DSG in the TDI at 40k, regular auto at 50k in the TSI.
The above info comes from the maintenance schedule. My guess (only based on my past experience with "traditional" domestic mfgs) would be that the non-TDI oil changes might be a few $ less and the trans flush might be a larger savings. Even then, not going to be a huge difference but maybe $200+ per year if this was serviced by the dealer.
The larger difference occurred when buying new because I think the OP said only a $1k difference between gas vs diesel but from what I remember it was anywhere from $2k+ - $3k difference depending on model and comparable equipment. The OP is well beyond "payback".
Given the miles the OP is putting on, the TDI is the answer but for the much large group who keep a car for less time and drive less miles per year it isn't as clear.
The other factor is fuel price. 87 octane (or regular unleaded gas "RUG") and diesel are the same price (and for most of the US, that isn't true, diesel has been higher approx. 95% of the time I have owned my diesel for almost 5 years - so these numbers are slightly inflated) at $2.29 per gallon, a RUG car that gets 30 mpgs overall vs 40 mpgs overall in the diesel will spend $343.50 more per year for fuel. Step up to $3.29/gallon or $4.29/gallon and the RUG car is now burning $493.50 and $643.50 of fuel per year more than the diesel, respectively.
Assumptions being used in the above example are driving a more "normal" 18k miles per year, averaging 30mpg with RUG car and 40mpg with diesel car.
To OP:
There are 2013 TDI SE and SELs for sale with 25k to 40k miles for $15k - $18k range.
Pocket the $10k from VW (plus the $1,200 work and maybe some other upcoming work on your higher mileage beast), add a few thousand $ of your own and start the process over with low mileage car and pray that the "fix" doesn't take away what you love about this car.

r11 · Jul 15, 2016

Fix for '15 Passat wont be just an ECU flash. It is spelled out on the 220+ page pdf, I posted it under " fix for Gen3" in the dieselgate sub-forum

Yankinwaoz · Jul 15, 2016

I don't think that VW will be able to fix to Passats to CARB specs. And you live in a CARB state. I think that you will end up having to surrender your Passat.

I think you should take advantage of the time before you have to surrender it and just continue to drive the hell out of it. I think you have until mid 2018. That gives you another 18 months to milk what you already have.

Lets say they do manage to create a fix. Then defer until the last minute, let them fix it, then see how long it lasts.

shelbydog25 · Jul 15, 2016

r11 said:
Consider keeping it.

Your engine can easily do 500K miles. You will get $5K and 48K /4Y wty extension at the time of the fix. Probably new DPF too. The $5K will pay for the front end job you mentioned and new TB/WP you will need soon.

first I've heard of 48k/4y wty. what components will it cover? power train? Emmissions only?

j2112morris · Jul 17, 2016

r11 said:
Fix for '15 Passat wont be just an ECU flash. It is spelled out on the 220+ page pdf, I posted it under " fix for Gen3" in the dieselgate sub-forum

Well, that is unfortunate. Thank you for the information.

sunshine x · Aug 24, 2016

Hope I am not posting double as my complete post did not post correctly:

How about a Certified (CPO) Mercedes?? I understand some of us do not want to be seen in any MB/BMW etc but they now offer a pretty cool deal for the people who put a lot a miles on their cars.

MB CPO= 1 year on top of the MFG warranty (48m / 50kmiles) with unlimited miles. They offer 1 or 2 years on top of that for extra cost but ALSO unlimited miles.

For myself I bought a '14 ML350 (E250 would be much more efficient) for $35K +++ and will have pretty much bumper - bumper warranty till 08 '21 or about 5 years. This is the only way I could afford a MB. I only have to do maintenance and not anxious what expensive part might brake next.

740GLE · Aug 25, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Not many diesels make it to 500K. Even most older TDIs have some kind of failure that stops them short of that mileage. Sure, some get there, but counting on an engine to go that far is probably not a good bet.

diesels are simple, easy to fix, last for millions of miles and you never have to replace spark plugs

What to do with 2012 model with 191k miles

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