Break-in Period

Hi all and TornadoRed:
My plan is to get a 2003 in AR or LA or MS, register it in my daughters name for a year she lives in the deep south. Then transfer it to NYS. I guess thats how you know you are obscessed. see that post obscessed post
my wife and kids think im stu-pid /images/graemlins/smile.gif
me and my bright ideas /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
My plan is to get a 2003 in AR or LA or MS, register it in my daughters name for a year she lives in the deep south. Then transfer it to NYS.

[/ QUOTE ]
Alan, the 2003 TDIs were all certified for 50 states. So if you can find a new 2003 anywhere, you can register it immediately in New York State.

I assumed you were talking about buying a 2004. The PDs are only certified for 45 states, and you can't register in New York til the car shows 7500 miles on the odometer. Thus my suggestion that you take a side trip through the Rocky Mountains.

thanks

What a great thread to have read one day before I pick up my 04 jetta tiptronic. So, instead of running out and starting the gasser 10 minutes before I have to go to work, worrying that I'm pushing too hard while it's warming up because I'm running late. I can now jump in take off like Batman. Woohoo! I think I'll start backing my car in the driveway pointed towards the street. Thanks to all who posted this very useful and enlightening information.

I 2nd that notion... awsome information here. I'll be picking up my 2004 Platinum Grey TDI Sport Edition (+ESP) on Wednesday! I'll be making a trip into the Rockies on the weekend... what a coincidence! /images/graemlins/cool.gif Thanks again for all the excellent info!

[ QUOTE ]
I 2nd that notion... awsome information here. I'll be picking up my 2004 Platinum Grey TDI Sport Edition (+ESP) on Wednesday! I'll be making a trip into the Rockies on the weekend... what a coincidence! /images/graemlins/cool.gif Thanks again for all the excellent info!

[/ QUOTE ]

Nocternal,

I picked mine up yesterday. 2004 TDI Sport, Platinum Grey, manual, ESP and side-curtain airbags. AWESOME CAR!

Cheers,
Wyley

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I disagree with the rpm recommendations in DB's break-in procedure. Please see my comments here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...&PHPSESSID=

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi
I was surprised to read these break in instructions in that it seems to suggest that for the life of the car you need to keep the revs above 2500 when cold and 3000 when warm. Have I read this right?
I drive at between 1500 to 2500 at all times without lugging it - I cant imagine going around at above 2500 and 3000. Since maximum torque is at 1900 rpm, wouldnt this be the point that gives maximum seating pressure on the rings regardless of what boost is applied by the turbo /images/graemlins/confused.gif?
I might have to change my habits!
Steven

[/ QUOTE ]

Rules that apply for the life of the car
[image]http://pics.tdiclub.com/members/drivbiwire/Pete's%20pictures/Temp%20indicator1.JPG[/image]
-When the engine is cold (below the first 3 white marks at the base of the temp gage) rev the engine to at least 2,500 rpms.
-When the engine is warmed up (above the first three white marks) Rev the engine to no less than 3,000 rpms.
The reason for this is to keep the turbo on boost, clear the VNT guide vanes and apply firm pressure to the rings for optimal sealing against blow-by gasses. The rings need the boost to seal since its a turbo charged engine, babying the engine is detrimental and will lead to issues with compression if done so for very long.

Do yourself a favor and don't drive your car like that. A TDI with a VNT will jam the vanes and in time kill the compression due to the lack of boost pressure and jammed rings.

The guide vanes need to move throughout their entire range, driving your car in that fashion is not allowing them to cycle and allowing an accumulation of soot to build up preventing the vanes from moving.

[image]http://pics.tdiclub.com/members/drivbiwire/VNT%20pictures/vtg-sequenz.gif[/image]

DB

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, these particular comments just arent accurate.

The comments from the quoted poster were correct - peak torque is the rpm that gives highest BMEP, so basically highest cylinder pressures. Above 2000rpm, boost pressure is basically independent of engine speed - it varies with throttle, not rpms. In fact, boost pressure goes DOWN with increasing engine speed, especially above 3000rpm. Also, flexing the throttle between full and zero (foot off the pedal) at any rpm will flex the vanes completely through their range of motion. Most drivers will have their VNT vanes fully flexed during normal use, as long as they use full throttle from time to time.

And sooting - for a given load, running at higher rpms (lesser percentage of full throttle) compared to lower rpms (greater percentage of full throttle) kills fuel efficiency, and increases intake sooting/clogging by upping the EGR rate.

The fact that compression increases up to 60,000 miles dows play a part in the overall efficiency of the motor.

Leakage past the rings in a new engine which eventually become matched to their respective bores will increase the overall efficiency of the motor.

New compression is around 475 psi cranking where an engine with around 30,000 miles is around 525psi meaning that a majority of the break occurs in the first 30,000 or so miles. Notice that the highest increase in fuel economy occurs within this mileage range. From 30,000 to 60,000 miles the compression continues to increase to around 550 psi cranking pressure with perhaps a slight improvement in that time.

The reason for revving the engine to 2500 is to increase the flow of gasses BUT there are several other factors you are not taking into consideration.

The VE series TDI's as well as the PD engines DO NOT make peak injection pressure below 2,000 rpms! The means driving at the lower rpms decreases your injection pressure, thus reducing the quality of the injection event. Peak pressure occurs at or around 3,000 rpm.

Revving the rpms to 2500 when shifting also increases the hydraulic heating of the fuel system, meaning you get warmer fuel faster reducing emissions as well as increasing the quality of the fuel injection event. Warm fuel (to a point) is needed to get the right viscosity for proper fuel delivery control.

Revving to 2500 rpms also increases the flow of oil within the engine. This increases the flow of oil under the pistons, increases volume through the oil the water heat exchanger...In other words you are decreasing the time to get the engine up to operating temperature.

Shifting at 2500 rpms also increases the piston bore speed meaning that you have higher compression temperatures to aid in auto ignition of the fuel due to decreases in thermal loss although this can be argued that its the higher fuel pressure improving the fuel injection event.

2,000 rpms also places ALL TDI's right at the surge line in terms of compressor surge on the turbo. For those that are chipped or ninjectored 2,000 rpms is one area that you have no business driving within for any period of time much less shifting AT 2000 rpm meaning you are alwasy on the verge of compressor surge/stall...KABOOM there goes the turbo!

Again when the engine is cold, shift at 2500
When the engine is warm, 3,000.

DB

Not to beat a horse that has been dead and answered for over a year...but I bought a 2001 Golf TDi with 13,400 miles on it. What can I do or continue to do to be sure that everything is okay? I want to make sure this engine is going to last the 500,000 miles I very well know they are capable of!

Thanks!

Sam

Use synthetic.

Think about installing a bypass oil filter.

Think about installing a better fuel filter.

Drive it.

Is there a better synthetic 5w-40 oil out there than Amsoil for a 2001 car?

They also sell (well, I do actually) bypass oil filters as well....

[ QUOTE ]
Remember that the tranny is liquid cooled using the same coolant as the engine, in fact the circuit is hooked up so that the transmission replaces the coolant heater circuit, thus the transmission helps to heat the engine when cold. It goes back to just letting the transmission ECU do it's thing.

DB

[/ QUOTE ]

WOAH! Stop...you mean it uses the red stuff to cool the trans too? Not like all the gassers I own that just have a seperate area in the radiator for trans fluid to flow through? You mean our transmissions are jacketed for water cooling??? How cool is that? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

In response to DB's comments:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...part=2&vc=1


***EDIT:I have to inform people of an error on my part. Read here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?C...=14&fpart=3

END EDIT***

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember that the tranny is liquid cooled using the same coolant as the engine, in fact the circuit is hooked up so that the transmission replaces the coolant heater circuit, thus the transmission helps to heat the engine when cold. It goes back to just letting the transmission ECU do it's thing.

DB

[/ QUOTE ]

WOAH! Stop...you mean it uses the red stuff to cool the trans too? Not like all the gassers I own that just have a seperate area in the radiator for trans fluid to flow through? You mean our transmissions are jacketed for water cooling??? How cool is that? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the automatic has coolant lines going to the transmission to cool the fluid. On the top of the transmission is a water to fluid heat exchanger. It operates in the same fashion as the oil to water heat exchanger for the engine oil sharing the same cooling system.

DB

That rocks!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, if ring seating took 60,000 miles, why does the factory recommend using 100% synthetic oil out of the box?? Seating would be much more rapid using conventional oil with more frequent oil changes (say, at 1,500 miles, 3,000 and then 5,000).

[/ QUOTE ]

Conventional oil must NOT be used in ANY A4 TDI under any circumstances. The temperatures of the top compression ring will coke the oil (220C well above ANY conventional oils threshold for heat) This will lead to jammed rings or deposits also leading to reduced compression or worse scoring of the cylinder bores.

A TDI does in fact take 60,000 miles to break in, how do I know? Simple I sampled about 30 TDI's over the course of 100,000 miles performing comrpression checks First with less than 500 mile on the odometer then at 5,000 and then every 10,000 miles there after until compression topped out at 550PSI. A random sampling of TDI's outside of this group also showed the same compression figures of 550PSI regardless of mileage when using 5w40 oils. (Note: 5w30 showed lower compression figures usually around 520 psi due to viscocsity differences thus decreasing sealing efficiency for the purpose of compression checks).

So yes it DOES take 60,000 miles to fully seat the rings in a TDI. Would you care to elaborate on why it is you feel that it does not?

PS Synthetic is NOT a super lubricant. It still lubricates in the same fashion as conventional oil using the same exact principles. What Synthetic oil DOES NOT have in common with conventional is that it does not break down as rapidly when exposed to heat. Synthetic also requires much higher temps ove longer periods of time to cause thinnning. Synthetic also has different heat absorbtion characteristics that result in better heat transfer to remove heat from within the motor. Synthetic oils due to the more extreme uses such as those carrying the CI-4 rating contain very high levels of additives, some of these additives improve the protection afforded the engine when the oil is run for longer durations such as in the case with extended drain intervals.

DB

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1.9L VE TDIs in the A4s are essentially identical to my A3 engine. At time of vehicle production, the manual never required synthetic oil, nor did any VW service bulletins. Later, a change was made to synthetic because it IS better. Just something to consider.

And btw, some synthetics (perhaps most?) DO have lower friction coefficients than conventional dino oils.

[ QUOTE ]
My 2001 Golf 5-speed manual says that the timing belt has to be changed every 40k miles. For BOTH transmissions. We know that's wrong, and so does the sticker in my engine compartment that says 60k.

What's my point? The manual isn't infallible and isn't the be-all-end-all.

Besides, I think that DallasTDi makes a good point... this advice enhances what is already in the manual. None of this advice directly contradicts anything in the manual, it just recommends additional procedures.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe. The sticker on my fuel filler door said "unleaded fuel only." /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I tore it off in case it ever became a point of confusion for any reason.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like i have been too easy on my TDI. My mileage is now at 65,000 KM and i have been WETT chipped since 6000 KM. I occasionally rev the engine out to over 4000 RPM's a few times a week but in general i baby the engine in the 2000-2500 RPM range. So far no measureable oil loss is happening between oil changes.
For the last week, i have been driving the car the way DBW suggests. It took a lot of effort as his way is a lot different than the way i am used to driving. At the same time the car feels livelier, since i have been doing it, maybe the VNT vanes are being freed up.
After reading this thread, DBW makes a lot of sense. The question now, should i switch my driving style to fit DBW's break-in schedule even though my car is already broken in and is chipped? Will the added boost of the WETT chip cause premature wear on the turbo, as the car will be on boost a lot more often?


[/ QUOTE ]

The way you were driving was fine. You dont have to change anything. Driving between 2000 and 2500rpm is not babying in the least, and if you get up to 4000rpm on full throttle regularly, there is no problem at all. Shifting at 3000rpm unecessarily is just going to increase fuel consumption and engine wear/noise.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that this engine if it was allowed by the ECU could safely reve to around 7,000 rpm with not ill effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think you could change the rpm limitation with vag-com?

TDiConvert

[/ QUOTE ]

Heheh. I take it this question is in jest? Even if you could get the engine up that far, it would be pointless - you couldnt make much power beyond ~5000rpm, and even then it would smoke like a steam locomotive.

And I wouldnt feel comfortable revving the engine that far with the stock equipment - valve assemblies/springs, etc. A lot more stress at 7krpm than the engine was designed for.

On a side note, I have over-revved the engine to an estimated ~6krpm or so by mis-shifting into 3rd instead of 5th. My engine still runs well. So, interesting, but MAN did I feel bad after I did that.

[ QUOTE ]
"cruise control at 65-70 mph for any length of time is really bad for my Golf TDi. Don't knwo wbout any of yours out there but for mine it's a disaster. If I run 40 miles on cruise control at constant highway speeds [2,200 rpms] when I exit the highway I blow huge clouds of smoke from every stop sign"
If this is the case, you'd best get your car to the shop pronto. There's something wrong with it.
Running your car to 3,000 rpm on every shift once the engine's warmed up won't hurt anything engine-wise, but it certainly will cause fuel economy to plummet.
We've run 2 A3 TDI's to 120,000 miles (yes, I know they don't have VNT's), shifting at 2,200 rpm, which keeps the engine right around its torque peak, and running 'em up to 4,000 at full throttle once in a while at a stop light.
It's a free country, of course, and everyone can operate their car as they please, but I won't sacrifice my mileage to run the engine that hard for no reason.
And does cylinder pressure vary directly with rpm? Don't boost and combustion temperature have a lot to do with that?
WFO at 2,000 will put a lot more pressure in the cylinder than foot-off-throttle at 4,600.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what Ive been saying.

Max BMEP occurs at or about peak torque, ~2000rpm and full throttle.

Boy am I glad I found this info, read up on the manual and saw "keep the engine speed low" so for the first 250km (140 miles) I've been babying her at around 2000rpm between shifts like I did with my Gas Jetta (traded that in on this one) so now I shift at around 2500 cold and 3500 at running temp.. thanx for the info!

Hey Guys,Im breaking in my b5 TDI just like the last 3 Ive had
Both feet flat on the floor!!!Just sold my A4 with 189K which survived 3 college girls driving it.Its funny when the big trucks come delivered from the factory there is no mention of breakin period,just hookup and go.Same way with cat marine engines and Westerbake gensets. Ihave 3900miles on the Passat including 2 roundtrips to Fla,and no oil consumption .Have Fun!!!

Again when the engine is cold, shift at 2500
When the engine is warm, 3,000.
DB

Click to expand...

I have read this entire thread and both you and your opponents make plenty of good points, observations, and suggestions.

But I think you are going far out on the limb by saying 'shift at 2500-3000 rpm or you will need new turbo and possibly engine in 60k miles.'

While I am willing to believe your claims that shifting in the 2500-3000rpm range does not hurt the engines and they happilly take it for hundreds of thousands of kilometers (with the likely increased wear to clutch and decreased fuel economy), I do not believe that the reverse is true - namely that shifting at lower rpm is sure to destroy the turbo and the engine.

Lets think about it. There must be tens of thousands of A4 TDI and alike engines operating worldwide. How many of the owners actually know something about what is under the hood and/or read forums like this - 1 in a 1000 perhaps? Most drivers, gas or diesel, don't bother to check their tire pressure, and think that 'break-in' means burglary.

So statistically, most drivers don't follow any advice, during break-in and afterwards. Some of them like to rev up their engines and shift at 3500rpm. Others shift at 2500rpm. Still others upshift at 1700rpm and love their diesels for allowing it (in contrast to gas engines). I don't know what percentage of drivers falls into which group, but realistically there must be plenty in each of them.

Thus if your dire claims of assured grave powertrain harm for shifting below 2500-3000 were true, a large number of TDI vehicles worldwide would need new turbos and engines every 60k miles.

As far as I know this is not the case, and TDI engines and their turbos are known to last.

So those of you who rev up to 3000 rpm before every shift - have fun - I'm sure engines don't mind it.

Those of you who shift at 2000 rpm - relax - I'm sure your engines don't mind it too.

Rigid rules like 3000 rpm to shift, Atkins diet, or Prohibition seldom work or withstand the test of time - I vote for eating all food groups in moderation, drinking responsibly, and shifting between 1700-3500rpm as I please.

You do what you like, of course.

So statistically, most drivers don't follow any advice, during break-in and afterwards. Some of them like to rev up their engines and shift at 3500rpm. Others shift at 2500rpm. Still others upshift at 1700rpm and love their diesels for allowing it (in contrast to gas engines). I don't know what percentage of drivers falls into which group, but realistically there must be plenty in each of them.

Thus if your dire claims of assured grave powertrain harm for shifting below 2500-3000 were true, a large number of TDI vehicles worldwide would need new turbos and engines every 60k miles.

As far as I know this is not the case, and TDI engines and their turbos are known to last.

Click to expand...

I think 99.5% of TDIs roll out of the factory with the potential to go 300k miles, before internal engine work or turbo replacement.

But most of them probably don't, because of they way they are maintained. Or maybe because of the way they're driven.

I know a lot of turbos are replaced unnecessarily, because VW mechanics don't know how to diagnose boost problems. But a lot of turbos do fail -- and yet others don't, so it's not a design flaw.

DB is not saying that the failure to break in an engine properly will cause it to break at 60k miles. Only that the compression will not be as high, and the engine will not perform to expectations.

I do agree that DB seems quite knowledgable, And he probably has tested compression on quite a few engines.

The only part that confuses me is why this is practically considered law on this site on how you break-in the engine.
I find it hard to imagine that DB drove all these miles to do checks on all these engines, and how could anyone know exactly how all these people drove their cars for all those miles, or what type of fuel they used, what about the kind of oil? Did the car idle for long periods each day? I do agree that its good to give the engine a workout from time to time for any car. I know i do!

DB is not saying that the failure to break in an engine properly will cause it to break at 60k miles. Only that the compression will not be as high, and the engine will not perform to expectations.

Click to expand...

Well, allow me to quote DB from 'shifting points' thread:

Your freakin nuts! Driving a TDI with a VNT15 Turbo like that will jam the guide vanes, doubt me? Keep doing that and you will be replacing your turbo at about 40-50,000 miles along with the rest of the engine! Why you say? Jammed rings since you never allow the engine to get on boost.

NEVER I repeat NEVER shift ANY A4 TDI like that.

When do you shift a TDI you ask? Here is your answer:
-When cold at 2,500 rpm minimum
-When the engine is warm 3,000 rpm minimum

Trying to lug a TDI that is designed to operate in the 2,000-5,100 rpm range below 2,000 rpm is suicide for your turbo and intake tract.

Click to expand...

Very strong words
To me they mean unambigiously that unless you shift as he says - and not only during break-in period but EVER, you will not just lose some compression and performance, but utterly ruin your engine.

While I could agree with your position, I just don't find his believable.

But once again, do with your car as you please, everyone.

Hi

Here in Europe TDIs are known to be "fast diesels".
People drive them hard.

I have seen several TDIs beating gassers around here.
Whe have the 100, 115, 130, 150 and 160hp PDs here, all
of them perform great, but the 150hp version is a serious pain in the ass to the most gassers around here.

There are people here that did the ECU re-encoding on the
150hp TDI and the thing "eats" the floor ... It really
puts your back on the seat...

All this just to say that, these engines seem to be confortable a higher rpms. The most "productive" area is
the 2000 - 3500 rpm.

So why not to keep them where they like to be ?!
That's where they were designed to live, so give them
a decent life They will thak you, believe me.

That Hug.

SS

I just got my new 2005 Passat Wagon. I was gunning it a little too much and I think that my RPM's went up to about 4200 (very brief). I just passed 100 miles. Am I still ok?

Also,

Should I be using the triptronic transmission during the break in period?

I think that that post and other similar ones like it are just academic... people said that the TDI won't warm up at idle, and other people tried it just to prove it.

But think about it... running the engine at low temperatures is not a good thing. Would you rather drive for 5 minutes to bring it up to full temp or let it idle for 30 and bring the temp needle up one tick?

Click to expand...

Has anyone actually timed the difference in warm-up to operating temp, between driveway ideling and normal driving ?

Josh.