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General VW Discussion This is a place for General VW topics (the company, not your vehicle). General topics about a specific vehicle should be posted in the General TDI Dicussion Forum sections for that vehicle platform. A4, A3 & B4, B5, etc.

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Old November 12th, 2019, 13:01   #1
vwgtiglx
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Default Finally - a smart start/stop system

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gm-patent...184800690.html
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Old November 17th, 2019, 14:01   #2
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Recently I drove a 2020 Jetta loaner. It had the stop/start system. I have to be honest I did not notice anything bad about it.
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Old November 17th, 2019, 15:06   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwgtiglx View Post
Quote:
cutting out power at every stoplight and annoying the occupants inside the vehicle.
I hate it when I save gas, SO ANNOYING!!!!!


Americans get annoyed by the dumbest things.
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Old November 17th, 2019, 16:08   #4
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
Americans get annoyed by the dumbest things.

My car has auto start/stop and I was surprised that I do not find it nearly as annoying as I expected it to be. The only time I turn it off is in the summer when it is over 110 degrees (F) and I want the A/C on constantly. I know how to permanently disable it, but I haven't done it. i don't see the need. It is just not an issue.


Have Fun!


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P.S. You are right, we do get annoyed far too easily. We seem to live in a culture of umbrage.
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Old November 17th, 2019, 18:22   #5
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My car has auto start/stop and I was surprised that I do not find it nearly as annoying as I expected it to be. The only time I turn it off is in the summer when it is over 110 degrees (F) and I want the A/C on constantly. I know how to permanently disable it, but I haven't done it. i don't see the need. It is just not an issue.


Have Fun!


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P.S. You are right, we do get annoyed far too easily. We seem to live in a culture of umbrage.
I had a rental car a few months back with start stop, I was driving in some truly horrendous traffic, it was pretty nice to not sit there idling at a stand still, lift my foot off the brake and it started up before I got my foot to the gas pedal. A few years back I also had a manual trans rental car with start stop, when you put the car in neutral and took your foot off the clutch the engine shut off, as soon as you began depressing the clutch the engine started and was always running well before you had 1st gear engaged, I had no traffic to deal with with that car, but it was still pretty nice.
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Old November 18th, 2019, 06:24   #6
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Yup, the only bad thing that would come from this system is increased maintenance due to extra wear and tear on the starter. Since the ones people are running into haven't been around long enough to generate long term reliability statistics, the jury is officially out. Certainly it would be harder on those vehicles mainly engaged in crowded traffic on most of the uses.

My cars are all too old to have this, but maybe someday I'll have to get one. Or, maybe not. I'm thinking I won't outlive my current love of the 4th gen A chassis.

Cheers,

PH
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Old November 18th, 2019, 08:10   #7
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Originally Posted by Powder Hound View Post
Yup, the only bad thing that would come from this system is increased maintenance due to extra wear and tear on the starter. Since the ones people are running into haven't been around long enough to generate long term reliability statistics, the jury is officially out. Certainly it would be harder on those vehicles mainly engaged in crowded traffic on most of the uses.

I have been told that cars with auto start/stop have "heavy duty" starters to withstand the additional wear and tear from the repeated starting. I guess time will tell how true this is. The scary thing to me is that there have been a few cases where the car shut off (as normal) at a stop light, when the light turned green they released the brake and the engine didn't start. All they got was a lot of lights in the instrument panel and a dead car. This is rare (so far), but it could be bad news.


Have Fun!


Don
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Old November 18th, 2019, 08:29   #8
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The only issue I've run into with the start/stop was in a Jeep Grand Cherokee rental. I had a small space to quickly turn into traffic and the engine did not engage quickly enough. Ended up clogging the intersection for a few beats. Good thing I was in Canada where the use of the middle finger and horns is not as common as down here in the South.
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Old November 19th, 2019, 10:04   #9
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I have been told that cars with auto start/stop have "heavy duty" starters to withstand the additional wear and tear from the repeated starting. ...
Yes. Definitely that is needed. Of course, nobody ever cheated the emissions stuff, and VW told everyone that the 01M had 'lifetime fluid' that never needed changing as well.

The proof will, as always, be in the pudding.

Cheers,

PH
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Old November 19th, 2019, 10:56   #10
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Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
The only issue I've run into with the start/stop was in a Jeep Grand Cherokee rental. I had a small space to quickly turn into traffic and the engine did not engage quickly enough. Ended up clogging the intersection for a few beats. Good thing I was in Canada where the use of the middle finger and horns is not as common as down here in the South.
Jeep has a button to turn off start/stop. GM is not smart enough to install the button in their cars. I found an Equinox diesel for a good price, but I hate start stop.
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Old November 19th, 2019, 11:14   #11
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Here is my take:

if they had actually let hybrid technology spill over into non-hybrid vehicles, specifically ditching the conventional starter and alternator, and going to an integrated motor/generator (even if this motor was just for restarting the engine and not actually MOVING the car), this would work much better.

But instead, they are just essentially using software on existing components. It varies model to model, manufacturer to manufacturer. Some simply use a higher rated battery (usually an AGM type) that can withstand the more frequent ups and downs of voltage. Remember, when the engine is not running, all the electrical consumers are working off the battery AND that battery still must be able to restart the engine. These consumers vary, but can be quite substantial, more than a car without stop/start, because they do things like hill holding (runs the ABS motor to hold pressure on the brakes).

There are a few that use a slightly higher rated duty cycle starter as well. But I know of exactly NONE of them that use a strengthened flywheel, although there are some that do some fancy trickery with the cam phasing and throttle to reduce the cranking load on an engine that is already warmed up.

I personally do not like it, I find it annoying and I can most certainly tell the delay in taking off from a stop, although it probably isn't any different than working the clutch on a manual transmission car but I just do not expect it when driving something with only two pedals.

But the biggest thing is, the starters... the normal failure mode of most starters is (drum roll... ) they DO NOT CRANK! And when do you find out when your starter dies? Well, normally it is when you go to start your car, and where do you have your car when you go to start it? The place you PARKED IT. But now, we have cars "parked" at traffic lights. So yes, now the starter can suddenly die and strand the vehicle in the middle of the street. We've already seen this happen.

GM actually has their software so in tune that when your stop/start GM car dies suddenly, OnStar is already on it. So when you are sitting in the middle of the street with people honking at you, they are already calling your car to tell you a tow truck has been dispatched. Pretty clever. What would even be more clever? Just letting the engine run for 30 seconds.

It is something that has been granted greenie points so the manufacturers have an incentive to have it, because it *could* possibly save *some* fuel. But we figured out on the F150 that the fuel savings as estimated by Ford will essentially be eaten up by the higher battery cost alone under most conditions. I do think some people may see some fuel savings, depending on the type of traffic conditions you encounter. And most of these systems are still not very good at toggling HVAC duties with the engine operation. The Malibu I had to drive for a bit most certainly had its A/C output take a steaming dump as soon as the engine shut off. So much so, that I found that if you place the car in N, the system switches off, and lets the engine keep running. Go figure.

We have had several Kia Souls in here with dead starters already, and a couple F150s and some various GM vehicles, the most recent was a Traverse.
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Old November 22nd, 2019, 13:06   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
Here is my take:

if they had actually let hybrid technology spill over into non-hybrid vehicles, specifically ditching the conventional starter and alternator, and going to an integrated motor/generator (even if this motor was just for restarting the engine and not actually MOVING the car), this would work much better.

But instead, they are just essentially using software on existing components. It varies model to model, manufacturer to manufacturer. Some simply use a higher rated battery (usually an AGM type) that can withstand the more frequent ups and downs of voltage. Remember, when the engine is not running, all the electrical consumers are working off the battery AND that battery still must be able to restart the engine. These consumers vary, but can be quite substantial, more than a car without stop/start, because they do things like hill holding (runs the ABS motor to hold pressure on the brakes).

There are a few that use a slightly higher rated duty cycle starter as well. But I know of exactly NONE of them that use a strengthened flywheel, although there are some that do some fancy trickery with the cam phasing and throttle to reduce the cranking load on an engine that is already warmed up.

I personally do not like it, I find it annoying and I can most certainly tell the delay in taking off from a stop, although it probably isn't any different than working the clutch on a manual transmission car but I just do not expect it when driving something with only two pedals.

But the biggest thing is, the starters... the normal failure mode of most starters is (drum roll... ) they DO NOT CRANK! And when do you find out when your starter dies? Well, normally it is when you go to start your car, and where do you have your car when you go to start it? The place you PARKED IT. But now, we have cars "parked" at traffic lights. So yes, now the starter can suddenly die and strand the vehicle in the middle of the street. We've already seen this happen.

GM actually has their software so in tune that when your stop/start GM car dies suddenly, OnStar is already on it. So when you are sitting in the middle of the street with people honking at you, they are already calling your car to tell you a tow truck has been dispatched. Pretty clever. What would even be more clever? Just letting the engine run for 30 seconds.

It is something that has been granted greenie points so the manufacturers have an incentive to have it, because it *could* possibly save *some* fuel. But we figured out on the F150 that the fuel savings as estimated by Ford will essentially be eaten up by the higher battery cost alone under most conditions. I do think some people may see some fuel savings, depending on the type of traffic conditions you encounter. And most of these systems are still not very good at toggling HVAC duties with the engine operation. The Malibu I had to drive for a bit most certainly had its A/C output take a steaming dump as soon as the engine shut off. So much so, that I found that if you place the car in N, the system switches off, and lets the engine keep running. Go figure.

We have had several Kia Souls in here with dead starters already, and a couple F150s and some various GM vehicles, the most recent was a Traverse.
The GM call center didn't work on my daughter's Buick. Of course, they're probably too cheap to pay for the annual fee, but that's another story. Her battery wouldn't hold a charge, so every time she came to a stop and the engine shut off, there she sat. Buick ended up replacing the battery under warranty, so all good in the end. Or at least until she needs another new battery.

In looking at the owners manual, the only way to disable the start/stop system is exactly as you described. Just before coming to a complete stop, shift into neutral.
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Old November 24th, 2019, 08:57   #13
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What a stupid idea. the planet alarmist need to go find another idea to interject their retarded ideas into. If you want to save the planet, why don't yo go attack China, Russia and India to reduce pollution? Having our cars produce less pollution then they breathe in at thousands of dollars per car does exactly nothing on a planetary level.
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Old November 24th, 2019, 11:27   #14
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Originally Posted by kjclow View Post
In looking at the owners manual, the only way to disable the start/stop system is exactly as you described. Just before coming to a complete stop, shift into neutral.

Luckily, with MQB Volkswagens completely disabling the auto start/stop is easy with VCDS (or a similar tool).


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