Feasibility of making the 09, 10-15ish Compliant?

Retail parts pricing (on that website) is virtually unrelated to what the manufacturer's cost is. An order of magnitude between them is not unusual. (I work in this business)

GoFaster said:

Retail parts pricing (on that website) is virtually unrelated to what the manufacturer's cost is. An order of magnitude between them is not unusual. (I work in this business)

Click to expand...

What is the cost then? Ballpark what it would be to retrofit an SCR into a car, and then adding something like a solid state post treatment onto the SCR, which is what Navistar did.

Way less than MSRP...

flyanddive said:

What is the cost then? Ballpark what it would be to retrofit an SCR into a car, and then adding something like a solid state post treatment onto the SCR, which is what Navistar did.

Click to expand...

Volvo trucks jacked their list prices by $7500 when the EPA 2007 standards took effect and another $7500 when EPA 2010 took effect. But the actual prices paid for new trucks, especially fleet sales, didin't rise near so much.

flyanddive said:

What is the cost then? Ballpark what it would be to retrofit an SCR into a car, and then adding something like a solid state post treatment onto the SCR, which is what Navistar did.

Click to expand...

You would be correct in stating that it is going to be "a lot". But to put a number to it, without knowing ANY technical details of how they propose to do it, is jumping the gun.

If I were in VW's position I'd be developing an engineered kit that is as modular as possible and which is as "plug and play" as it could possibly be, which ties into existing mounting points within the vehicle wherever it can. It's a given that the exhaust system has to be changed, so rather than fight with inserting new components into an existing exhaust system, just unbolt the whole existing mess at the turbo and replace the WHOLE thing as one module all the way to the back of the car (which also affords the opportunty to re-route it a bit - Mk5s have a big open space next to the fuel tank that the only thing going through the area is the exhaust pipe). Likewise build a fuel tank module that replaces the existing fuel tank, and includes the DEF tank and pump and heater and attaches to the same spots in the vehicle that the existing fuel tank does. Wiring harness module - the existing ECU doesn't have wired I/O for operating the AdBlue dosing system, but that's what CANbus is for. Plug the wiring harness into CANbus and power and ground, route it, and plug it into the dosing module. Reflash the ECU to make it all work - Done.

If it can be done in this manner then VW can make 325,000 such modules on an assembly line, and while there's still significant labour involved with installation due to how hard the DPF is to get to on these cars, doing it by modular assemblies minimizes the chances of screwing up. And by replacing the WHOLE aftertreatment system there's no worries about what condition the existing DPF is in AND they don't care if someone has tampered with it by removing the system because it's ALL getting replaced.

This is THE most cost effective way to do a retrofit of the type being contemplated here and which would give the best warranty performance afterwards.

Impressively stated & detailed. I'm very appreciative of your clarity.
Thank you, for I am definitely NOT giving up my car. No way..

Just give me a brand new 1.4 diesel they have and it is compliant.
As I understand they can change the 2011 up over to DEF but they can't do the 2009's and 2010's.
Lots of rumor's, so what will the dips do to keep us as future VW costumer's.
They better do it wright or a lot Vw owners will change over to some other brand, say the Chey Cruze Diesel which has a better warranty when new then the VW's do/did have.

I am not sure where anyone gets the idea that the current 2.0 2014 Passat TDI with the SCR system can not be made legal with just a software fix to reduce the NOX downstream of the catalyst. We use the exact same SCR system on the heater stacks at the refinery. We inject ammonia just before the catalyst and this combines with the heat, reduces the NOX out of the stack to the desired set point target. If the NOX reading increases the system just increases the ammonia injection which drives down the NOX to the target. All diesels now use the SCR system, including a brand new ladder firetruck. So if everybody can pass the EPA, there is no reason why VW can not pass too. It has nothing to do with the engine, every thing is down stream, including the DPF and the DPF uses the exhaust heat to regenerate (Burn) the filter clean and the SCR uses the same heat, catalyst, and UREA for the chemical reaction to clean up the NOX.

At the moment it is only speculative that the EA189 (2014 and before) Passat was troublesome to be made compliant.

It isn't enough just to be able to squirt AdBlue in there ... but the catalyst bed has to have enough surface area and residence time and it has to be in a suitable temperature range. The EA288 has the oxidizing catalyst and the combined DPF/SCR close-coupled to the engine. The EA189 has the DPF separate from the SCR and there is a lot more pipe between them. It's entirely possible that they aren't able to keep the various components at suitable operating temperatures over enough of the real-world operating conditions. Or maybe the catalysts don't have enough surface area. We don't know. We do know that later-model diesel engines that have the emission control components built in as opposed to added on, have these components as close-coupled to the engine as they can possibly get them, and the older ones aren't like that.

FXDL said:

As I understand they can change the 2011 up over to DEF but they can't do the 2009's and 2010's.
Lots of rumor's, so what will the dips do to keep us as future VW costumer's.

Click to expand...

Lots of rumors indeed.. While 2009 is slightly different (CBEA), 2010 has the exact same engine as 2011-2014 (CJAA)

So I'm not sure why 2010 couldn't be made compliant when 2011 can.

flyanddive said:

What is the cost then? Ballpark what it would be to retrofit an SCR into a car, and then adding something like a solid state post treatment onto the SCR, which is what Navistar did.

Click to expand...

This is your second mention of Navistar. It makes me wonder if that is what you are basing your information on. Navistar says that this "this" will happen to their engines if you do "that" to it - all of which may be true!

But just because it could happen on a Navistar, doesn't mean that the same thing would happen on the VW. To know what would happen from changes to the VW, would require knowledge of the internal differences between the two engines.

Could there be troubles caused by parts like intake runners or EGR valves or injectors or pumps not designed to run with increased EGR and different fueling strategies? Possibly. Maybe an intake runner is designed for a certain amount of flow and during the short duration cheat mode during testing, it works fine, but in the compliant mode after a retrofit, it would see that flow all the time and it could cause something like soot building up in an area and eventually clogging. Or maybe something is now exposed to more heat or more duty cycles because of different programming.

These are just some things that I pulled out of my hat and are just examples that show that there can be unintended consequences.

But unless you have specific information on VW engines, your sky-will-fall example is as much speculation as my examples.

I have a '09 and didn't buy it because it was clean. Bought it for performance and mileage and have 150K on it and still like the car.
As time passes without news from VW my hopes are diminishing of a fix for the '09. I can't afford another payment at this time and the thought of getting a new car payment sucks! Not looking for a handout here, but VW advertised it as a "Clean Diesel" and they sold me a "Cheat Diesel" instead. When I screw up it usually cost me money, so don't feel sorry for VW. They deserve what it cost them and they have promised to "make it right".

Fix my car and make me happy with it's mileage and performance or "make it right" and make me a offer I can't refuse! I don't think either one will happen and I am screwed!

It's worth noting that flyanddive's Navistar source tried using unit injection instead of common rail setups up until around 2010. Of course they ran into major issues with it, just like Caterpillar did when they tried unit injectors for some of their DPF equipped engines back in the day.

LOL! Can we say "Back in the day" for ten years ago? I guess it's all relative.

AR-HICK said:

I have a '09 and didn't buy it because it was clean. Bought it for performance and mileage and have 150K on it and still like the car.
As time passes without news from VW my hopes are diminishing of a fix for the '09. I can't afford another payment at this time and the thought of getting a new car payment sucks! Not looking for a handout here, but VW advertised it as a "Clean Diesel" and they sold me a "Cheat Diesel" instead. When I screw up it usually cost me money, so don't feel sorry for VW. They deserve what it cost them and they have promised to "make it right".

Fix my car and make me happy with it's mileage and performance or "make it right" and make me a offer I can't refuse! I don't think either one will happen and I am screwed!

Click to expand...

I am in the same boat as you are. I typically keep a car for up to 300k miles, so the thought of having to get rid of it now really makes me mad. Unfortunately, my DPF is leaking soot now (cracked), and EGR is starting to get plugged. (If yours 'aint yet, it will soon). A new combined CAT <-> DPF for the 2009 costs about $2800! So, at this point, our best bet is to either take the buy out, OR hope the fix will install a completely new exhaust system, which includes SCR and a standalone DPF (and lifetime warranty on emissions components). Getting "grandfathered" or a waiver will not help us at this point.

However, if we end up selling and have to shell out for a new car, I will be so pissed that this will be the last VW I ever buy. I love the way the car drives and the engine performs, and don't mind fixing everything myself, but spending big bucks on poorly engineered components really sucks.

If you have a cracked DPF, does a light go on or is just makes everything sootier? My car after the 26O3 update shortly got sootier on the outside.

Eventually it will throw a check engine light for EGR insufficient flow due to the EGR filter getting clogged with soot that makes it through the crack in the DPF.

imurrx said:

If you have a cracked DPF, does a light go on or is just makes everything sootier? My car after the 26O3 update shortly got sootier on the outside.

Click to expand...

VeeDubTDI said:

Eventually it will throw a check engine light for EGR insufficient flow due to the EGR filter getting clogged with soot that makes it through the crack in the DPF.

Click to expand...

if you want more info,

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=445921

I have been watching my slightly sooty tailpipe for a quite a while.

saw a couple of the P0401 errors once, but not enough to throw the check engine light.