Feasibility of making the 09, 10-15ish Compliant?

pacecar · Apr 22, 2016

So, I don't have any real good pictures(if someone has something better please post)
In my case the 2011 looks similar to this

A 2.0 system with Adblue SCR

looks like at the very least
1) adblue reservoir and filler and plumbing
2) adblue injector
3) SCR catalyst section of tailpipe
4) NOx sensor
perhaps a few other things
Looks like a completely redesigned exhaust would be easiest to deploy. I cant see hacking into and retrofitting being a cost effective remediation with respect to labor.
What do you guys think would be required for physically fixing the vehicles?

frugality · Apr 22, 2016

I don't think it's worth speculating. We're what?...7 months into 'dieselgate'? And the most recent statement talks about a buyback and only throws on a fix 'if possible later' at the end. It'd be a huge job to add an SCR system to these cars.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Dorothy L. Sayers argued that the question was "simply a debating exercise"...

flyanddive · Apr 22, 2016

Pacecar, you can't add an adblue system to an engine not designed for it, thus an entire engine replacement is required to bring the car into compliance.

VeeDubTDI · Apr 22, 2016

flyanddive said:
Pacecar, you can't add an adblue system to an engine not designed for it, thus an entire engine replacement is required to bring the car into compliance.

Why can't you?

autdi · Apr 22, 2016

Since it is downstream of the DPF, and in some models well back from the engine, it only has to be hot enough to evaporate the water that suspends the (NH2)2CO into NH3 necessary for the reaction, although this conversion could be well forward of the catalyst. If the issue is getting a really big catalyst, the muffler, being a big item at the back of the car, could be a SCR instead.

As to can't add it to a car, it likely has the same computer in both, so there is nothing preventing it from working, other than finding a spot for the SCR to fit. LNT needed to be forward to use heat and fuel to reduce down the stored NOx, the SCR is a different reaction, so it need not be in the same physical location.

pacecar · Apr 22, 2016

flyanddive said:
Pacecar, you can't add an adblue system to an engine not designed for it, thus an entire engine replacement is required to bring the car into compliance.

sure they could

, it may not be advisable

I made some assumptions, namely that a urea system would be necessary in getting emissions under control

Perhaps they don't use what they already have in place: ckra vs cjaa and all

Just hearing about a "fix" and wondering what that would actually mean/entail

flyanddive · Apr 22, 2016

Here are some better pictures, the TDI without adblue:

Here is the adblue system:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/audi-q7-adblue-tank.jpg

You could retrofit, but that would require retooling of the engine. At that price, it is cheaper to swap out the engine completely.

flyanddive · Apr 22, 2016

autdi said:
Since it is downstream of the DPF, and in some models well back from the engine, it only has to be hot enough to evaporate the water that suspends the (NH2)2CO into NH3 necessary for the reaction, although this conversion could be well forward of the catalyst. If the issue is getting a really big catalyst, the muffler, being a big item at the back of the car, could be a SCR instead.

As to can't add it to a car, it likely has the same computer in both, so there is nothing preventing it from working, other than finding a spot for the SCR to fit. LNT needed to be forward to use heat and fuel to reduce down the stored NOx, the SCR is a different reaction, so it need not be in the same physical location.

Adding the SCR is about a $7000 fix, but it is still not compliant with emission standards. The adblue system would be about $25K to $35K fix. An engine swap to gas would be about $15K-ish, the cheapest option.

pacecar · Apr 22, 2016

flyanddive

Yeah, in reading the transcript of yesterdays hearing. The language of a "fix" is still coming from the VW layers

Maybe its just a tune and a fine/offset penalty for whatever the overage is. I cant see that scenario being okay with CARB

Thats also assuming that the solution remain ubiquitous across the US

VeeDubTDI · Apr 22, 2016

flyanddive said:
Adding the SCR is about a $7000 fix, but it is still not compliant with emission standards. The adblue system would be about $25K to $35K fix. An engine swap to gas would be about $15K-ish, the cheapest option.

Where are you getting these numbers from? SCR and AdBlue system are synonymous on VW TDIs.

flyanddive · Apr 22, 2016

VeeDubTDI said:
Where are you getting these numbers from? SCR and AdBlue system are synonymous on VW TDIs.

Sorry, I reread what I wrote, and my post wasn't worded correctly, so here it should be more clear what the numbers are: The SCR(adblue urea) system would be $7K in parts, $2500 for the actual urea system, and $3500 for engine modifications. The $25k-35k is in total for the whole system, parts, labor, engineering, retooling, and crash testing. These are estimates on the low side. However, with all that, the car still doesn't meet emission standards. That's why I'm not opting for the buyback, as it lets VW off the hook easy.

An engine swap to regular gas would be the cheapest option for VW, or actually the buyback is. The bottom line is there is no fix for the TDI engine coming.

Edit: here are the list prices for the adblue system parts:
Cooler ($361)
Aftertreatment Fuel Tank ($534)
Dosing Valve ($240)
DPFE ($105)
Temperature Sensor ($171)
EGR ($401)
Catalyst ($688)

MBQ · Apr 22, 2016

Then why the heck are they still talking about a "fix"

Just make VW pay each owner 5k in cash, give VW a 3k fine per vehicle, get those ambulance chasers off the hook, grandfather all the cars already!

flyanddive said:
Sorry, I reread what I wrote, and my post wasn't worded correctly, so here it should be more clear what the numbers are: The SCR(adblue urea) system would be $7K in parts, $2500 for the actual urea system, and $3500 for engine modifications. The $25k-35k is in total for the whole system, parts, labor, engineering, retooling, and crash testing. These are estimates on the low side. However, with all that, the car still doesn't meet emission standards. That's why I'm not opting for the buyback, as it lets VW off the hook easy.

An engine swap to regular gas would be the cheapest option for VW, or actually the buyback is. The bottom line is there is no fix for the TDI engine coming.

Edit: here are the list prices for the adblue system parts:
Cooler ($361)
Aftertreatment Fuel Tank ($534)
Dosing Valve ($240)
DPFE ($105)
Temperature Sensor ($171)
EGR ($401)
Catalyst ($688)

autdi · Apr 22, 2016

flyanddive said:
Sorry, I reread what I wrote, and my post wasn't worded correctly, so here it should be more clear what the numbers are: The SCR(adblue urea) system would be $7K in parts, $2500 for the actual urea system, and $3500 for engine modifications. The $25k-35k is in total for the whole system, parts, labor, engineering, retooling, and crash testing. These are estimates on the low side. However, with all that, the car still doesn't meet emission standards. That's why I'm not opting for the buyback, as it lets VW off the hook easy.

An engine swap to regular gas would be the cheapest option for VW, or actually the buyback is. The bottom line is there is no fix for the TDI engine coming.

Edit: here are the list prices for the adblue system parts:
Cooler ($361)
Aftertreatment Fuel Tank ($534)
Dosing Valve ($240)
DPFE ($105)
Temperature Sensor ($171)
EGR ($401)
Catalyst ($688)

I don't think you understand the problem, why is any change to the engine required? SCR is completely contained to the exhaust stream, you don't have to change the engine at all. As to the system not working, what? It's a chemical reaction that has to be balanced with an appropriate catalyst size, it's not that complicated. Is the current Passat SCR too small, perhaps, we don't know that answer. Does that mean that all SCRs are too small to work, of course not. This is a relatively simple engineering task to fix the NOx levels to be in compliance and then a packaging task to fit the SCR shape into the bodywork.

meerschm · Apr 23, 2016

It is not a question of if they can put together a compliant emissions treatment system,

the question is how much it will cost, and what the result looks like in terms of performance, economy, and longevity. (where have I read those words before?)

flyanddive · Apr 23, 2016

autdi said:
This is a relatively simple engineering task to fix the NOx levels to be in compliance and then a packaging task to fit the SCR shape into the bodywork.

No it isn't a simple engineering task. Of course they can get the emissions down, but they also have meet the advertised performance, weight & dimensions, and fuel consumption of the original sold car. This isn't a customer asking for their car to be modified, this is about making the car legal, and as advertised. They bottom line is the buyback option is significantly cheaper for VW.

GoFaster · Apr 23, 2016

Here is the Mercedes-Benz OM654 engine showing the oxidizing catalyst and the combined DPF and SCR catalyst (note: these are not two catalysts within the same housing, they are one and the same).

I intentionally chose this engine as an illustration because it is not a VW engine, it is new on the market, and M-B is claiming that it is designed for the upcoming "real driving emissions" testing.

Note the AdBlue injector that is spraying against a little series of slats in the flow stream between the two catalysts. Presumably this is to get better flow distribution and ensure that the AdBlue is fully vaporized and decomposed into ammonia.

Not shown in this image is that there is another SCR catalyst downstream (underfloor) of the DPF/SCR.

For comparison, here is the EA288 aftertreatment system

Aside from layout differences, it's conceptually similar.

A large difference from the earlier designs is how close-coupled the oxidizing catalyst is to the engine and how close-coupled the DPF/SCR is to that. If anything, I like the M-B layout a bit more; the VW design has a big housing between the two that would allow heat loss. The old designs had everything spread out underfloor which means more heat loss which means the system has to work harder to keep it all up to temperature.

Now, technically, it is not necessary to replace the whole engine in order to achieve this ... just everything after the exhaust turbine outlet of the turbocharger.

The M-B OM654 engine is going to replace the OM651, which is the base engine in the Sprinter (including the North American model).

Given the conceptual similarities between the OM654 and the EA288 it really does look like the EA288 was on the right track (or at least, comparable to the train of thought that M-B took). Unless one of the catalysts is undersized, or there is some other fatal flaw that is not readily apparent with what we can see on hand, it ought to be possible for the EA288 to comply with the regulations.

The earlier models will be a much bigger challenge.

flyanddive · Apr 23, 2016

GoFaster said:
Here is the Mercedes-Benz OM654 engine showing the oxidizing catalyst and the combined DPF and SCR catalyst (note: these are not two catalysts within the same housing, they are one and the same).

I intentionally chose this engine as an illustration because it is not a VW engine, it is new on the market, and M-B is claiming that it is designed for the upcoming "real driving emissions" testing.

Note the AdBlue injector that is spraying against a little series of slats in the flow stream between the two catalysts. Presumably this is to get better flow distribution and ensure that the AdBlue is fully vaporized and decomposed into ammonia.

Not shown in this image is that there is another SCR catalyst downstream (underfloor) of the DPF/SCR.

For comparison, here is the EA288 aftertreatment system

Aside from layout differences, it's conceptually similar.

A large difference from the earlier designs is how close-coupled the oxidizing catalyst is to the engine and how close-coupled the DPF/SCR is to that. If anything, I like the M-B layout a bit more; the VW design has a big housing between the two that would allow heat loss. The old designs had everything spread out underfloor which means more heat loss which means the system has to work harder to keep it all up to temperature.

Now, technically, it is not necessary to replace the whole engine in order to achieve this ... just everything after the exhaust turbine outlet of the turbocharger.

The M-B OM654 engine is going to replace the OM651, which is the base engine in the Sprinter (including the North American model).

Given the conceptual similarities between the OM654 and the EA288 it really does look like the EA288 was on the right track (or at least, comparable to the train of thought that M-B took). Unless one of the catalysts is undersized, or there is some other fatal flaw that is not readily apparent with what we can see on hand, it ought to be possible for the EA288 to comply with the regulations.

The earlier models will be a much bigger challenge.

Yes, the adblue is most effective at certain parameters mainly temperature, vapor pressure. The system could be added to the older ea 189, but it goes back to my original post about needing engine retooling. The cost would be outrageous.

gearheadgrrrl · Apr 23, 2016

SCR is quite doable, many diesel makers fitted SCR to old engine designs to meet the tightening emission requirements like EPA 07/10 and Euro 6. Mileage will probabaly actually improve, and maybe performance too. Sorry, but VW will only buyback all the affected cars if there is no other option.

flyanddive · Apr 23, 2016

gearheadgrrrl said:
SCR is quite doable, many diesel makers fitted SCR to old engine designs to meet the tightening emission requirements like EPA 07/10 and Euro 6. Mileage will probabaly actually improve, and maybe performance too. Sorry, but VW will only buyback all the affected cars if there is no other option.

Actually, it appears they were cheating. The SCR retrofit is not an option unless the engine is designed for it like the EA288. The one on say, the Passat, does not provide the conditions necessary for the chemical reaction to fully convert the NOx using adblue. It's not a case of size of the SCR or amount of fluid. There is not a band aid approach here. If there was, they would be fixing cars already. Like I said, VW is trying to get as many people as possible to fall for the buyback, this is to reduce the cost of car replacement for the holdouts. Or possibly the government decides just to let these leftover cars pollute.

VeeDubTDI · Apr 23, 2016

The "conditions necessary" are all in the ECU programming. There is nothing particularly unique about the engine itself on an SCR-equipped vehicle. If you think I'm wrong, please list specifics about what in the engine is different.

TDI2000Zim · Apr 23, 2016

My 2 pence, none the richer:

The CHEAT was solely a software package that detected "treadmill" running conditions and lowered torque acceleration, and increased REGEN frequency: thus the automobile passed the tests WITH THE INSTALLED HARDWARE.

The FIX required is only software. Once the software is installed, the cars will run "treadmill" conditions 100% of the time. No need to install new hardware. The FIX will affect how the engines operate, by lowering torque acceleration and increasing REGEN frequency. AND it may be an annoying performance penalty for all of us used to our muscular diesel sedans. But, on the other side of the coin, the ADVERTISED mpg/horsepower will still be fulfilled, because the cars previously performed those parameters WHILE running on the "treadmill".

AdBlue consumption will increase (perhaps up to quadruple, or anything in between). And the cars will feel feeble on acceleration. And, the 50+ mpg some of us used to get will vanish. It is the price we pay to be EPA compliant. Still, 42 mpg for a fixed TDI is better than the average 25 mpg in most gasoline full size sedans.

flyanddive · Apr 23, 2016

TDI2000Zim said:
My 2 pence, none the richer:

The CHEAT was solely a software package that detected "treadmill" running conditions and lowered torque acceleration, and increased REGEN frequency: thus the automobile passed the tests WITH THE INSTALLED HARDWARE.

The FIX required is only software. Once the software is installed, the cars will run "treadmill" conditions 100% of the time. No need to install new hardware. The FIX will affect how the engines operate, by lowering torque acceleration and increasing REGEN frequency. AND it may be an annoying performance penalty for all of us used to our muscular diesel sedans. But, on the other side of the coin, the ADVERTISED mpg/horsepower will still be fulfilled, because the cars previously performed those parameters WHILE running on the "treadmill".

AdBlue consumption will increase (perhaps up to quadruple, or anything in between). And the cars will feel feeble on acceleration. And, the 50+ mpg some of us used to get will vanish. It is the price we pay to be EPA compliant. Still, 42 mpg for a fixed TDI is better than the average 25 mpg in most gasoline full size sedans.

The cheat is causing the EGR flow to increase, and less bypass of the LNT, the loss of power is a byproduct, but you are right the DPF load will increase considerably.

I don't think it will be a software fix because the running in cheat mode will reduce the life span of the exhaust system parts considerably, causing even more costly repairs than I stated above with an engine swap. In extreme cases, running in cheat mode may result in engine damage and/or fire with failed parts. Definitely not a good situation.

bubbagumpshrimp · Apr 23, 2016

I think that if it was possible..and if it could have resulted in a car that people would have wanted to drive...they would have done it right the first time around.

Assuming they come up with a way to make them compliant, you can bet that customers are not going to be happy with the results.

flyanddive · Apr 23, 2016

bubbagumpshrimp said:
I think that if it was possible..and if it could have resulted in a car that people would have wanted to drive...they would have done it right the first time around.

Assuming they come up with a way to make them compliant, you can bet that customers are not going to be happy with the results.

It was about holding onto market share while the EA288 was being developed. The EA189 was never engineered to operate at such a low emissions level, even the Urea system on some can't handle it. Using software to open the EGR(exhaust gas recir) will lower NOx to levels the LNT can handle(cheat mode), but that causes all kinds of issues.

The cheat software deprives the engine of oxygen, that it turn reduces the NOx levels, lowers output power, and destroys the engine, and clogs the exhaust system. The exhaust system is unclogged by injecting extra fuel to burn up contaminants.

flyanddive · Apr 23, 2016

VeeDubTDI said:
The "conditions necessary" are all in the ECU programming. There is nothing particularly unique about the engine itself on an SCR-equipped vehicle. If you think I'm wrong, please list specifics about what in the engine is different.

Even with the SCR Urea system, the materials in the EA189 are not built to handle the increase exhaust gas flow, which causes acidity, and carbon build up in the engine. The new EA288 engine is designed to handle it. That's why I have said the fix is the engine swap.

GTSLOW · Apr 23, 2016

TDI2000Zim said:
My 2 pence, none the richer:

The CHEAT was solely a software package that detected "treadmill" running conditions and lowered torque acceleration, and increased REGEN frequency: thus the automobile passed the tests WITH THE INSTALLED HARDWARE.

The FIX required is only software. Once the software is installed, the cars will run "treadmill" conditions 100% of the time. No need to install new hardware. The FIX will affect how the engines operate, by lowering torque acceleration and increasing REGEN frequency. AND it may be an annoying performance penalty for all of us used to our muscular diesel sedans. But, on the other side of the coin, the ADVERTISED mpg/horsepower will still be fulfilled, because the cars previously performed those parameters WHILE running on the "treadmill".

AdBlue consumption will increase (perhaps up to quadruple, or anything in between). And the cars will feel feeble on acceleration. And, the 50+ mpg some of us used to get will vanish. It is the price we pay to be EPA compliant. Still, 42 mpg for a fixed TDI is better than the average 25 mpg in most gasoline full size sedans.

What ever you need to tell yourself at night to sleep. There's far more affected by just turning on the programming than just dealing with decreased torque and urea use.

bubbagumpshrimp · Apr 24, 2016

flyanddive said:
It was about holding onto market share while the EA288 was being developed. The EA189 was never engineered to operate at such a low emissions level, even the Urea system on some can't handle it. Using software to open the EGR(exhaust gas recir) will lower NOx to levels the LNT can handle(cheat mode), but that causes all kinds of issues.

The cheat software deprives the engine of oxygen, that it turn reduces the NOx levels, lowers output power, and destroys the engine, and clogs the exhaust system. The exhaust system is unclogged by injecting extra fuel to burn up contaminants.

Then they fielded the EA288...and that didn't pass emissions either. I'm curious to see what an EPA complaint EA288 looks like. I.e. Average fuel economy, performance, etc. If they could have made it work with just additional Adblue usage without impacting fuel economy or performance...I would think they'd have done that in the first place.

tadawson · Apr 24, 2016

The 288, IIRC, failed on a technicality, not a tailpipe test, since it ended up with the same ecu code . . .

flyanddive · Apr 24, 2016

tadawson said:
The 288, IIRC, failed on a technicality, not a tailpipe test, since it ended up with the same ecu code . . .

Correct, the cheat was still on there, so they need to be retested, but should meet standards.

Marsupial · Apr 24, 2016

flyanddive said:
Correct, the cheat was still on there, so they need to be retested, but should meet standards.

With all due respect, I'll believe it when I see it. Until then it's just wishful thinking and vaporware software "fix"....

Feasibility of making the 09, 10-15ish Compliant?

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