TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

Windjammer - a couple more things. if it were my TDI ...

1) i would take the lab's recommendation and change the air filter and inspect the air intake system

2) after changing the oil today i personally would extract a baseline oil sample after 25 miles of driving to see how much contaminants were inherited, then sample again at mile 5025. if i didn't own an oil sampling pump i'd either borrow one or skip the baseline analysis and order one so it'd be on hand for the 5000 mile oil sample analysis. if at 5k the oil looks great then conservatively project how much longer the oil will perform optimally based on the 5k lab results.

3) personally, if i were about to do an oil change on a PD TDI - and every VW approved 50501 & 50700 oil that's readily available in North America was in the garage ready for me to use - the castrol oils would be my last choices.

First Oil Analysis

Hello SUNRG and other experts.

Would like your input, suggestions and comments on my oil lab results.

Thanks for your time.

Year:2002 TDI
Mileage:103,520
Oil Mileage: 7,832
Oil: 5w-30 ESP Mobil 1 507
Fuel: #2 Diesel diet varies with brands and sources.
Additives: Stanadyne Performance Formula; every tank 8oz. for the past 12 or so fill-ups.
Used Power Service once (white bottle) prior to Stanadyne.
Additional Info: Did not sample the previous oil when drained. Vehicle was purchased with previous oil.
Lab Comments: Compartment wear is normal. No problems indicated at this time. Continue sampling at normal interval.

Copper 3
Iron 43
Chromium 2
Aluminum 4
Lead 3
Tin 0
Molybdenum 87
Silicon 0
Sodium 10
Potassium 1
Calcium 1693
Magnesium 12
Zinc 1151
Boron 147
Phosphorus 1087
Silver 2
Barium 0
Nickel 1
Cadmium 0
Titanium 0
Vanadium 0
Manganese 0
Soot 55
Oxidation 8
Sulphur-product 0
Water NEG
Fuel Dilution NEG
Antifreeze NEG
Viscosity 13.3

Marble - dont you think you would be better off With TDT CI 4 or Delvac 1 ESP CJ 4- Amsoil DEO CJ4 - Schaeffers S9000 CJ4 - Shell Rotella T - CI 4
You could do much better with Delvac 1 ESP and 5 USD less per litre. Its low ash and a much stronger oil.

Your soot is high and look at the VIS.

Its a OK UOA and probably very good if it were a PD 5.5 ppm Fe.

Since you just purchased you can at least feel good it looks like a sound motor. GET THE SOOT DOWN.

does 55 = high soot? personally, i don't know what 55 means. if it means 0.55% by volume that's not super-low but it's acceptable. if it's a CAT lab i'd have to refer to the tables i posted here (somewhere) - but it still wouldn't be high.

viscosity is high (well into the 40 weight range) but we have no idea what the soot content or viscosity of the previous fill of oil was. IMHO based on this analysis your engine's fine. if it were my TDI - i'd just change the oil and sample at 7.5k on the next fill (i wouldn't change the oil until the lab results came back). your next 7.5k UOA results will probably look even better than these.

cheers!

PS - i don't agree with WJ's assertion that you could do much better with other oils. IMHO we don't have near enough data yet to make that determination. for all we know every oil WJ mentioned could have faired worse in your engine and operating conditions. if it were my TDI - i'd stick with what you've got. if i were to change i see no reason to go to a 40 weight.

Based on a 7k OCI 6+ ppm there are dozens of TDT, and Rotell T UOA's better than this. He does not need to spend 12.50 on a litre. There are several PD UOAs using Rotella and Delvac and better than this UOA.

wjdell said:

Based on a 7k OCI 6+ ppm there are dozens of TDT, and Rotell T UOA's better than this. He does not need to spend 12.50 on a litre. There are several PD UOAs using Rotella and Delvac and better than this UOA.

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i am not comfortable with the judgements you've made based on this single UOA with no prior UOA history.

for all i know 5w-30 ESP Mobil 1 507 could be the very best all-around TDI oil ever created. why recommend changing away from it after seeing one good UOA? for all we know the price difference could be more than made up for in fuel savings and increased performance without compromising engine protection.

If it is the best around its had a very mediocre start here and over at BITOG. I think this is the best we have seen so far, and if he really needed to spend 12.50 on a litre I would agree with you. But since he has a non PD motor, and NO DPF there are other choices I think will give him as good if not better numbers for 40% less $. As CJ oils are lower in ash and have new chemistry - as George posted.

SUNRG said:

does 55 = high soot? personally, i don't know what 55 means. if it means 0.55% by volume that's not super-low but it's acceptable. if it's a CAT lab i'd have to refer to the tables i posted here (somewhere) - but it still wouldn't be high.

viscosity is high (well into the 40 weight range) but we have no idea what the soot content or viscosity of the previous fill of oil was. IMHO based on this analysis your engine's fine. if it were my TDI - i'd just change the oil and sample at 7.5k on the next fill (i wouldn't change the oil until the lab results came back). your next 7.5k UOA results will probably look even better than these.

cheers!

PS - i don't agree with WJ's assertion that you could do much better with other oils. IMHO we don't have near enough data yet to make that determination. for all we know every oil WJ mentioned could have faired worse in your engine and operating conditions. if it were my TDI - i'd stick with what you've got. if i were to change i see no reason to go to a 40 weight.

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SUNRG & wjdell:

Thank you for your comments and opinions.
Yes it was a CAT analysis but was unable to find the conversion table you spoke of. So I called the lab and they indicated that the soot numbers are based on an index of 0 - 200; the lower the number the better. They would be concerned if the number were elevated to 125 or higher.

Thats really strange - 13.3 - everybody else is 11.9 or less - maybe its a fluke reading. Good luck on your next - if it gets better, you are doing very well. No one has seen a Delvac1 ESP UOA or VOA yet. ESP 5W30 may be lower in ash and even give slightly better mileage. But I will bet money that it can not protect a engine against wear as well as Delvac 1 ESP.

Thanks for the info. I'll do an oil change & sample again at 5025. I do have a sample pump, but have never used it. This might be a good time to start using another brand of oil. I use castrol because I get it from the dealer.

Oil = ELF Solaris LSX 5w30 VW50501 - BMWLL04 - MB229.51
9ppm Fe wear in 6003 miles equates to an Fe wear rate of 1.5ppm / 1000 miles during this oil sample interval.

Wish my UOA looked like that.

Wow, another UOA that makes me wonder how you do it.

Fantastic. I've got a case of LSX waiting in the wings for the Jetta, and I've got it in the Passat now.

You did the 28mi UOA to check for inherited contaminants?

2nd UOA on 2004 Jetta PD, heading in the right direction!

2004 Jetta PD, 122,500 miles. Unknown mileage on the first oil change, car was just purchased, seller said dealer maintained. 1st set of numbers have been making me think the cam is about to eat its lifters/followers. However, this could have been a very long OCI.

Major maintenance issues taken care of in between these oil changes: timing belt, fuel filter (old one was black inside), air filter (was probably leaking around the edge), boost leak and N75 vacuum hose failure fixed, partially clogged EGR cleaned out.

Second set of numbers are somewhat better, given that a decent portion of those wear metals are probably inherited. Oil used: Mobil 1 TDT. Miles on sample: 5000. PLEASE save the comments, I'm not interested in hearing that I should have used 505.01 ... AGAIN! For the love of GOD, please spare the bandwidth!!!


Fe 185 / 47
Cr 6 / 2
Ni 3 / 1
Al 18 / 10
Cu 13 / 5
Pb 6 / 0
Sn 1 / 0
Si 14 / 4
Na 163 / 43
K 9 / 5
Mo 77 / 11
B 43 / 47
Mg 68 / 348
Ca 2616 / 2415
P 872 / 1260
Zn 1079 / 1393

Viscosity @ 100C = 10.1 / 13.2
Fuel: A / A
Glycol: N / N
Water: <0.1% / <0.1%

Oxidation: 20 / 14
Nitration: 13 / 9
Soot: 0.3% / 0.1%

Aluminum, Iron, and Sodium are all still a little higher than I would like ... but could be inherited.

Z:

How many miles on the 2nd sample?

mparker326 said:

Z:

How many miles on the 2nd sample?

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Whoops, important info - 5000 miles on 2nd sample.

SUNRG said:

Oil = ELF Solaris LSX 5w30 VW50501 - BMWLL04 - MB229.51
9ppm Fe wear in 6003 miles equates to an Fe wear rate of 1.5ppm / 1000 miles during this oil sample interval.

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Holy cow! That's basically no wear

What is your driving style and commute?

SUNRG said:

Oil = ELF Solaris LSX 5w30 VW50501 - BMWLL04 - MB229.51
9ppm Fe wear in 6003 miles equates to an Fe wear rate of 1.5ppm / 1000 miles during this oil sample interval.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/ELF_Solaris_LSX_87481ODO_60.jpg

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Just saw this - pretty good

No cas for additive regeneration here.

wjdell said:

Just saw this - pretty good

No cas for additive regeneration here.

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i agree. i first observed the immediate wear protection the new lowSAPS additives provide here - LINK

Update

The results are back. I sampled the Elf FullTech when I changed the oil to Rotella. I drove that for 60 mi, installed fresh Rotella, drove for ~40 mi, then sampled. The filter was changed both times. How does this look?

Original post #368. I followed SUNRG's recommendations in post #370.

In three OCI's you will see - I suggest you test before 10k with your previos history. You will also see that nothing can replace a strong hydrodynamic layer. VIS 14+.

good job XJ. i don't know why Al and Si are at 5 already - but i'm glad we know where these and all other numbers are - i.e. we know what the starting point is. your future UOAs are going to be very informative. plus, it's nice to be able to confirm that for the first time in a long time your engine has truly fresh clean oil to work with. good luck and i'm very much looking forward to your 5042 mile UOA result.

3rd UOA, this time on Bypass Filter.

This is my third UOA on my '05 Jetta Wagon PD. This last UOA includes the dieselgeek bypass filter installed. Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you.

What was the oil in the first UOA - Your engine was doing well in the 2nd UOA and the thrid is no surprise. It seems that you have a good motor and the last 2 OCI's have done very well. If the trend continues you will be below the national average in wear on your next OCI.

wjdell said:

What was the oil in the first UOA - Your engine was doing well in the 2nd UOA and the thrid is no surprise. It seems that you have a good motor and the last 2 OCI's have done very well. If the trend continues you will be below the national average in wear on your next OCI.

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Thanks for your insight. The first and second UOA's were with Motul 505.01, the older formulation. This third one is with the full synthetic Motul and the bypass filter. I'm thinking that the motor is finally fully broken in, at least that's my hope.

Nellie said:

This is my third UOA on my '05 Jetta Wagon PD.

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I had to laugh at the comments... Blackstone thinks you have a PowerStroke engine in your Jetta.

TornadoRed said:

I had to laugh at the comments... Blackstone thinks you have a PowerStroke engine in your Jetta.

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Does that concern anyone else but me? Are acceptable wear rates and thresholds etc. different for different diesel engines?

How many total mines on your engine? How long was the bypass installed for this change?

TornadoRed said:

I had to laugh at the comments... Blackstone thinks you have a PowerStroke engine in your Jetta.

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I was also thinking "what's up with that?", but then I read further and they refered to the Jetta. Perhaps it doesn't matter when looking at the ppm wear metals?

At the time of the sample there were 63,000 miles on the engine. The bypass filter was installed at the last oil change, approx. 7,700 miles on the oil.

Question for those more knowledgable. I changed the oil after taking the sample, but didn't change the bypass filter because I read that I don't need to change it every time, but every other time. Should I have dumped the oil that was in the bypass filter? It's something I just plain didn't think about at the time, but now realize that I didn't really do a complete change, but only a partial change. Do you think I need to do the oil chane again?