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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old August 24th, 2010, 16:07   #46
TDIMeister
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By virtue of the CO values it's clear that Vehicle 2 is the gasser and hence the Escalade. As a constructive suggestion, it would help the reader to place the raw non-WTW numbers beside those that are, just so that we can view data unblemished from the variation between gas/Diesel fuel and the GREET model.
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Old August 24th, 2010, 16:34   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
By virtue of the CO values it's clear that Vehicle 2 is the gasser and hence the Escalade. As a constructive suggestion, it would help the reader to place the raw non-WTW numbers beside those that are, just so that we can view data unblemished from the variation between gas/Diesel fuel and the GREET model.
You're absolutely correct!

And as suggested...


WTP emissions per GREET (2006 Jetta TDI @ 34 mpg combined)

Total VOC = 0.029 g/mi
Total CO = 0.053 g/mi
Total NOx = 0.169 g/mi
Total PM10 = 0.031 g/mi
Total SOx = 0.086 g/mi


WTP emissions per GREET (2007 Escalade @ 15 mpg combined)

Total VOC = 0.209 g/mi
Total CO = 0.126 g/mi
Total NOx = 0.393 g/mi
Total PM10 = 0.086 g/mi
Total SOx = 0.21 g/mi


Certified 2006 TDI PTW emissions ( http://www.epa.gov/oms/crttst.htm )

HC = 0.0194 g/mi
CO = 0.04 g/mi
NOx = 0.31 g/mi
PM = 0.046 g/mi
HC+NOx (US06) = 0.748 g/mi
HC+NOx (SC03) = 0.748 g/mi
CO (US06) = 0.05 g/mi
CO (SC03) = 0.05 g/mi


Certified 2007 Escalade PTW emissions ( http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/...403_6d2_l2.pdf )

HC = 0.58 g/mi
CO = 1.8 g/mi
NOx = 0.02 g/mi
PM = ----
HC+NOx (US06) = 0.06 g/mi
HC+NOx (SC03) = 0.12 g/mi
CO (US06) = 2.5 g/mi
CO (SC03) = 2.2 g/mi
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Old August 24th, 2010, 16:42   #48
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By the way, the GHG emissions in the WTP phase per GREET are 62 g/mi for the TDI; 149 g/mi for the Escalade.

Petroleum used in the WTP phase is 281 g/mi for the TDI; 732 g/mi for the Escalade.

Last edited by wxman; August 24th, 2010 at 17:01.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 07:43   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
...As a constructive suggestion, it would help the reader to place the raw non-WTW numbers beside those that are, just so that we can view data unblemished from the variation between gas/Diesel fuel and the GREET model.
This is graphically depicted for a generic "midsized" vehicle of various selected vehicle technologies/fuel pathways @ http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Environment/EnvironmentalHealthRT/WangGREETPresentationtoInstituteofMedicine1107REVI SED.ashx slides 21-26 (although this is based on the previous version of GREET (v1.7)).

Last edited by wxman; August 25th, 2010 at 07:46.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 17:44   #50
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I would have liked to see separate well-to-pump and tank-to-wheel numbers side-by-side specifically for the 2006 Jetta TDI and 2007 Escalade as per your original comparison above that went into the summation for the total WTW number. No need for fancy graphs, just the numbers

Great work though! One observation/question: do your/GREET's calculations also take into account evaporative losses while filling-up as well as normal vehicular evap losses?
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Old August 26th, 2010, 07:20   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
I would have liked to see separate well-to-pump and tank-to-wheel numbers side-by-side specifically for the 2006 Jetta TDI and 2007 Escalade as per your original comparison above that went into the summation for the total WTW number. No need for fancy graphs, just the numbers
2006 Jetta TDI

(Grams/Mile)

Emission..................WTP.............PTW................WTW Total

HC/VOC...................0.029...........0.0194...... .......0.0484
CO...........................0.053...........0.04. ...............0.093
NOx.........................0.169............0.31. ...............0.479
PM2.5......................0.031...........0.046.. .............0.077
HC+NOx (US06)........0.198..........0.748................ 0.946
HC+NOx (SC03)........0.198..........0.748................ 0.946
CO (US06).................0.053..........0.05........ .........0.103
CO (SC03).................0.053..........0.05........ .........0.103
SOx..........................0.086...........0.02. ...............0.106


2007 Cadillac Escalade

(Grams/Mile)

Emission..................WTP.............PTW................WTW Total

HC/VOC...................0.209...........0.067....... .......0.276
CO...........................0.126...........1.8.. ...............1.93
NOx.........................0.393...........0.02.. .............0.413
PM2.5......................0.086............0..... ..............0.086
HC+NOx (US06)........0.602..........0.069................ 0.671
HC+NOx (SC03)........0.602..........0.129................ 0.731
CO (US06).................0.126..........2.5......... ........2.63
CO (SC03).................0.126..........2.2......... ........2.33
SOx..........................0.21............0.006 ..............0.216


I did make some assumptions in the data...

The certified exhaust PM in PTW is actually total PM (TPM); I assumed it was all PM2.5. I also assumed the PTW PM emissions from the Escalade are zero, although that's almost certainly not the case (all we know from the cert sheet is that it's less than 0.01 g/mi).

Since WTP emission are a function of fuel mileage/consumption, I assumed the mileage was the same in each emission cycle (i.e., FTP75, US06, SC03). This is likely not the case, but I have no data for fuel consumption in the respective test cycles.

I used GREET's default values for PTW (exhaust) for SOx since that value is not given in the certified emissions data.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
Great work though! One observation/question: do your/GREET's calculations also take into account evaporative losses while filling-up as well as normal vehicular evap losses?
GREET is *supposed* to account for ALL emissions in the entire WTW cycle, emissions from diesel engines used to pump crude oil out of the ground, emissions from electricity used to refine the crude to gasoline/diesel fuel, emissions from diesel trucks used to transport the fuel to fuel stations, evaporative emissions during storage of the fuel, etc.

I included evaporative emissions from the Escalade based on the CARB certification data. That would include evaporative losses during refuleing (ORVR) plus evap emissions while the vehicle is "sitting", i.e., 3-day/2-day diurnal, and converting those emissions into a grams/mile equivalent.

Last edited by wxman; August 26th, 2010 at 10:11.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 08:59   #52
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You should publish in a peer-reviewed journal, or better, present your findings at a high-level conference.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 11:32   #53
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I think this does serve to illustrate the "law of unintended consequences" and inherent dangers of promulgating emission regulations "compartmentally". Exhaust emissions represent only a portion of the overall emissions associated with vehicles.

If anyone is interested, the GREET model is available for download free-of-charge on the ANL web page ( http://www.transportation.anl.gov/mo...ulation/GREET/ ).

I see they just released the latest version (v1.8d.1) today. I hope it doesn't invalidate everything I just posted!
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Old August 26th, 2010, 11:51   #54
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wxman, Thanks for the insight into Total Cradle to Grave Environmental impact. 'Comparmentalization' conjures up images of an Apartheid system for Vehicles based on energy source and other artificial categorizations. As an atmospheric scientist what is your take on reversing the steady increase in C02 levels? Do you feel alternative energy is the solution or an overall reduction in energy use on an individual basis (as in TDI) or both in terms of returning to 300 ppm CO2?
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Old August 26th, 2010, 16:26   #55
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Probably will be a monumental task to stop the increase in CO2 levels, never mind reversing it.

Based again on GREET, it appears running diesel engines on BTL (biomass-to-liquids) has the potential to have a net UPTAKE of GHG emissions (see slide #17 in http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Environment/EnvironmentalHealthRT/WangGREETPresentationtoInstituteofMedicine1107REVI SED.ashx ). Actually, biomass-based DME (dimethyl ether) used in the default diesel vehicle has the greatest net uptake of CO2 per GREET than any other fuel/technology pathways that I've tried in the model, including EVs or fuel cells.

Of course, sufficient supply of BTL or bio-DME is another issue.

Last edited by wxman; August 26th, 2010 at 16:49.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 16:51   #56
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Wxman- Do you think GHG regs will become reality in the states? That would be a game-changer when comparing the tdi vs escalade. I sense there is not the political will to go very far in that direction.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 20:50   #57
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Probably not, although I don't have any special insight. Appears it's less politically risky to increase CAFE instead.

Even then, I don't see how even the 2016 CAFE will be met without hybrids and/or diesels, at least not without significantly downsized vehicles/engines.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 21:37   #58
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Quote:
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Even then, I don't see how even the 2016 CAFE will be met without hybrids and/or diesels, at least not without significantly downsized vehicles/engines.
I don't see this as a bad thing.

Bring on the 1.4 TSI! Heck, go one step further and bring on the 1.0 TSI!
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