Oregon considers taxing miles instead of gasoline; hybrid cars could threaten road up

AZ06Jetta · Jan 3, 2009

Government trying to pull more money out of your wallet: http://phoenix.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D95FLQL00&_action=validatearticle

"The next Congress "could begin to set the stage, perhaps looking at some much more robust pilot programs, to begin the research, to work with manufacturers."

"There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this," he said.

"Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage".

hevster1 · Jan 3, 2009

How about this, we ok this in all states as soon as school taxes are paid by only those who have children in school for example. I don't have children, don't plan to and have never had them so I am totally exempt. Since I am in sales and drive 45k+ a year it would offset the tax and my fuel and parts bills. Hey it's just being fair right?

coyotlviejo · Jan 3, 2009

I wonder if this would make WVO and home-brew bio legal, since the question of taxed/untaxed fuel would no longer be relevant? Mileage taxes would probably be chump change compared to untaxed fuel fines, so this could be good for the DIY crowd. Then again, if this would only apply to newer vehicles, then most of the WVO crowd would still fall into the fuel tax group since most WVO vehicles are older models.

Dan

coyotlviejo · Jan 3, 2009

Hevster1 - While you're getting that one passed, maybe you could add in a home or private school tax exemption as well? Thanks!

Dan

thebigarniedog · Jan 3, 2009

coyotlviejo said:
.... Mileage taxes would probably be chump change compared to untaxed fuel fines, so this could be good for the DIY crowd.
Dan

Hervster said:
How about this, we ok this in all states as soon as school taxes are paid by only those who have children in school for example. I don't have children, don't plan to and have never had them so I am totally exempt. Since I am in sales and drive 45k+ a year it would offset the tax and my fuel and parts bills. Hey it's just being fair right?

Taxation is about one thing: Revenue for the government to spend. Taxation is not about fairness; it is not about roads; it is not about schools; it is not about being patriotic.

Unfortunately, taxation has become just another political issue for the class warfare folks to drive their political agendas (see my second favorite post in my signature

). If only someone else could be taxed the problem would be fixed

. All we need is another bailout and more stimulus

. How have we become this stupid?

The real issue revealed in this thread is just how in bed with crappy fuel economy standards the government was with Big Auto all along. Better fuel economy threatens to "Rob the Government of their revenue" (fuel taxes ---- more you pump the more the Government gets in taxes and vice versa)"

. Kinda reminds me about the "government's" solution to the smoking issue: tax the crap out the remaining people addicted to cigs ---- brilliant stuff when you consider the government taxed the crap out of cigs throughout their existence after giving them away to our Soldiers for free to get a generation addicted in the first place).

So why doesn't more taxes solve the problem? Lets look at the peoples republic of New Jersey (my Home State). Every conceivable area has already been taxed to death. Your fuel is taxed; your Parkway and Turnpike is tolled to death; your rental cars have "homeland security taxes" in addition to the usually rental taxes; your hotels are taxed; your car insurance is ridiculously overpriced; you are only one of four States that has the temerity to tax both the estate and inheritances; you tax real estate transfers; your yearly car registration is in essence a tax (but hey you have motor vehicle inspections as well

). Everything sold is taxed at seven percent (we haven't even mentioned property taxes being amongst the highest in the Nation). It's just sad that despite everything being taxed that the State still has a significant budget shortfall. Time to raise taxes, eh?

phaser · Jan 4, 2009

Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.

Oregon is a zone? So, no matter what street we may be on, vechicles will be charged a premium just because of the time of day?

Congress has their eye on this and they are seeing big $$$$ on a national scale.
.

MrMopar · Jan 4, 2009

phaser said:
Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage.

Oregon is a zone? So, no matter what street we may be on, vechicles will be charges a premium just because of the time of day?

Congress has their eye on this and they are seeing big $$$$ on a national scale.
.

Luckily, anyone with the internet can download electronic plans to build a GPS jammer.

Don't like the government tracking you for certain trips? Turn the jammer on when you want privacy.

Want to set your own tax rate? Figure how many miles you want to pay for, and turn the jammer on for a percentage of your driving time until you come to a fair taxation level that you feel is appropriate to pay.

phaser · Jan 4, 2009

MrMopar said:
Luckily, anyone with the internet can download electronic plans to build a GPS jammer.

I think they've anticipated this possibility. First it will be against the law to jam. If jamming occurs anyway, the GPS will report such conditions, plus it will be tied to the vehicles odometer, the two will have to match. The fine will be deducted at the pump if using plastic or you'll get the ticket in the mail. Just like photo radar speed traps. When government wants our money there's very little we can do, if we can't vote on the issue.

Don't be decieved by the word "tax". It's actually a road use "fee". Here in Oregon, we vote on all tax measures by law. But "fees" are implemented at will by Oregon government. Their goal is to take the voter out of the loop.

If we get to vote on this as a tax measure it will go down in flames and they know it. That's why it's a road use "fee".
.

hevster1 · Jan 4, 2009

thebigarniedog said:
Taxation is about one thing: Revenue for the government to spend. Taxation is not about fairness; it is not about roads; it is not about schools; it is not about being patriotic.

Unfortunately, taxation has become just another political issue for the class warfare folks to drive their political agendas (see my second favorite post in my signature ). If only someone else could be taxed the problem would be fixed . All we need is another bailout and more stimulus . How have we become this stupid?

The real issue revealed in this thread is just how in bed with crappy fuel economy standards the government was with Big Auto all along. Better fuel economy threatens to "Rob the Government of their revenue" (fuel taxes ---- more you pump the more the Government gets in taxes and vice versa)" . Kinda reminds me about the "government's" solution to the smoking issue: tax the crap out the remaining people addicted to cigs ---- brilliant stuff when you consider the government taxed the crap out of cigs throughout their existence after giving them away to our Soldiers for free to get a generation addicted in the first place).

So why doesn't more taxes solve the problem? Lets look at the peoples republic of New Jersey (my Home State). Every conceivable area has already been taxed to death. Your fuel is taxed; your Parkway and Turnpike is tolled to death; your rental cars have "homeland security taxes" in addition to the usually rental taxes; your hotels are taxed; your car insurance is ridiculously overpriced; you are only one of four States that has the temerity to tax both the estate and inheritances; you tax real estate transfers; your yearly car registration is in essence a tax (but hey you have motor vehicle inspections as well ). Everything sold is taxed at seven percent (we haven't even mentioned property taxes being amongst the highest in the Nation). It's just sad that despite everything being taxed that the State still has a significant budget shortfall. Time to raise taxes, eh?

I thought you were from Ohio.

You forgot the proposed tax/toll on I-80 and I-78.

I think you are misunderstanding me, I am totally against tax increases. I was being sarcastic.

Anyone who wants to see that tax increases don't work need only to look at NJ as an example.

hevster1 · Jan 4, 2009

coyotlviejo said:
Hevster1 - While you're getting that one passed, maybe you could add in a home or private school tax exemption as well? Thanks!

Dan

I would love to. You do understand I was being sarcastic right?

hevster1 · Jan 4, 2009

phaser said:
I think they've anticipated this possibility. First it will be against the law to jam. If jamming occurs anyway, the GPS will report such conditions, plus it will be tied to the vehicles odometer, the two will have to match. The fine will be deducted at the pump if using plastic or you'll get the ticket in the mail. Just like photo radar speed traps. When government wants our money there's very little we can do, if we can't vote on the issue.
Don't be decieved by the word "tax". It's actually a road use "fee". Here in Oregon, we vote on all tax measures by law. But "fees" are implemented at will by Oregon government. Their goal is to take the voter out of the loop.
If we get to vote on this as a tax measure it will go down in flames and they know it. That's why it's a road use "fee".
.

I agree on getting the voter out of the loop. My question is have you contacted the imbeciles in your state government about this? Have you let them know you will not put up with it and their job is on the line?

thebigarniedog · Jan 4, 2009

hevster1 said:
I thought you were from Ohio.

I Moved to Ohio in 1990.

coyotlviejo · Jan 4, 2009

Hevster - Yes, I understood that you were being sarcastic. I was being semi-serious, however. Not that I seriously expect taxation to ever be fair (much less ethical or constitutionally legal). So I guess I was also being sarcastic in that I was using a "plea for justice" simply to point out that our tax system is not just.

Dan

osesu96 · Jan 4, 2009

Note: I don't advocate a mileage tax over the current fuel tax.

However, if they are going to go on mileage, I'd prefer a system where mileage is just one part of the calculation with weight being the other. So even though some donk with a Hummer drove only 1k miles, his tax would take into consideration the weight of the vehicle over those 1k miles. Argument being, heavier vehicles will do more damage per mile than lighter cars and thus, they should pay more per mile but do so proportionally.

I'd start with the lightest car in production and use that weight as the base. Then calculate the % increase in weight your car is over this "base" car. Use that % to hit those with heavy, and likely least efficient vehicles, with an extra "fee" to help pay for the roads. If weight isn't included, not sure I'd ever get behind this idea.

As for Hevster's thought on the school tax and kids, I'd do a similar thing. We all pay a "base" tax, then for those households with school age children, they pay an extra "fee" for each child during the years in which those children are in school (K-12). Once those children complete school, those extra "fees" come off the parents' school tax. Thus, seniors only pay the base and those procreating put more towards the education of the children they chose to create.

Just my 2c.

<flame suit enabled>

dhdenney · Jan 4, 2009

The proposal envisions a gradual change, with manufacturers installing the technology in new vehicles because retrofitting old cars would be too expensive. Owners of older vehicles would continue to pay gasoline taxes.

OK how does this work? How do you levy gas taxes to the old cars and not the new cars with the integrated GPS? This is a damn joke.

Dimitri16V · Jan 4, 2009

hevster1 said:
How about this, we ok this in all states as soon as school taxes are paid by only those who have children in school for example. I don't have children, don't plan to and have never had them so I am totally exempt. Since I am in sales and drive 45k+ a year it would offset the tax and my fuel and parts bills. Hey it's just being fair right?

yeah, you can only wish.. pretty soon we'll be taxed for the air we breath. NY already tries to tax soft drinks, cigs are already unaffordable , a tax refund will be unheard of in the coming years.

MrMopar · Jan 4, 2009

Dimitri16V said:
cigs are already unaffordable

Define "unaffordable" in regards to cigarettes, and explain how this is a problem?

velociT · Jan 4, 2009

dhdenney said:
The proposal envisions a gradual change, with manufacturers installing the technology in new vehicles because retrofitting old cars would be too expensive. Owners of older vehicles would continue to pay gasoline taxes.

OK how does this work? How do you levy gas taxes to the old cars and not the new cars with the integrated GPS? This is a damn joke.

Haha, that's really gonna facilitate new american car buying

I think politicians shouldn't be allowed to think, by law.

Maybe we can pass a stupid idea tax?

Thunderstruck · Jan 4, 2009

velociT said:
I think politicians shouldn't be allowed to think, by law.

From the rhetoric I've heard that law must already be in effect.

CentralFloridaTDIguy · Jan 4, 2009

what about private roads?

AZ06Jetta said:
Government trying to pull more money out of your wallet: http://phoenix.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D95FLQL00&_action=validatearticle

"The next Congress "could begin to set the stage, perhaps looking at some much more robust pilot programs, to begin the research, to work with manufacturers."

"There is kind of a coalition that's naturally forming around this," he said.

"Though the GPS devices did not track the cars' locations in great detail, they could determine when a driver had left certain zones, such as the state of Oregon. They also kept track of the time the driving was done, so a premium could be charged for rush-hour mileage".

I don't think it would be fair to pay 'road use taxes' on non-public roads...

Thunderstruck · Jan 4, 2009

Actually, that's a valid point but I don't think anyone here in IL has tried it yet. Theoretically you are entitled to a refund for all the miles driven on the tollways since they are not publicly funded roads.

TT71 · Jan 4, 2009

osesu96 I have to give you credit that you have put some thought into this. I find only one flaw. The people who are nothing more than professional breeders. How would the government extract from them? Yeah I know one should be responsible blah blah blah. However we are talking about the government. The ones who pay exorbitant ammount for hammers and toilet seats.

kotflb · Jan 4, 2009

If this kind of tax or fee is allowed to even start, you can be assured that the rate will continue to climb until your children or grand children can only afford to travel by horse and buggy or bicycle.

Oregon currently has this system in affect for commercial vehicles and it's the same as a high priced toll for each and every mile you travel, problem is, you can't get off the toll road until you leave the state.

Thunderstruck · Jan 4, 2009

Then they will tax horses and bicycles.

velociT · Jan 4, 2009

When cars are made illegal, only criminals will have cars...

CentralFloridaTDIguy · Jan 5, 2009

if this becomes law in Oregon for non-commercial vehicles..

kotflb said:
If this kind of tax or fee is allowed to even start, you can be assured that the rate will continue to climb until your children or grand children can only afford to travel by horse and buggy or bicycle.

Oregon currently has this system in affect for commercial vehicles and it's the same as a high priced toll for each and every mile you travel, problem is, you can't get off the toll road until you leave the state.

watch the exodus of people that can afford to move.

osesu96 · Jan 5, 2009

TT71 said:
osesu96 I have to give you credit that you have put some thought into this. I find only one flaw. The people who are nothing more than professional breeders. How would the government extract from them? Yeah I know one should be responsible blah blah blah. However we are talking about the government. The ones who pay exorbitant ammount for hammers and toilet seats.

Thanks... as for the professional breeders, too bad... you breed, you pay... don't want to pay, stop breeding... frankly, I think some folks would think twice about bringing another child into the world if they knew 5 years after birth they'd be hit with a 750.00 "school surcharge"... lord knows I would....

It's fine time to assert some slap-down for peoples' poor choices. Hence my other idea on using weight of vehicle to decide who pays more in pure dollars. A VW Golf shouldn't pay the same as a Hummer if both drove the same number of miles. Make it painful enough, it "encourages" the irresponsible Hummer owners to think twice next time they are buying a vehicle.

Just my 2c...

CMB430 · Jan 5, 2009

I do not believe in redistribution of wealth nor do I believe in my private care being load-jacked (have a GPS). It is really hard to believe that if I do not live within my means, I have to use plastic, sell assets or cut back to make the balance positive at the end of the month. If a state or the feds go over, they just pass a levy or raise taxes. MN has a $4.5 BILLION deficit over the next 2 years. Between the "Green Initiatives", "Sanctuary Cities", CAFE standards, welfare programs and FOREIGN AID, we are likely to never get ahead. This is why I just purchased a big gun safe and am going to burry mason jars filled with cash in the back yard below the frost line to withstand the big bang...ohh...and I work for the feds! I was fixed at 21 so I can not have kids...yet I have to pay for school tax? I pay fuel tax because I use the roads...federal income tax because the defense department defends me...social security because (I am not counting on it...) it will aid me when I retire...local tax to pay for the VFD and parks...perhaps only the fair tax that Huckabee wants will make us all happy.

Rickstdi · Jan 5, 2009

osesu96 said:
It's fine time to assert some slap-down for peoples' poor choices. Hence my other idea on using weight of vehicle to decide who pays more in pure dollars. A VW Golf shouldn't pay the same as a Hummer if both drove the same number of miles. Make it painful enough, it "encourages" the irresponsible Hummer owners to think twice next time they are buying a vehicle.

Just my 2c...

Disagree.
They already pay an up front gas guzzelers tax.
As your thinking goes on the Hummer, then someone who buys a F250 for his needs of say, he has a large yard or farm, pays more taxes per gallon because he has to buy more fuel.
Government should not and will not tell me what to do or what to drive.

Rickstdi · Jan 5, 2009

Between the "Green Initiatives", "Sanctuary Cities", CAFE standards, welfare programs and FOREIGN AID, we will never get ahead.

Fixed it for ya.

Oregon considers taxing miles instead of gasoline; hybrid cars could threaten road up

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