LSD What is good for snow?

C.Powell

Active member
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Location
Alberta
TDI
MkIV Jetta Station Wagon
Question time
Who is using a Limited Slip Differential and which one?
Specifically which is better for traction in snow/ice where a zero traction on one wheel situation may arise?
My understanding of the theory is that some (Quaife, Peloquin (?)) Need some load on both wheels while others (Wavetrac?) Will provide drive to one wheel if the other has no grip at all.
Can anyone speak to low grip scenarios v.Motorsport improved drive through corners on dry blacktop scenarios?
Thanks in advance
 

maxmoo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
Lakefield, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2000 golf, 2001 golf, 2000 beetle, 2003 wagon, 2004 golf, 2004 jetta, all diesels
I'd like to know the answer to this too, from someone that has had both peloquin and wavetrac experience in the snow.
Several of our vehicles have a peloquin lsd and for sure they have much better traction in snow than no lsd.
I have just recently purchased a wavetrac lsd but have not had the time to install it....maybe by next winter I can answer your question. :eek:
 

Wankel7

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Question time
Who is using a Limited Slip Differential and which one?
Specifically which is better for traction in snow/ice where a zero traction on one wheel situation may arise?
My understanding of the theory is that some (Quaife, Peloquin (?)) Need some load on both wheels while others (Wavetrac?) Will provide drive to one wheel if the other has no grip at all.
Can anyone speak to low grip scenarios v.Motorsport improved drive through corners on dry blacktop scenarios?
Thanks in advance
You know what would be a lot easier and cheaper than a LSD.....studded snow tires :)

I am guessing with an Alberta location you all ready run them and it isn't enough?
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
I've got a Peloquin, and with the recent cold weather, although not much in the way of snow, it's wonderful. Good AS tires and I doubt
if I'll ever get stuck. Live in a snow belt?, get any of the LSDs, turn off
all the electronic "traction control" gizmos and put on studded tires.

It's the best mod I've done to the car IMO, and I'll never own another
vehicle without one. Wet or dry, icy or 4" of snow, it transforms our
FWD cars. You do have to learn to drive it, but once you do, I guarantee you'll never look back.

My $.02
 

maxmoo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
Lakefield, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2000 golf, 2001 golf, 2000 beetle, 2003 wagon, 2004 golf, 2004 jetta, all diesels
Here's the most comprehensive summary of opinions that I've seen on the TDIForums...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4929208&highlight=LSD#post4929208
Thanks FUB...that's what I was looking for.
Two great posts from that thread......

All the electronics in the world do not make a limited slip or locking differential. They simply are NOT. Also, the diffs in these vehicles use known junk. Rivets hold the ring gear on, some have cast (not joking) spider and side gears, and the pin that retains the cross shaft breaks now and then.

As to "driving straight" with the posi, that's driver error. A posi will deliver power to both wheels most of the time, and ESPECIALLY on slick surfaces like ice or snow where the vehicle is level. Electronic controls prevent loss of control due to driver error by limiting power delivery, and/or operating the abs system allowing a one-legger. This neutering prevents your ability to "power out" of it, which is not effective on ice, but sometimes is the thing to do in mud and snow.

A posi is a posi regardless of manufacturer's fancy names. There are a few different ways to skin a cat, but the best option in ALL front wheel drives, or primary fwd awd's like subaru's and vw's will consistently be a helical gear positraction like the peloquin, quaife and yes, the wavetrac which is just a standard helical with a springloaded ramp on the pinion gears to create a pulsation in the friction which effectively prevents one leggers even in extreme conditions. 'Course the electronic traction braking also prevents this, so it may be a useless feature in some vehicles except in the case of limping a vehicle with a broken axle off the track which the wavetrac or a locker (unavailable as far as I know for these) will do.

The most common type of posi is the clutchpack. Basically it's like an open diff except with a spring assembly that pushes the side gears apart, and then clutch packs behind the side gears. The preload springs add friction to prevent one leggers, but the VAST majority of the force that locks in the clutchpacks comes from gear deflection from the spiders pushing on the side gears. This type is NOT a good choice in a fwd car because it tries to steer the vehicle straight the more torque is applied and causes constant somewhat unpredictable handling. Even in rear wheel drive vehicles a tight posi can be felt in the steering due to the clutch packs locking up and trying to "steer" the vehicle straight until the clutch packs release. Especially in light, short wheelbase vehicles.

Basically clutchpack posis start out tight and get looser, where gear posis start out loose and get tighter. Thus in normal driving clutchpack posis handle funky in a fwd, but gear posis are nearly invisible.

Personally I'm not fond of the electronic controls. My suspicion is that even with the Quaife (on order) the esp system will limit power delivery due to speed differential between the front and rear. IMO esp is designed to make up for incompetent drivers by applying the brakes here and there without your knowledge. This prevents rear end "drift" which can be controlled and instead you lose control of your front end in heavy throttle high speed cornering.
After ~20k miles on the wavetrack in my 02M 6 speed and having driven it in dry/wet/snow/ice I thought I would give my observations...

1) Very good, but not for everyone. Similar to a rear sway bar, if you're completely out of control or throw your hands in the air, stomp on the brakes and scream anytime the car does not do exactly what you want, then this is not for you - see item 4 below.

2) On the dry, I was shocked at how well it actually pulls you around/out of corners. I ended up clipping a couple curbs on the inside because the car just sucked in where I pointed it. On exit/entrance ramps, roundabouts, sweeping higher speed curves, you can steer it with the throttle at the limit. In combination with the rear sway bar it's a little more sensitive to throttle induced understeer compared to an open differential and RSB - as mentioned above, not for everyone, but if you don't push the limits you'll never notice it. Most emergency maneuvers don't involve significant applied power so overall this is lower risk than a RSB to the novice driver.

3) On the dry, you can feel it torque steer left/right in the steering wheel, but the car goes mostly straight - definitely reduces wheel spin, can more/less keep traction in 2nd gear instead of spinning the tire(s) at will with the open differential

4) In the wet or in the snow/ice with good snow tires (Hakka 5's) - this is where it can be a little dangerous to an appliance driver (someone who treats a car like an appliance - puts gas in it and forgets about it). If you stand on it in a low gear in the middle of a corner, you will go in a straight line and the steering wheel is just something to hold on to. You can apply some throttle through the corners, but not a lot - if you're paying any attention at all, you'll feel it push, back off the throttle and it will resume it's trajectory around the corner. It actually forces you to be "slow in and fast out" of the corners. Once you're most of the way through, you can stand on it and manage the slip/drift no problem. I've never experienced anything like what Birdman or PeterV describe in the posts above - it almost sounds like theirs locked both wheels tight and didn't allow any differential effect.

5) I have not driven it through any really deep snow yet, but the 750 foot lane that was 6" deep was no problem. Trying to play with it a little (after the lane was plowed out), I would drive with one tire in 6" of snow and the other in packed snow over gravel in a curve and it would just drive right through it. It didn't matter if it was a right or left curve (inside or outside wheel with traction). With my open differential 02J 5 speed, it would go through it, but would have a lot of wheel spin and you better have some momentum built up. I could stop in the middle with the wavetrack and barely spin the tires and drive out of it. So many other places in snow/ice where you don't need as much speed/momentum or as much wheel speed to get you through compared to an open differential since you always have torque to both front wheels, instead of one spinning up all the time.

6) I was pulling into the last parking spot at work the other day. On the end of the row, half the spot was dry pavement, the other half was packed snow from the plow about 6-12" deep. I got about half way in and was inching my way up the snow bank (didn't want to slide into the car next to me). Was just about all the way in the spot and goosed it a little and both front tires spun - one on dry pavement and one on packed snow.

7) There is no odd behavior - you can't feel it engaging/disengaging. No noticeable effect on braking/deceleration. The only thing is on a really tight turn (like a U-turn) while applying moderate power, you can feel a little inside wheel slip/growl, but it's subtle and you'd probably never notice it unless you were looking for it. On normal throttle, it's perfectly smooth, on full throttle it will push because both front wheels will be spinning. This isn't really a fault of the wavetrack, but an open differential would just spin up the inside tire, whereas the wavetrack will help pull you around the corner.

My car has ABS only, no other fancy electronic controls. The rear sway bar is a good combination with the wavetrack.

5 and 6 are the reasons I chose the wavetrack over the peloquin/quaife

Not cheap, but definitely more advantages than disadvantages in my opinion.
 

InfoSec

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2000
Location
Brighton, MI
I have a Wavetrac, and by design, it's much better in the snow. I have had it in my '03 Jetta (02M) for about 3 years now and love driving it in the winter here in West Michigan. I actually like driving my Jetta better than my ML350 bluetec...
 

red16vdub

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2013
Location
(617) City of CHAMPIONS
TDI
03 JSW 5spd
I have a Wavetrac, and by design, it's much better in the snow. I have had it in my '03 Jetta (02M) for about 3 years now and love driving it in the winter here in West Michigan. I actually like driving my Jetta better than my ML350 bluetec...


I would prefer driving the 03 tdi as well over the ML350 bluetec . Much better fuel economy plus O2M can't hurt.
LSD's are nice and they work, but IMHO . More important, it's all about quality tires that's specific to your region.


Bajan
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
Whichever way you go on an LSD, I can't speak too highly of installing
a top strut tie bar. Maximizes the effectiveness by keeping the wheels
upright. I got one for $70 on Ebay, along with a rear cabin bar ($26), I've got a Golf, the combo really helped to stiffen the body. The difference in feel and stability from a handling point of view was remarkable, well worth the $100 and a couple hours of installation time.

Cheers,
R*2
 

Andyinchville1

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Location
Virginia
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, 5 sp, 226K miles
Whichever way you go on an LSD, I can't speak too highly of installing
a top strut tie bar. Maximizes the effectiveness by keeping the wheels
upright. I got one for $70 on Ebay, along with a rear cabin bar ($26), I've got a Golf, the combo really helped to stiffen the body. The difference in feel and stability from a handling point of view was remarkable, well worth the $100 and a couple hours of installation time.

Cheers,
R*2
Hi

when you install the limited-slip did you notice any decrease in fuel economy because of it? It's so how bad off was it?

Thanks
Andrew
 

Rrusse11

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
Andrew,
Frankly FE is not my goal. Around town, driving like a cabbie, I get high 30s, highway mid 40s.
I have no idea if the LSD has made a
FE difference one way or the other; it certainly helps in slippery conditions,
and improves handling through the corners. It only comes in to play when pushed hard.
 

C.Powell

Active member
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Location
Alberta
TDI
MkIV Jetta Station Wagon
You know what would be a lot easier and cheaper than a LSD.....studded snow tires :)

I am guessing with an Alberta location you all ready run them and it isn't enough?
Apologies for the belated response.

Yes, you can use studded snow tires but the city roads get ploughed and studs are terrible if you have dry pavement.

Already use snow tyres, (Michelins) wouldn't be able to get out of the garage if I didn't.
We went for a set of chains, with a come along and some snow stakes and a sledgehammer in the back for dubious conditions when playing in the hills.
A big metal skid plate is very useful to give something to slide along on. And a proper shovel.
 
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