Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

Personne

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Dec 23, 2010
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'11 Golf Wagon DSG
Hey guys

New VW owner here (well, in about a week, that is).

With some experience in the HVAC world, I can tell you that there are solutions out there for this "thing". It's actually a pretty common concern among cold air system designers. The last thing you want to do is freeze-up the coil in a medium to large AC system so, the dynamics are very well understood and can easily be extrapolated here IMHO.

The very first thing to do is to sample the intake. You need accurate humidity, temp and air flow monitoring. 'Sounds complicated but the electronic sensors today are rugged and reliable enough for an automotive application. Then you need an electronic card to work out the enthalpy of the system. Basically, you want this little electronic brain to tell you when you are approaching The Danger Zone.

Then you have several options at your disposal to fend-off the threat; you can instruct a butterfly (flap) valve to modulate or even shut-off the exterior air inflow. You can install a reversing valve on the intercooling heatpump to transform the intercooler into an interwarmer to de-ice the sytem. Or, even simpler, to stop the compressor and gas exchange so the coil is no longer cold enough to de-humidify the air (read: produce condensation).

You can also start a micro-pump to drain the condensate and prevent accumulation. This pump should be able to handle thick petroleum residue too. If you don't want to go through all this, you can simply open up a contact and kill the turbo untill the conditions are safe.

From what I have read in this thread, I believe that there are only very specific temperature swings combined with high humidity atmospheres that could result in a potentially harmful incident. But then the resulting damage can be very extensive.

So it becomes a formula like the one from Fight Club: "If (A+B) X n where n is the number of incidents = C and C is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
 

Jack Frost

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Nov 30, 2007
Location
Rural Manitoba
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2009 Clean Diesel
MY 2010 Jetta TDI got towed into Autohaus VW in Winnipeg again today. 2nd time in a month. Same problem, frozen intercooler.
hmmmm .... I just looked at the hourly weather obs for winnipeg.

The relative humidity has not every been less than 91% and the highest was 98%. Precipitation was recorded for every single hour either been light snow or ice crystals.

Ideal conditions for icing.
 

Dpthomas

Active member
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Jan 9, 2011
Location
SE Pennsylvania
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI Sport
Hey guys

New VW owner here (well, in about a week, that is).

With some experience in the HVAC world, I can tell you that there are solutions out there for this "thing". It's actually a pretty common concern among cold air system designers. The last thing you want to do is freeze-up the coil in a medium to large AC system so, the dynamics are very well understood and can easily be extrapolated here IMHO.

The very first thing to do is to sample the intake. You need accurate humidity, temp and air flow monitoring. 'Sounds complicated but the electronic sensors today are rugged and reliable enough for an automotive application. Then you need an electronic card to work out the enthalpy of the system. Basically, you want this little electronic brain to tell you when you are approaching The Danger Zone.

Then you have several options at your disposal to fend-off the threat; you can instruct a butterfly (flap) valve to modulate or even shut-off the exterior air inflow. You can install a reversing valve on the intercooling heatpump to transform the intercooler into an interwarmer to de-ice the sytem. Or, even simpler, to stop the compressor and gas exchange so the coil is no longer cold enough to de-humidify the air (read: produce condensation).

You can also start a micro-pump to drain the condensate and prevent accumulation. This pump should be able to handle thick petroleum residue too. If you don't want to go through all this, you can simply open up a contact and kill the turbo untill the conditions are safe.

From what I have read in this thread, I believe that there are only very specific temperature swings combined with high humidity atmospheres that could result in a potentially harmful incident. But then the resulting damage can be very extensive.

So it becomes a formula like the one from Fight Club: "If (A+B) X n where n is the number of incidents = C and C is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
I'm not an engineer, but my experience with commercial HVAC as a building owner and manager makes this hypothesis ring true. VW looking for a solution? Sounds like The seeds of one here.
 

MonsterTDI09

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I wonder if blocking part of I/C would help in the big temperatures swing. Try to keep down condensation down. Then the hot air from the compressor can evaporate the little water is there.
 

MayorDJQ

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I dunno, I think having to watch the weather report and planning driving based on Relative Humidity is taking things to the extreme. I drove my '09 through 2 New England winters with no problems.

I'm not sure how ambient air is the issue here. If intake air is the problem, why doesn't this problem occur on BEWs, BRMs, ALHs, AHUs, etc? They're all intercooled TDs. The only new factor for the CRs is the low-pressure EGR.

I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer, just trying to think logically.
 

Jack Frost

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Location
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No one is disputing that moisture condensing inside the intercooler is the problem. I would not say that high humidity causes the problem, but I believe it can be a factor combined with other factors (such as the low pressure EGR) that, when combined, can cause the problem that some are experiencing.

The humid conditions experienced in Winnipeg are unusual. Icing conditions are so good in Winnipeg today that I believe that the air traffic controllers are required to advise piston power aircraft that icing conditions may clog their carbureuters (if they have them).
 

MayorDJQ

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I was thinking that carb icing may be similar to this issue. At least airplanes have a mechanism to deal carb icing.

Ice is obviously a winter problem.....but is water building up in the IC plumbing throughout the year? Whenever fog forms on a cool spring/fall evening, does that mean water is condensing in my intercooler while the car is parked?
 

Jack Frost

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Location
Rural Manitoba
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Ice is obviously a winter problem.....but is water building up in the IC plumbing throughout the year? Whenever fog forms on a cool spring/fall evening, does that mean water is condensing in my intercooler while the car is parked?
It could be that water is condensing inside our IC throughout the year whenever the conditions are right (one of them being high ambient humidity). It seems from previous posts that most that have taken off the IC hose has reported a little bit of water and oil but not enough to be worried about. So perhaps the water accumulates sometimes, and in between, it evaporates again. Or conversely, it could be that it just accumulates slowly. No one knows.

Why do some have problems and most don't? I think that driving style is causing low pressure EGR to dump excessive moisture into the hot side of the IC, and combined with extensive driving in high humidity conditions, is causing water is build up faster than it can be removed.

It has nothing to do with how one park's one car. There isn't enough moisture inside an IC under the most moist of conditions to cause a problem. Neither can this problem be solved by taking air from inside the engine compartment. From what I have read, it seems to have everything to do with how often that low pressure EGR valve operates.

BTW, perhaps one solution to this would be similar to the solution that pilots use to de-ice their carbs. Perhaps if we should install a nice big heater coil on the IC where the water accumulates. Turn it on, and anything inside would boil away. A frost-heater for IC's !:rolleyes:
 

flylow2

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When a hydrocarbon is burned, the primary combustion products are CO2 and water. When you employ exhaust gas recycle, compress it along with fresh air that may be close to dew point and then cool it, the control of condensation may be pretty tricky. The EGR system of the CR diesels is completely different from earlier TDIs. My guess is the solution will come in the form of a modified control algorithm that needs to balance the emissions needs along with the operational need of avoiding ice blockages.

What is curious about this phenomenom is that the summer time does not seem to produce problems as this is when the fresh air water content is the highest. Condensation downstream of the turbo should be greater in these conditions. I guess this condensate continually gets blown into the intake in such a way that there are no issues where in the winter time, it freezes before being stuffed into the engine. This either blocks the air charge completely while running or melts later to cause massive water ingestion potentially resulting in hydrolock.

I am garaged at above freezing temperatures at night and my car sits in below freezing conditions during the day. My commute is 30 miles of 80% highway, well below freezing in the morning, and, so far, I have not had a problem.
 

ziggy55

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Montreal, QC
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2010 Golf TDI
I hope that it does not involve modifying the software for the lp egr, as this would require probably some proof/recertification to/from the government agencies that emissions will not be affetced. The solution would be a long way from today if thats the case. Again the blame is on VW for poor long term testing. I figure they didn't have this problem in Europe with no lp egr, so they figured what can go wrong by adding an lp egr, well now they know. I bet you this forum and its Gurus will probably have a solution before VW does.
 

Jack Frost

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What is curious about this phenomenom is that the summer time does not seem to produce problems as this is when the fresh air water content is the highest.
I used to be a meteorologist. The reason why this phenomenom does not produce problems in the summer is that at summer time temperatures, the air has a much greater capacity to carry large amounts of water. In a meteologist terms, this is because there is a large spread between the ambient temperature and the dewpoint . A degree or two drop in temperature usually does not bring about precipitation.

At the colder tempertures, the air has very little ability to carry moisture. Its dew point is never very far away from the ambient temperature and yet .... the relative humidity can still be very low. However drop the temperature of cold air a degree or two - and all of a sudden - what was 50% relative humidity now become 100%. :eek: That would never happen at the warmer temperatures of summer.

Now think about these low pressure EGR's (LPEGR). You start pumping steamy exhaust into the intercooler during summer, the warm intake air has a lot of capacity to keep it dissolved in the vapour form. No condensation takes place because there is a large spread between the dew point and the air temperature. Thus if the intercooler raises the (an already raised) dewpoint through compression, it is not likely the dewpoint has reached the ambient temperature and no condensation takes place. If any did, it would be quickly revapourated again when conditions inside the intercooler are drier.

At extremely cold temperatures, there is very little moisture in the air anyways so moisture accumulation is not an issue.

However at temperatures in between - say about -15 C to -5 C - are the ideal conditions for icing of any kind because this is where air has a good capacity to hold a reasonable amount of moisture but will drop it a any kind of drop in temperature. That is also the ideal temperature range for snow formation.

The temperatures and humidity conditions in Winnipeg during which kenford experienced his second case of frozen intercooler were perfect for this kind of problem. I would like VW to explain more fully what driving styles encourage the operation of the LPEGR. That way, we can adjust the way we drive when weather conditions put our technology at risk.

The LPEGR was critical to VW in achieving their BIN5 certification so I don't see them changing how the LPEGR works. However, I think they should look at how the aviation industry resolved similar problems with carbs and air foils. Boil it off where it accumulates - simple!
 

soldierguy

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California
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'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
I checked my intercooler tubes this morning, since I had a cold-start issue once. The start issue was just like others have described...fired right up then it immediately died, followed by not cranking over at all, followed by it not starting (but cranking), then rough running for about 30-45 seconds once it did start (it sounded and felt very much like it was running on 3 cylinders). The twist on mine was that the car had been in a mild, high humidity climate (CA coast), then put on a trailer for a ride to Colorado. In trying to pull it off the trailer, that's when I experienced the starting issue. Temp when I tried to start was about 40 degrees F, but the car had been exposed to temps as low as 16 degrees earlier in the day, and lots of wind chill from riding on the trailer.

So when I checked mine this morning, there was very little goop. Honestly, I've blown more snot out of my nose when sick...not a nice visual, but that's what popped into my mind. I cleaned out what goop was there and went on my way.

So I'm not totally convinced that my start issue was intercooler icing, although it is likely. I'm thinking that it could have been icing, or it could have been the rough ride on the trailer somehow jiggling air into the fuel lines.
 

Personne

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The temperatures and humidity conditions in Winnipeg during which kenford experienced his second case of frozen intercooler were perfect for this kind of problem. I would like VW to explain more fully what driving styles encourage the operation of the LPEGR. That way, we can adjust the way we drive when weather conditions put our technology at risk.

The LPEGR was critical to VW in achieving their BIN5 certification so I don't see them changing how the LPEGR works. However, I think they should look at how the aviation industry resolved similar problems with carbs and air foils. Boil it off where it accumulates - simple!
Very good points, Mr Frost. The cert will absolutely be a factor.

IIRC the role of the IC is to bring back down the intake air temp which has been heated-up by turbocompression; and as you pointed out, heated air carries more moisture. by how much and what Δt is achieved from this intercooling is critical in the analysis.

The aviation analogy is quite appropriate here. We have all seen the contrails left by jet aiplanes. The unburned water vapor coming out of the turbines condensates in the cold air and leaves a familiar white track in the sky - an instantaneous cloud in fact.

I would be curious to find out if the EGR system actually monitors the pressurized turbine output to determine if additional intercooling is in fact required or necessary when driving in ambient 10°F temp (or below). And there has to be some sort of frostat - frost-guard thermostat - already in place to protect the intercoil.
 

MonsterTDI09

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Very good points, Mr Frost. The cert will absolutely be a factor.

IIRC the role of the IC is to bring back down the intake air temp which has been heated-up by turbocompression; and as you pointed out, heated air carries more moisture. by how much and what Δt is achieved from this intercooling is critical in the analysis.

The aviation analogy is quite appropriate here. We have all seen the contrails left by jet aiplanes. The unburned water vapor coming out of the turbines condensates in the cold air and leaves a familiar white track in the sky - an instantaneous cloud in fact.

I would be curious to find out if the EGR system actually monitors the pressurized turbine output to determine if additional intercooling is in fact required or necessary when driving in ambient 10°F temp (or below). And there has to be some sort of frostat - frost-guard thermostat - already in place to protect the intercoil.


It should monitors both pressure and temperature.Using lovers to control I/C temperature that would not be a cheap fix.
 

bruce846

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I was thinking that carb icing may be similar to this issue. At least airplanes have a mechanism to deal carb icing.

Ice is obviously a winter problem.....but is water building up in the IC plumbing throughout the year? Whenever fog forms on a cool spring/fall evening, does that mean water is condensing in my intercooler while the car is parked?
Carb icing went the way of the buggy whip with the introduction of fuel injection in piston engine airplanes... too bad this won't solve our problem.
 

MayorDJQ

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Dec 4, 2001
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Williamstown, Mass
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'10 Golf 2dr 6m, sold.
Carb icing went the way of the buggy whip with the introduction of fuel injection in piston engine airplanes... too bad this won't solve our problem.
Since a fuel injected engine doesn't have a carburetor, you're right.

But there are still planes out there with carburetors.
 

Ski in NC

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Fix might be as simple as a reflash to cut back low pressure egr flow rate when intake air temp is detected below freezing.

Is NOx that big a deal in the winter anyhow?

Another fix would be to command vnt actuator to reduce boost with sub freezing IAT. This would reduce torque and make the car sluggish, though.
 

tcp_ip_dude

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True, but most people don't run their lawnmowers at high altitude.
What's your point? Other than magneto ignition, I see very little relationship to the single engine aircraft 'Flylow2' refers to and "lawnmowers".

And by the way, the threat of 'Carb Icing' is at low altitude (pattern altitude), in preparation for landing when you reduce power, the venturi effect caused by closing the throttle creates vacuum in the intake manifold and therefore a drop in temperature, that, coupled with the evaporative cooling effect of gasoline in the throttle body, can quickly form ice (in seconds).
 
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Jack Frost

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Whether airplanes use carb heat anymore is not the issue. The phenomena is still there. That is when air moves to a region of colder temperature and/or differing pressure, its ability to hold moisture is reduced. Regardless if that region is a venturi of a carbaretur or a diesel intercooler, if that air is already moist, water or ice may precipitate.

I like simple solutions. Just put a flapper valve at the bottom end of the intercooler's cold side, which when opened, allows whatever accumulates to blow out. Let it have a good sneeze.
 
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MayorDJQ

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What's your point? Other than magneto ignition, I see very little relationship to the single engine aircraft 'Flylow2' refers to and "lawnmowers".
My initial comment was simply that airplanes have a mechanism to deal with carb icing after someone else made a comparison to aviation & icing.

I guess I misinterpreted the "non-complex singles" to mean "non-complex" engines, not single engine non-complex airplanes.
 

flylow2

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My initial comment was simply that airplanes have a mechanism to deal with carb icing after someone else made a comparison to aviation & icing.

I guess I misinterpreted the "non-complex singles" to mean "non-complex" engines, not single engine non-complex airplanes.
Definitely off topic but yes.... I meant non-complex airplane meaning fixed gear, fixed prop, and generally lower in performance (speed, useful load, climb capability). I now sort of understand the lawn mower comment.

On topic - it would seem to me a good approach to solving the problem would be to somehow control temperature at the outlet of the intercooler, as suggested, or utilize some other heat input (carb heat concept) to avoid freezing. Of course, warm up phase probably presents some significant challenges when combined with emisison requirements.

As with any complex systems, competing needs result in compromises in many areas. The trick is to find the optimum balance. This often requires significant field experience to achieve the perfect tune of all of these parameters. This is what VW does with all of the reflashes. My guess is they will solve this problem eventually with parameter manipulation and will only change hardware as a last resort.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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I wonder if the EGR duty cycles driven by the Jetta/Golf non-urea emissions systems make this more prone to occur. Said another way, I wonder if the urea-treated Passat will have the same problem.
 

kenford

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Jul 7, 2010
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Canada
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Cars still in the shop, 5 days now, and VW does not have a fix yet. Been advised to pick it up and if it freezes up again tow it back. Dealer indicates VW is working on a fix a should have something early next month. Not going to hold my breathe. Was told that it was going to be re-designed air intake ducting.
 

740GLE

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they said something would come out next month for me too, that was just before xmas.
 
I

ihatespeed

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one could make a sump out of pvc pipe at the outlet, bonus points for a water detection circuit and a cap to aid draining any water I'm picturing a 2.5" t with a close nipple and threaded cap in the down position.
 
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