Unable to shift

Car is an 02 beetle tdi.

Some background:
I was unable to shift into gears before we started. We had tried to bleed it and got nowhere, adjusted the linkage and nothing changed. The car moved forward with clutch pressed all the way to the floor. Swapped the slave, nothing changed. Bled some more and got nowhere.

So, I swapped out the transmission, the clutch, flywheel, pressure plate. The old flywheel was in bad shape, all the bolt holes were initially covered but we were able to move it freely.

Everything went back together smooth and we started it up only to find we have the exact same problem. We bled the clutch again, no bubbles came out.

I am at a loss, please help!

Thanks

Drew

Did you check the clutch master cylinder? Is the over-center spring installed?

Thanks for the quick reply

The clutch master is the only thing at this point that has not been replaced. I'm not sure how I would check it?

I also don't know what you mean by over-center spring?

I thought the clutch fluid was shared by the brake master cylinder?

#1: Silly question, but is there fluid in the brake master cylinder?
#2: How are you bleeding the clutch? Please explain in detail.
#3: Is there any fluid coming out of the slave cylinder bleeder?
#4: When you removed the tranny, did the throwout bearing fork look bent?
#5: How much clutch pedal effort do you have? Is everything attached to the back of the clutch pedal?

This is the over center spring.


It has two jobs:
Make depressing the clutch easier
Hold the clutch in the fully returned position when near the top of the travel.

If the clutch pedal doesn't return reliably, its master cylinder compensation device can sometimes fail to work correctly. I don't know how tolerant of a missing spring the VW system is.

Yes, it runs on the same brake fluid from the BMS's reservoir.

Checking the CMS might be tricky, since it's the only thing left, replacing it might be easiest. If the CSS is removed, depressing the clutch pedal can eject the plunger.

Ausgezeichnet TDi said:

I thought the clutch fluid was shared by the brake master cylinder?

#1: Silly question, but is there fluid in the brake master cylinder?
#2: How are you bleeding the clutch? Please explain in detail.
#3: Is there any fluid coming out of the slave cylinder bleeder?
#4: When you removed the tranny, did the throwout bearing fork look bent?
#5: How much clutch pedal effort do you have? Is everything attached to the back of the clutch pedal?

Click to expand...

The fluid is full and we have been careful to ensure it stays that way while bleeding.

The bleed procedure we are using is a manual one. Pedal down, open bleeder, close bleeder, raise pedal.

Fluid is coming out and it appears to be a steady stream with no bubbles.

Throwout bearing and fork were also replaced. Looked good going in.

There is some resistance to the pedal but it doesn't seem quite right. Everything is attached

jcrews said:

This is the over center spring.

It has two jobs:
Make depressing the clutch easier
Hold the clutch in the fully returned position when near the top of the travel.

If the clutch pedal doesn't return reliably, its master cylinder compensation device can sometimes fail to work correctly. I don't know how tolerant of a missing spring the VW system is.

Yes, it runs on the same brake fluid from the BMS's reservoir.

Checking the CMS might be tricky, since it's the only thing left, replacing it might be easiest. If the CSS is removed, depressing the clutch pedal can eject the plunger.

Click to expand...

The over center spring is installed.

Would depressing the pedal with the slave disconnected be a good idea?

coldfire said:

Would depressing the pedal with the slave disconnected be a good idea?

Click to expand...

If you mean removed from the transmission, no. At least not without something to keep it from traveling too far.

If you can't get it to work with power bleeding, then replacing the clutch master appears to be the next logical step.

Did everything move smoothly on the input shaft when you installed the new throwout bearing and fork? Even though you have a constant flow of fluid, you may have an internal leak in one of the seals of your clutch master...fluid pressure needs to overcome mechanical pressure...how did the pressure plate springs/fingers look?

Ausgezeichnet TDi said:

Did everything move smoothly on the input shaft when you installed the new throwout bearing and fork? Even though you have a constant flow of fluid, you may have an internal leak in one of the seals of your clutch master...fluid pressure needs to overcome mechanical pressure...how did the pressure plate springs/fingers look?

Click to expand...

Everything moved freely and it all went back together quite well. Pressure plate looked good.

Its possible it is in internal leak in the clutch master. We had an extra slave but it made no difference.

Should I have the reservoir cap opened or closed during the bleed??

It makes no difference.

Thanks guys, we have bled it for hours and not made any progress. I have a clutch master on its way now so hopefully that will do it.

I will update when I have it installed.

Sounds like the master is not generating enough pressure to do anything with the slave cylinder. when you bled the slave cylinder did you try with the nipple closed, then put your foot down (or your helper) then crack the nipple. Did a bunch of fluid shoot into the tube and into your bottle with pressure or just kind of come out like it had nothing better to do?

Are you pressure bleeding it ?

Did you happen to check the pilot bearing in the end of the crank shaft?
If it seizes on the end of the transmission shaft it will keep the transmission
spinning and not allow for a shift.

rmchambers said:

Sounds like the master is not generating enough pressure to do anything with the slave cylinder. when you bled the slave cylinder did you try with the nipple closed, then put your foot down (or your helper) then crack the nipple. Did a bunch of fluid shoot into the tube and into your bottle with pressure or just kind of come out like it had nothing better to do?

Click to expand...

It doesn't shoot out with any noticable amount of pressure which makes me think the master is suspect too. I don't think its a bleed issue, but it sure could be. Unfortunately I do not have a pressure bleeder, but when I got the master I also picked up an extra master cylinder cap so I can build a bleeder like this one.

http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/campingart/jettatech/bleeder/index.htm

I am hoping to get the master swapped out either tonight or tomorrow night. Any tips?

Ok I replaced the clutch master and there doesnt seem to be any change. The pedal doesn't feel quite right and I think I may have a bleed issue at this point. I haven't had a chance to get a power bleeder together (either build or buy) yet.

I tried the pedal pumping method again but didn't really get anywhere. I did notice however that the rubber part of the hydrolic line going from the master to the slave seems to flex quite a bit. Is this normal? I cannot find any actual leaks anywhere and I'm not loosing any fluid. Could this line be part of the problem? I'd rather not just keep throwing parts at it.

What do you guys think?

Does anybody know if the rubber part of the hydraulic line going from the master to slave is supposed to move when the clutch is pressed? If so, how much would be normal?

Thanks

At this point, I would back up for a second.

Chock the rear wheels and put on the parking brake. Raise one of the front wheels. With the engine off and the car in gear, verify that you cannot spin the front wheel very far.

Next, push in the clutch pedal and observe how difficult it is to turn the front wheel or if there is no difference.

Finally, remove the slave cylinder from the transmission. Have an assistant manually release the clutch using something like a screw driver to push the release lever. Verify that the clutch is indeed releasing by spinning the front wheel. Compare to how the clutch operated when using the clutch pedal.

dalchri said:

At this point, I would back up for a second.

Chock the rear wheels and put on the parking brake. Raise one of the front wheels. With the engine off and the car in gear, verify that you cannot spin the front wheel very far.

Next, push in the clutch pedal and observe how difficult it is to turn the front wheel or if there is no difference.

Finally, remove the slave cylinder from the transmission. Have an assistant manually release the clutch using something like a screw driver to push the release lever. Verify that the clutch is indeed releasing by spinning the front wheel. Compare to how the clutch operated when using the clutch pedal.

Click to expand...

I gave this a shot. No noticable difference in wheel movement between pedal pressed and not pressed.

I took off the slave and tried to push the release lever but I wasn't able to get it to move much at all, not enough to make a difference as far as the wheel movement went. How hard should it be to push the release lever manually?

I imagine pretty hard. The hydraulics give you quite a bit of mechanical advantage. My suggestion to use a screw driver might not be practical.

Do whatever you gotta do to manually release that lever. Maybe a bolt threaded through a piece of wood and braced against the transmission housing? Maybe you can use a crowbar against the butt end of the screw driver?

But if you really find that the release lever will not budge, or that once it does move that your clutch still does not release, your problem is still inside the transmission case.

The point of the exercise is to verify that the problem is indeed with the hydraulic clutch release system by eliminating it from the equation. Since you have replaced almost everything in the hydraulics, I just want to take a moment to ensure that is really where the problem lies.

dalchri said:

I imagine pretty hard. The hydraulics give you quite a bit of mechanical advantage. My suggestion to use a screw driver might not be practical.

Do whatever you gotta do to manually release that lever. Maybe a bolt threaded through a piece of wood and braced against the transmission housing? Maybe you can use a crowbar against the butt end of the screw driver?

But if you really find that the release lever will not budge, or that once it does move that your clutch still does not release, your problem is still inside the transmission case.

The point of the exercise is to verify that the problem is indeed with the hydraulic clutch release system by eliminating it from the equation. Since you have replaced almost everything in the hydraulics, I just want to take a moment to ensure that is really where the problem lies.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I appreciate the help. I am hoping to have some more time this weekend to dedicate to this. I think a bolt threaded through some wood might be the only shot to manually release it. I tried a variety of things to try and get some leverage with a crow bar but as soon as it would budge it would slip out of the way.

I was able to to determine the pedal can release it at least a small bit. If I put it in first and step on the go pedal it just goes. If I press the clutch pedal and the go pedal it still goes, but it slips. This gives me some hope!

Either way, your right in needing to know if its hydraulic or internal before going any further

I have also finally been able to procure all the parts needed to build a pressure bleeder and I will give that a shot as well.

Based on the fact that the pedal just seems pretty soft and the rubber part of the hydraulic line moves when the pedal is pressed I am inclinded to think its still hydraulic but that may just be my lack of desire to take the tranny off again!

what size bolt did you thread into the shifter cable bracket that sits right overtop the slave? thats a through hole and putting a longer bolt or incorrect bolt could stop the release lever from doing its job. remove that bolt and try again.