Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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Jeta Life

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Brilliant!:D : If it wasn't so much trouble I would have a slow hand clap gif for you.
VW's actions have made me comfortably numb.
It's us and them.
The grass was greener, the light was brighter.
What people don't seem to get is what dslman just obviously stated about the 40x NOx claims being erroneously aired by the various factions that control the media. A media which we may just as suspicious of. Sure, VW cheated but 40x is a lie, we dont pollute that every time we hit the gas. Maybe in extreme conditions, passing uphill, under a heavy load, etc.
Nonetheless VW will pay and have already suffered a lot of lost business of people who had nothing to do with the cheat. Honest people working jobs in the factories and shops to bring home bread for their families. Not everyone at Volkswagen is guilty on all counts.
When I walked around yesterday and came across a family with 2 TDIs I could see they were an unusual bunch. A family, maybe a little dysfunctional, but still a family. And if anyone here thinks that family has to surrender their two cars paid with hard earned dollars because of some ridiculous air quality standard, it's not fair to place that stress on these innocent families.
Let people keep their cars till they want to give them up. Give them a little compensation for their loss in value, but don't expect them to go out car shopping for 2 new cars. That hurts. I'm sorry but that hurts. Not everybody wants to give up their car, but they'll take another goodwill check to keep them going.
 

ATR

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Be weird when this ordeal is over and everyone is posting in a "show us your new car thread".
Kinda sad too, if the new diesels are not certified.
Post after post of subarus and priussssses (that's the plural, right?)
You won't find me in a Prius, EVER. Too small, too boring, too.. BLAH :p

I have been eyeing up the Subaru Forrester... I'll test drive one and see what I think soon.

Otherwise I may just rock another VW. I'll defiantly go that route if they offer decent incentives to do so.
Looks like VW has another very interesting engine coming out soon that may fit the bill for those that want maximum mpg:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/53131/
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
I don't quit until I figure out a solution.

I wonder... maybe all I would have to do is get another key set, one key per ECU. OH WAIT, I forgot about the Instrument cluster, and now I remember my 2000 GOLF KEY had to match the Instrument cluster, it was actually A 1999.5 MK4 TDI which I never had the immobilizer problem, NOT the 2001. (I've bought and sold a LOT of VW Diesels over the years)
Plus, you can technically delete the Immobilizer on a Mark IV (I think those used Immobilizer 2 and 3).

You might look into Flashzilla as your best bet - save your stock tune, get 23O6, and reflash the old tune.
 

Lodi781

Active member
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Location
CT
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2014 Golf TDI 4 dr
Man, your story sounds close to mine. I just moved to a ski resort in August 2015 and needs changed to an AWD. Was looking at subarus when the scandal hit. Trade value fell about $6k.
I'm sick of looking at cars now. I'm thinking I buy a clunker AWD, and then put the vw proceeds down on a piece of rental property I've had my eyes on.
There are outback a everywhere up here. I hate them. I wanted a Tacoma but the prices start at 35k for an AWD, nope. Thinking of getting an old jeep Cherokee or or high mileage 4Runner or whatever and doing something useful with the buy back $

I wasn't sold on the outback either. My tacoma has 127k on it. I have a 3 inch OME lift on it, topper and some minor interior stuff done. I don't know whether to just keep it, spend the buy back money on it and drive it till 300k, or take the equity I have in it and start over and learn from the mistakes I made on the tacoma and do things right with the 4runner...Still up in the air about it..
 

dslman

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San Diego
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1998 Jetta, 2000 GOLF, 2013 Touareg, 2015 Q5
You won't find me in a Prius, EVER. Too small, too boring, too.. BLAH :p
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... And... IMO.... TOO UGLY! (but not as UGLY as a Nissan Leaf! again...IMO)
Nissan makes the UGLIEST VEHICLES ...again, IMO.
JUKE! YUK!
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Is it possible this could cause problems in a CR TDI because of the immobilizer? I'd imagine it would work just fine for an ALH or PD TDI.
If you swap an ECU I would expect you would need to go through the key programming procedure once using VCDS so the spare ECU recognizes your keys. You're actually not programming the keys. The ECU gets programmed during the procedure to recognize your keys and that's why you need to have all keys present when doing the procedure.

A spare ECU could have an immobilizer delete tune put in it that leaves everything else bone stock. An immobilizer delete should be legal to do since it has absolutely nothing to do with emissions. Some owners of modded TDIs have had an immo delete included as part of their performance tune due to problems with the immo system as the car ages. An immo delete takes care of it.
 

GSwag

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Location
Georgia
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2013 Passat
I think your on the right track but in the tacomas defense that's the only vechicle I have ever owned that has held its resale value! Granted mine is now built into a desert truck and that probably hurt the resale but I'm shocked what old tacomas go for! Before diesel gate I was shocked my 05 Tacoma was worth more than my 12 wagon. And both had a relatively similar sticker price!
Yeah I know, and I know that's why they sell for so much money. But they start at about $35k for a 4x4. That's just insane. Because the resale value is so high, you're better off just buying new, but then I'm back to the $35k thing.

I test drove one and the interior was cheap plastic everywhere. Felt like an $18k vehicle sitting in it. I want a decent vehicle to replace my Passat but I'm not finding anything that 1. I like OR 2. Is affordable.
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Baltimore
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2011 Golf TDI 6MT
So true, it'll be a nice tdi forum for everything but tdi devices. Which, is the correct plural dictated by vw right? Damnit Phil!
VW's actions have made me comfortably numb.
It's us and them.
The grass was greener, the light was brighter.
What people don't seem to get is what dslman just obviously stated about the 40x NOx claims being erroneously aired by the various factions that control the media. A media which we may just as suspicious of. Sure, VW cheated but 40x is a lie, we dont pollute that every time we hit the gas. Maybe in extreme conditions, passing uphill, under a heavy load, etc.
Nonetheless VW will pay and have already suffered a lot of lost business of people who had nothing to do with the cheat. Honest people working jobs in the factories and shops to bring home bread for their families. Not everyone at Volkswagen is guilty on all counts.
When I walked around yesterday and came across a family with 2 TDIs I could see they were an unusual bunch. A family, maybe a little dysfunctional, but still a family. And if anyone here thinks that family has to surrender their two cars paid with hard earned dollars because of some ridiculous air quality standard, it's not fair to place that stress on these innocent families.
Let people keep their cars till they want to give them up. Give them a little compensation for their loss in value, but don't expect them to go out car shopping for 2 new cars. That hurts. I'm sorry but that hurts. Not everybody wants to give up their car, but they'll take another goodwill check to keep them going.
I'd personally simply want to keep my car... However it really depends on how things go with the court date June 21st. I'm really curious how they plan to fix our cars or even if there is a fix. As it's been rehashed 2,000 times in this thread, it's not going to be easy to retrofit our cars for SCR. And since I live in a CARB state I might be forced into a buyback if there's no fix.

If the fix isn't one I'd be happy with I have a few ideas for replacements already. As of right now I'm prepping for the worst, though I'm hopeful for a outcome where I may be able to keep the car.
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
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2011 Golf TDI 6MT
Yeah I know, and I know that's why they sell for so much money. But they start at about $35k for a 4x4. That's just insane. Because the resale value is so high, you're better off just buying new, but then I'm back to the $35k thing.
I test drove one and the interior was cheap plastic everywhere. Felt like an $18k vehicle sitting in it. I want a decent vehicle to replace my Passat but I'm not finding anything that 1. I like OR 2. Is affordable.
Look at used cars with like 40-50k miles on them. Pretty much every make/model/engine type still has LOTS of life left in it. You can get a used mkvi Golf R with 50k miles on the clock for somewhere in the mid 20's. If you don't want VW again (honestly can't fault anyone who doesn't) check out Mazda. They seem to have the best interior that I've sat in for the price. They are also very reliable and fun to drive.

The only reason I'm still considering VW is that I really can't find another car that fits me as good as my golf. Heck, that's 80% of the reason why I bought it to begin with.
 

CHawk

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Location
The Great Pacific Northwest
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2011 Golf TDI 4D DSG (gone buyback)
Man, your story sounds close to mine. I just moved to a ski resort in August 2015 and needs changed to an AWD. Was looking at subarus when the scandal hit. Trade value fell about $6k.
I'm sick of looking at cars now. I'm thinking I buy a clunker AWD, and then put the vw proceeds down on a piece of rental property I've had my eyes on.
There are outback a everywhere up here. I hate them. I wanted a Tacoma but the prices start at 35k for an AWD, nope. Thinking of getting an old jeep Cherokee or or high mileage 4Runner or whatever and doing something useful with the buy back $
Similar story here. Things change. The need that led me to buy the efficient TDI as a commuter vehicle is gone--I now work part-time, from home. I've driven the TDI 15,000 miles total over the past 3 years.

I'm also looking at an old Jeep Cherokee or high-mileage 4Runner. In my case, I want something to drive into the mountains on Forest Service roads to enjoy the spectacular summer views.

Would I be crazy if I was thinking of buying a 12-year-old Land Rover Discovery?
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Are the BMW diesels as easy to work on as the TDIs?
Generally yes. Still too early to tell. I haven't had to do any serious work on them yet. :cool:

Oil changes and oil used are almost identical to TDIs. They have the same type of oil filter and I use my extractor pump to suck oil out thru the dipstick. The engines in both cars hold around 8L of oil. BMW gassers no longer have a dipstick and rely on an electronic oil level sensor. The diesels have an electronic oil sensor but still have a traditional dipstick. OCI is 11k miles (previously 13k) in the X5 35d. OCI in the 535d is 10k miles. Oil used is identical to what CR TDIs require. The oil spec I have to look for is BMW Longlife-04 (LL04). Generally any VW 507.00 oil will also have LL04 approval but not necessarily the other way around. Many VW 505.01 oils also have LL04 approval. BMW diesels may offer a little more flexibility with oil requirements but still require a high quality diesel rated synthetic oil like TDIs do. Oil consumption between changes has been negligible, barely moves on the dipstick, never need to add oil between changes.

The fuel filter is a little harder to get to and is underneath. I've had my BMW dealer (Tulley BMW in Nashua NH) do the FF change. I will DIY eventually.

No timing belt to worry about since all BMWs that I know of use a timing chain. Aside from one of their V8 gassers (N63?) known to have timing chain issues, BMW's timing chains generally have been reliable.

I have not heard of turbo failures in BMW diesels, nor have I heard of DPFs cracking. I have heard of a few cases of NOx sensor failures and a few failures with the SCR tank system. Nothing major.

BMW diesels in the USA have had problems with intake clogging aka carbon buildup aka CBU, similar to TDIs. CBU cleanout is a little more involved than intake cleaning in a TDI. Most CBU cases have been related to the owner babying the car and never driving it hard like it was stolen and also using the car exclusively for short trips. The same guidelines for driving a TDI properly also apply to BMW diesels: (1) Put only the best quality diesel fuel into it, (2) drive the p!$$ out of it, and (3) repeat steps 1 and 2. CBU is preventable.

BMW's Xdrive AWD system is based on their RWD system. The transmission is a conventional torque converter and planetary setup, not a DSG type. The 535d has an 8-speed tranny (ZF8). The X5 35d has a 6-speed setup, what the 335d has. While I will always prefer a manual transmission if I can get it, I have found the ZF8 auto tranny in the 535d to be one automatic transmission that I really DO like.

I used to be a total die hard manual tranny guy but now if it came down to choosing between a diesel automatic or a gasser manual, I'll take the diesel automatic. The gasser is totally out of the question, first and foremost because it's a gasser.

pkhoury said:
Have you test driven one of those? It'd be curious to drive one. I'm guessing no manual transmission option, though? After test driving an older Powerstroke truck, I think I'd want a Cummins myself, and I hear they're easier to work on.
Make sure the dowel pin issue in the Cummins has been addressed. You don't want the dowel pin to work its way out and drop into the timing gears and jam 'em up and cause major carnage.

I owned a 2008 F-350 SuperDuty 6.4L PowerStroke for a while. I liked how it drove. I sold the truck after getting my X5 35d. I could have kept the truck and I now miss it and wish I had kept it. I have no buyer's remorse for getting my BMWs but I'm having some seller's remorse for selling the truck. The truck proved to be too damn useful. I had less need for a truck at the time and I was concerned about the 6.4's long term reliability and reputation for being a maintenance time bomb. The 6.4 is a big improvement from the POS 6.0 but the 6.4 has issues of its own. My 6.4 PowerStroke was in pristine shape and the rest of the truck was in good shape. I shoulda just kept it! That means I probably will have another F-350 again someday. :cool:

Ford supposedly has an F-150 diesel in the works. Here's spy video proof:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/28/ford-f150-diesel-spied-video/

The F-150 diesel might be just a test mule for testing an engine planned to go into a vehicle destined for export. If Ford comes through and actually does offer a diesel in the F-150 in NA it would go head to head against the RAM 1500 diesel pickup.

The Nissan Titan XD pickup with the 5L V8 Cummins engine looks interesting. It received its emissions certification, post-dieselgate. Extra emissions testing was done to verify no AECDs were involved. Between the Nissan Titan XD and a Ford F-350 SuperDuty 6.7L PowerStroke, I'd lean more toward the F-350 because it is a commercial vehicle platform which the Titan XD isn't. While I don't need a truck for work, I like having a truck to do something on the weekends. I'm waiting for the SuperDuty trucks to get the aluminum body for 2017 to help survive New England winters and road salt.

Diesel is far from dead IMHO. TDIs may be dead in NA depending on what VW's long term business plans are going forward. VW as a company may eventually be dead depending on how they survive Dieselgate. The diesel pickup truck market OTOH does not appear to be threatened at all and is expanding.

Have fun! :)
 
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n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I saw an AWSHEET(VW) bumper sticker on a TDI earlier tonight. CORRUPTWAGEN would be cute too. :)
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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Location
maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
If you swap an ECU I would expect you would need to go through the key programming procedure once using VCDS so the spare ECU recognizes your keys. You're actually not programming the keys. The ECU gets programmed during the procedure to recognize your keys and that's why you need to have all keys present when doing the procedure.
A spare ECU could have an immobilizer delete tune put in it that leaves everything else bone stock. An immobilizer delete should be legal to do since it has absolutely nothing to do with emissions. Some owners of modded TDIs have had an immo delete included as part of their performance tune due to problems with the immo system as the car ages. An immo delete takes care of it.

That's right. If I chose to take the dual ecu route, I would just have an immo delete done on the ecu with stock programming. It would only be in the car for a day or two at a time anyhow.
 

Galo

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(snip)
As posted before, CARB State Owners of GEN1 cars will be forced to sell their cars back if no fix is available, California will block Registration. (another snip)
No they won't. They can't do that and the first try to do so will result in more lawsuits than even Dieselgate....

We owners are also an aggrieved party as we were sold a car supposed to be legal and now it's not, so...we were duped. CARBs problem is with VW, not with us and they cannot 'transfer' that harm to any individual owner.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
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Location
Medina, TX
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2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
I saw an AWSHEET(VW) bumper sticker on a TDI earlier tonight. CORRUPTWAGEN would be cute too. :)
I thought about getting a custom magnetic bumper sticker that says "Cleaner than an ALCO."
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
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2011 Golf TDI 6MT
Generally yes. Still too early to tell. I haven't had to do any serious work on them yet. :cool:

*snip* to save space.
I initially wasn't really thinking about a e90 335d but after all this I might pounce on one if the deal is good. Only thing I'd need to have is the sport and winter packages. Though the newer 535d might be a option. The diesel bmws seem to be overall a more reliable car compared to the vw tdi's issues. Namely the water in the intercooler, and if you're the unlucky 4% that had the fuel pump grenade on you bmw begins to look even better since AFAIK they haven't had any failures.
 

bizzle

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No they won't. They can't do that and the first try to do so will result in more lawsuits than even Dieselgate....

We owners are also an aggrieved party as we were sold a car supposed to be legal and now it's not, so...we were duped. CARBs problem is with VW, not with us and they cannot 'transfer' that harm to any individual owner.
California already blocked registration for people who didn't go in for the 2306 recall.
 

dslman

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Location
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1998 Jetta, 2000 GOLF, 2013 Touareg, 2015 Q5
No they won't. They can't do that and the first try to do so will result in more lawsuits than even Dieselgate....
We owners are also an aggrieved party as we were sold a car supposed to be legal and now it's not, so...we were duped. CARBs problem is with VW, not with us and they cannot 'transfer' that harm to any individual owner.
You won't actually be forced to sell your car back, but what good will your car be if you can't drive it due to blocked Registration?
Blocking Registration for not doing a recall will depend on which state you live in, (California probably invented it)
If no fix, California will tag TDI vin #s as ILLEGAL because they don't meet CARB Emission standards & block registrations to those VIN#'s.
Sure you can sue, but depending on how many miles your car has on it, you may get more money just letting VW buy it back, it depends on how the details of the buyback $$ work out in June.

Personally, I don't think they have a full fix for GEN1 cars BUT... CARB/EPA may agree to a compromise where they'll approve a lesser fix which lowers the cars NOx emissions, (but still not enough to meet their ridiculous limit) then grandfather them all because in reality the actual impact of Nox Pollution from 325 thousand GEN1 cars in comparison with 253 Million other cars in USA is so tiny it's barely measurable.

There are 253 Millions vehicles Registered in USA.
325 Thousand GEN1 TDI's is less than 1.2846%

AND, VW quit making GEN1 TDI's in 2014, so their numbers drop lower & lower each day as there are 100's of wrecked and TOTALED cars every day.

A search of Salvage Auctions for WRECKED GEN1 TDI's shows many pages long, hundreds a day wrecked and totaled:

http://www.salvageautosauction.com/quick_search/TDI (May have to give it awhile to load)
 
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Jeta Life

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I'd personally simply want to keep my car... However it really depends on how things go with the court date June 21st. I'm really curious how they plan to fix our cars or even if there is a fix. As it's been rehashed 2,000 times in this thread, it's not going to be easy to retrofit our cars for SCR. And since I live in a CARB state I might be forced into a buyback if there's no fix.
If the fix isn't one I'd be happy with I have a few ideas for replacements already. As of right now I'm prepping for the worst, though I'm hopeful for a outcome where I may be able to keep the car.
I too live in a CARB state. I doubt the Gen 1s can be fixed, it would be a shocker. Preparing for and test driving is not fun, but I too am preparing. Sure hope we are allowed to just keep the cars. If not, depending on the buyback check it will either be a beater or a CPO.

It's funny to me how people say we're over polluting. Yes it's a concern in Europe in small congested cities where there are millions of diesels in small countries, but here in the states with about 1/2 million TDIs scattered over 50 states in such huge landscapes you wonder.

It's not the end of the world even if we have to give up these unicorns. They're not the "be all and end all" of cars. Saving $500 a year on fuel for me got wiped away by my DPF job. But then the $1000 goodwill helped and now a mention of $5000 + pre scandal KBB could buy me a nice car out there, a middle aged beater car that may be behind in a few years of repairs.

Heard from somebody yesterday that Feinberg is usually very generous when it comes to giving away other people's money. Buying all these TDIs out and issuing checks won't be cheap.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Virginia
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'13 Jetta TDI
Yeah I know, and I know that's why they sell for so much money. But they start at about $35k for a 4x4. That's just insane. Because the resale value is so high, you're better off just buying new, but then I'm back to the $35k thing.
I test drove one and the interior was cheap plastic everywhere. Felt like an $18k vehicle sitting in it. I want a decent vehicle to replace my Passat but I'm not finding anything that 1. I like OR 2. Is affordable.
Check out a Sierra SLE. It's more roomy than a Tacoma, the interior is nice (nicer than my Jetta, at least), the fuel economy is pretty much comparable to a Tacoma, greater payload and capacity, good resale value, and once you factor in the $10k+ off MSRP...it's cheaper than a similarly equipped Tacoma.

Edit: I.e. Sierra SLE Z71 vs. Tacoma TRD Off-Road.
 
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dslman

Veteran Member
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San Diego
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... in reality the actual impact of Nox Pollution from 325 thousand GEN1 cars in comparison with 253 Million other cars in USA is so tiny it's barely measurable.
can you please stop repeating this incorrect information?
253,000,000 Cars in USA
SOURCE
325,000 GENERATION 1 TDIs
Quote: But it looks like there’s no hope for the roughly 300,000 first generation cars.
SOURCE1
QUOTE:
There has been a lot of talk that the exceedances are 10 to 40 times but there are specific characteristics as to when they’re very high and when they’re very low,” Young said. “It’s not like they’re 10 to 40 times all the time.”
SOURCE3
Actual Impact of TDI’s so called 40X over limit NOx on state of California (Example)
Quote: ...if we’re changing those nitrogen oxide inputs by this slight a degree … you would never notice it in ozone,” said atmospheric scientist Kent Hoekman, of the Desert Research Institute in Nevada. Because nitrogen oxides are spewed into California’s air at a rate of about 2,106 tons a day from all sources, “even if it’s exceeding the standard by 40 times, that amounts to about 0.4% increase of this total inventory
SOURCE3


SO, because of all these 40X Over polluting VW TDI's (OMG) it amounts to a whopping 0.4% increase in California total inventory of NOx Pollution.

Just as I said, barely measurable.

I believe the media has blown the whole thing so far out of proportion people believe the sky is falling & their families are dying all because of Cheating VW TDI's

It's all Sensationalism Bull $hit.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The media couldn't function without sensationalism. It shocks me how stupid some people are. Even people who have achieved higher education seem to have difficulty looking at things objectively.
 

kydsid

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Texas
TDI
2012 Passat
The media couldn't function without sensationalism. It shocks me how stupid some people are. Even people who have achieved higher education seem to have difficulty looking at things objectively.

Objectively as in they still willfully commited fraud at a grand scale and continued to do so even after being caught because they thought the penalty for breaking our laws would be minimal? I objectivley look at that and say we have no choice but to make an example of them with the full force of law. Dont care what the law is they broke and I dont care what effect the vehicles have on the environment. Allowing a conpany to do what they did in the manner they did without extra ordinary punishment will undermine all Federal regulartory and law enforcement.
 

rte2MA

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Location
Massachusetts
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2011 Golf TDI
You won't find me in a Prius, EVER. Too small, too boring, too.. BLAH :p
I have been eyeing up the Subaru Forrester... I'll test drive one and see what I think soon.
Otherwise I may just rock another VW. I'll defiantly go that route if they offer decent incentives to do so.
Looks like VW has another very interesting engine coming out soon that may fit the bill for those that want maximum mpg:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/53131/
I was drawn to the Forrester until I spent a day driving around in a brand new one (as a passenger). It left me underwhelmed somehow - just didn't grab me.
That new VW engine looks interesting. Nice low-end torque for sure. I'm adding that to my list of things I'd like if it materializes in a hatchback. I'm also waiting for the Kia Trail'ster to come around ... http://www.caranddriver.com/news/kia-trailster-concept-photos-and-info-news. I'm fine with that boxy jeep-ish look.
I love the size of my Golf - I can keep a bike in the back and still park it on city streets. I'm thinking a loaded Kia Soul might work for me. I'll miss TDI torque + MPGs but that's gonna go away no matter what under $30k. I wish I could get a TSI Golf with a stick in an upper trim level. I guess that's called a GTI. We'll see what sort of deals are in the works. It seems nuts to be cross-shopping a GTI with a Kia Soul ... right!?
 
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