Gen II 3.0 Group2.0 speculation

Dr Chill

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If they bought the PC class back, repaired them as best they could and resold them, it might be cheaper than the repairs generated over the course of a 120,000 mile warranty. Plus the buyback cars that got resold would be out of warranty. From an accounting standpoint, it closes the door on the entire mess. Sure the PC class buyback would be expensive, but they would recoup a great deal of the initial expenditure on the resale. Then they are completely finished with dieselgate. I can't imagine how you budget for repairs extending into 2028 when you really have no idea what the annual warranty claims are going to cost. There were only 58000 gen 2 to start with, when you remove the SUV class and the unsold cars on standstill, there are probably only 30,000 cars left. If the fix impacts performance too negatively, it is not out of the realm of possibility to expect CARB make them offer a buyback option in addition to the compensation/ repair/ extended warranty option.

This is very wishful thinking, but the buyback costs as laid out in the settlement for the PC cars far exceeds their current market value and warranty repairs costs will be low comparatively speaking. Since the Gen 2 SUV's got an approved fix, the PC's should be coming shortly.
 

MBQ

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Gen1 3.0L towell has not been thrown in, exactly like they did with the 2.0L TDI engines they focused on fixing the easiest ones first and hardest ones last.. And like the Gen1 2.0L engines most everyone with a Gen1 3.0L TDI took the sweet buyback deal anyhow.

In the court documents they were not even scheduled to submit a fix for review until AFTER the Gen2 3.0L Fixes were resolved... and again like the 2.0L Scandal, the people who need the Gen1 fixes the most are VW themselves, so they can start emptying fields of perfectly fine buybacks that are only waiting for a fix to be dumped back on the market.
I was talking about whether VW thought they could do an ECR on the 3.0L gen1. If no, what's the mechanical/technical difference that made them think they could do an ECR on gen2 but not on gen1. If yes, why did they offer a buyback for gen1.
 

Mythdoc

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I was talking about whether VW thought they could do an ECR on the 3.0L gen1. If no, what's the mechanical/technical difference that made them think they could do an ECR on gen2 but not on gen1. If yes, why did they offer a buyback for gen1.

Both the engine and the emissions system are a previous design in the pre-2013 models.
 

Mythdoc

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^^ok, lol, not technical enough. I am not able to speak to the engineering specifics. There is a PowerPoint circulating that dates from when the gen 2 engine was released. It is a cleaner, more efficient diesel engine than what it replaced. Meanwhile, the emissions system was also reengineered around better recirculation of exhaust gases. The 2016 models use adblue at a much more normal rate than the earlier models, needing refills at around 7000 miles for the Touareg as opposed to the ridiculous, 15000 miles rate as older models. VW was already pulling the engines towards compliance, probably as they were already being investigated by the EPA.

This is why you see the 15’s and 16 Touareg and Cayenne models only needing a software replacement as opposed to a hardware/software replacement.

Also, I suspect that where one thinks one sees a compromise between opposing interests, there is actually mutual agreement. I suspect VW hoped that all the 3.0 engines would be blessed by the EPA, but as the negotiations moved towards a new administration taking over, both sides wanted an agreement in place to avoid uncertainty. The parties split the difference on agreeing that there would be a buyback on gen 1mand a fix on gen 2.
 

911c4fan

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Makes senses, but...

^^ok, lol, not technical enough. I am not able to speak to the engineering specifics. There is a PowerPoint circulating that dates from when the gen 2 engine was released. It is a cleaner, more efficient diesel engine than what it replaced. Meanwhile, the emissions system was also reengineered around better recirculation of exhaust gases. The 2016 models use adblue at a much more normal rate than the earlier models, needing refills at around 7000 miles for the Touareg as opposed to the ridiculous, 15000 miles rate as older models. VW was already pulling the engines towards compliance, probably as they were already being investigated by the EPA.

This is why you see the 15’s and 16 Touareg and Cayenne models only needing a software replacement as opposed to a hardware/software replacement.

Also, I suspect that where one thinks one sees a compromise between opposing interests, there is actually mutual agreement. I suspect VW hoped that all the 3.0 engines would be blessed by the EPA, but as the negotiations moved towards a new administration taking over, both sides wanted an agreement in place to avoid uncertainty. The parties split the difference on agreeing that there would be a buyback on gen 1mand a fix on gen 2.
The concept that they were that close to a fix makes sense, but then why was the first proposed fix rejected? That was just this past summer for the Gen II, right? IF the fix was minor and easily achieved with the software flash, it must have been "proven" subsequent to their first unsuccessful attempt to obtain CARB approval this summer. Obviously, they would have submitted the best solution that they currently possessed. So although it makes sense to assume they can do it because they have a fix for the SUV, it doesn't follow necessarily that it is matter of fact or simple as they would have received approval the first time around. The rejection indicated the proposed fix was too large a deviation in what was promised to the consumer.
 

nayr

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I was talking about whether VW thought they could do an ECR on the 3.0L gen1. If no, what's the mechanical/technical difference that made them think they could do an ECR on gen2 but not on gen1. If yes, why did they offer a buyback for gen1.
They have entirely different engines and transmissions in a gen1 vs a gen2, 220hp w/6spd vs 240hp w/8spd..

The Gen1 simply cheated more, Gen2 cheated less.. Gen2 3.0L was capable meeting original certifications, no other TDI could.. so it avoided the buyback, pretty simple.. Gen1 fix will be a best compromise but will not be required to meet the standards they cheated on when they were originally certified.

@911c4fan, The fix was not rejected, it was just approved.. the only fix thats been rejected to date has been the 2.0L Passat 6MT, all others were approved.
 

MBQ

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They have entirely different engines and transmissions in a gen1 vs a gen2, 220hp w/6spd vs 240hp w/8spd..

The Gen1 simply cheated more, Gen2 cheated less.. Gen2 3.0L was capable meeting original certifications, no other TDI could.. so it avoided the buyback, pretty simple.. Gen1 fix will be a best compromise but will not be required to meet the standards they cheated on when they were originally certified.

@911c4fan, The fix was not rejected, it was just approved.. the only fix thats been rejected to date has been the 2.0L Passat 6MT, all others were approved.
{facepalm}
 

911c4fan

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July 2016 Autoweek :Carb rejects fix for 3.0 liter diesels

{facepalm}
If only the 2. Liter has been previously rejected, what is this article about? It specially points out that VW fully expected the software only fix to remedy the issue and it did not.

The recent approval on the 23rd of October for the SUV class is therefore the second attempt at certification as will be the December 20th decision for the PC class. I have heard that decision may be out as early as 10/17/2017 from Audi, but those leaked ideas have been wrong more than they have been right. Certainly, an earlier response than the 11/20/2017 date cited in the settlement would make one lean toward an approved fix decision.

In any event, a simple google of "CARB rejects VW 3 liter fix" will give you some information as to the reasoning behind the first rejection...
 
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nayr

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You mean the BS articles dated July 2016, nearly a year before the 3.0L Settlement was even approved by the courts.. Why would Audi be submitting fixes for approval when the requirements for approval were not approved until May 2017 and they were never scheduled to submit a fix for approval at any time in 2016.. If anything it looks like CARB/EPA rejected a very early hail mary to prevent the 3.0L Gen2s from even going to settlement.. but none of that matters, as by the time the settlement was agreed upon VW/Audi had a Gen2 3.0L Fix in hand that was approved by CARB & EPA on and before the outlined deadlines.. if it had been rejected at any point we'd all be looking at deadline extensions right now.

Gen2.2 SUV does not require any hardware at all, it is all software.. apparently Gen2.1 need the SCR Cat out of a newer model year to be installed, bfd.
 
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nayr

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{facepalm}
Okay my bad, the 8spd came in 2011.. but the 3.0L TDI is a new redesigned engine from 2013 onwards and contain different emissions components, for example a Gen2 has a completely different EGR than a Gen1 so it can warm up faster and get emissions under control quicker from a cold start... It also has less timing chains, weighs less, has a higher fuel pressure and makes more power.. Yes Gen1's had SCR systems from the onset, but its clear there are enough changes that a Gen1 3.0L TDI does not have the same powertrain as a Gen2 3.0L TDI, so there could be numerous technical reasons the Gen1's were too hard to bring to original certifications.
 
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911c4fan

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"...by the time the settlement was agreed upon VW/Audi had a Gen2 3.0L Fix in hand that was approved by CARB & EPA on and before the outlined deadlines.. if it had been rejected at any point we'd all be looking at deadline extensions right now."

We haven't even reached the 12/20/2017 approval deadline yet, why would we be looking at extensions. If the fix is in hand, why didn't they just approve the pc class in the letter approval of 10/23/2017?
 

nayr

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I was referring to the SUV (2.1 & 2.2) fixes, deadline for 2.2 was met.. and deadline for 2.1 was beaten by a couple weeks.. it was originally due next week but it was likely LESS work for em to just approve both with one swoop.

Approval process is entirely in the hands of CARB/EPA, not Volkswagen/Audi.. the deadline is for CARB/EPA to say YAY/NAY.. Why didnt they say YAY for PC's with the SUV's? **** if I know, probably because they had nearly 2 more months and they are a bunch of bureaucrats with zero incentive to have work done before any deadlines.

If the 3.0L Gen2 fix was rejected, the SUV's would had already missed the first deadline.. but they didnt, so just wait for yours..
 
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tdiesling

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Insert cricket noise here. Kind of quiet. Less then a month till the PC deadline and no updates? I would really like to get this done and over with.
 
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nayr

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With the 3.0L SUV they had 2 deadlines close together, so they released em together at the earlier deadline of the two.

There are no other deadlines between now and the 3.0L PC deadline, so there is absolutely no reason to expect any news before the December deadline.
 

saggii

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From my knowledge (please correct or add references if I'm wrong), the tank size is smaller in 2 PC - 4.5 gallon vs 7 gallon (what is required to keep the original certification). So the fix would involve, as some other members have suggested, a change in maintenance schedule so that the Adblue would be needed to refilled more often and of course the software fix.
 

bhuizer

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From my knowledge (please correct or add references if I'm wrong), the tank size is smaller in 2 PC - 4.5 gallon vs 7 gallon (what is required to keep the original certification). So the fix would involve, as some other members have suggested, a change in maintenance schedule so that the Adblue would be needed to refilled more often and of course the software fix.
In that case, they will do the same with the PC group as the 2.1 and 2.2. Free Adblue fills at the dealers between service intervals.
 

saggii

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Why this waiting then? EPA/CARB should conclude this as soon as possible.
 

Dr Chill

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In that case, they will do the same with the PC group as the 2.1 and 2.2. Free Adblue fills at the dealers between service intervals.
I hope that the EPA won't find needing to take a trip to the dealer every 2500 miles to be acceptable.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 

bhuizer

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From what is being described by 3.0 Gen-2.1 owners, it appears the EPA isn't holding VGA accountable to the "reduced performance" requirements. So I think anything is possible at this point. Though, I wouldn't mind a buyback on our Q5.
 

Mythdoc

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From my knowledge (please correct or add references if I'm wrong), the tank size is smaller in 2 PC - 4.5 gallon vs 7 gallon (what is required to keep the original certification). So the fix would involve, as some other members have suggested, a change in maintenance schedule so that the Adblue would be needed to refilled more often and of course the software fix.

The Q5 and Q7 both have the same size (23 liter) tanks, which I easily found with a simple google search. So, if anything, it will need filling less often due to the lighter weight of the vehicle.

But I have to ask: why would you speculate and ask someone else to prove you wrong, rather than take a 1 minute step to give the correct info?
 

Burnt

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My A7 has a 5 gal tank for Adblue. My first Adblue lasted less than 6k miles. Couldn't imagine it using 40% more as some people stated.
 

saggii

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But I have to ask: why would you speculate and ask someone else to prove you wrong, rather than take a 1 minute step to give the correct info?
Because I was not sure about q5 or q7 design and the information that I have read was conflicting. I could confirm my car's (A6) capacity by reading the manual.
 

Q5TDI

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Just realized the 2 PC Decision Date, December 20, 2017, falls on a Sunday. Will the EPA/CARB be working over the weekend?

EDIT- Was working off the wrong lunar calendar--December 20 is indeed a Wednesday. Sorry!
 
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psd1

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Just realized the 2 PC Decision Date, December 20, 2017, falls on a Sunday. Will the EPA/CARB be working over the weekend? Brilliant!
May want to recheck your calendar! :)
 
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