Another 2260 Build

P.S.: I would come to the GTG tomorrow if it weren't for the fact that my car still has unrepaired damage from a deer hit in northern NY state last week and I was pulled over twice by NY state police driving home north of the border for the missing headlamp (it was fine after I showed the accident report).

I completely missed anything you might have mentioned regarding your mods, particularly the pistons and what you have done to reduce the compression ratio. I just read yesterday that your compression test came in at only 360 PSI.

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I try to keep all that info in the op. MrChill would be the one to ask about exactly what was done to the pistons, and he has not been able to provde me with much info up till now. As previously posted I have a PD150 block/crank and modified ceramic coated pistons. As I recall, what ever was done to lower the compression on the pistons was not dramatic, as they did not look much different than the stock pistons I had to compare them too at the time.

As far as the compression goes. I've had it checked twice with substantially different results 360 vs 425. So the jury is still out on that count.

Based on that, I estimate that your end of compression temperature is getting at best up to about 450 degrees Celsius.

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What are you saying here?

Unfortunately without this sorted out, IMHO I predict that a cam comparo is not going to give very promising or flattering results to any non-stock cam...

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My car will not be used to test your cam today. Chill is using his car as the test mule.

I had to develop a very complicated spreadsheet together with TDIsyncro to calculate this, as shown below.

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Interesting, but I cant see the data on my screen and am not sure how it applies here.

Too bad about the deer. I'm surprized the police stopped you. We'll be doing this again next year in preparation for the Maxton Mile, if they ever post a schedule so I can get things put together.

ChippedNotBroken said:

What are you saying here?

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What I'm saying is that it's low. Sorry for not clarifying. Maybe try running a tank of that exotic Hi-Per synthetic super-high cetane fuel that one of the member vendor sells.

My car will not be used to test your cam today. Chill is using his car as the test mule.

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My bad. Apologies for the confusion. Been busy and not been following developments here.

Interesting, but I cant see the data on my screen and am not sure how it applies here.

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My intention was only to illustrate that it's more involved than most people do it. Granted, we are going to oversized pistons and doing other mods like deeper valve relief pockets, making the calculations more involved.

This is about 1/4 of the smoke I was getting in ohio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxwuHTvW3Tw

wow a video!!! nice thats a smoker! what gear did you start out in? that was not a typical 1-2 in a 5 spd sound.. I know you have a 6 but did you start out in 1st or 2nd?

diesel-dave said:

wow a video!!! nice thats a smoker! what gear did you start out in? that was not a typical 1-2 in a 5 spd sound.. I know you have a 6 but did you start out in 1st or 2nd?

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That is a 1, 2 shift, don't remember if I had time to make it into third. I can do nearly 70 in 2d.

If you look closely at the first pass, the headlights from the car in the other lane disappear into the smoke and re-appear after a few seconds.

ya that's awesome, thats a steep 1st! not like the granny in the 02j

nice car BTW I'd throw a set of VW rims on it and finish your tuning then it would be perfect

more videos please, great you tube videos can be made with that car..

Yeah the smoke is still pretty bad tbh. I think 0 to 70 in a second may be a little over exagerated though

Interesting results Ron I'm keeping an eye on this thread for sure!

Keebler145 said:

Yeah the smoke is still pretty bad tbh. I think 0 to 70 in a second may be a little over exagerated though

Interesting results Ron I'm keeping an eye on this thread for sure!

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He means 2nd gear.

You were getting 4 times that in Ohio!?

Yeah dude you have NO idea how much smoke was coming out of that car when he first brought it back.. 4X is about right..

yeah it was really bad at Matt's GTG lol.

I was just joking with him anyway Bob, but good point I didn't notice that!

I turned my 209 hp with a smoky, dyno only, tune. It wasn't even twice that smoky

Bowl volume along with the volume of the valve reliefs(not modified) not occupied by the valves is about 26.5cc. From there, we need to know what all the other dead air volume and HG volume is along with protrusion of both valves and pistons in order to calculate estimated compression. Given that stock is typically 22.5cc, then one would argue that th compression is pretty low...though thats what was asked for. My last set in mt car was 29cc. It yielded a cr of 15.5 as I recall...I'll look at my sheet to verify. Yes....really low...but I did it for a reason. Testing for other things. I am currently running 18.3 for now, till a build another set of pistons.

mrchill said:

Bowl volume along with the volume of the valve reliefs(not modified) not occupied by the valves is about 26.5cc. From there, we need to know what all the other dead air volume and HG volume is along with protrusion of both valves and pistons in order to calculate estimated compression. Given that stock is typically 22.5cc, then one would argue that th compression is pretty low...though thats what was asked for. My last set in mt car was 29cc. It yielded a cr of 15.5 as I recall...I'll look at my sheet to verify. Yes....really low...but I did it for a reason. Testing for other things. I am currently running 18.3 for now, till a build another set of pistons.

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The question I am wrestling with at this point, am i better off getting a turbo that is easier to spool, or higher compression pistons.

ChippedNotBroken said:

The question I am wrestling with at this point, am i better off getting a turbo that is easier to spool, or higher compression pistons.

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I can answer that for you


TURBO!

get the Audi version it yields good results

mrchill said:

My last set in my car was 29cc. It yielded a cr of 15.5 as I recall...I'll look at my sheet to verify. Yes....really low...but I did it for a reason. Testing for other things.

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When you were running this car, did it have uber crazy amounts of smoke?
What nozzles and pump were you running at that time?

I haven't read your whole thread. Have you gotten a different tune from the first?
I've had my tune adjusted from the first one to where it is at now, it made a huge difference. At first I had too much fuel so I had that dropped and my spool up was somewhat slow and Malone was able to make the turbo respond MUCH quicker - same as when my actuator was set at 1inHg(from the factory), I'm now at 4inHg and response is the same or close to when it was way too short(was laggy on the first tune @ 4inHg). You should post some logs to look at, group 11 on VCDS.


Jon

JFettig said:

I haven't read your whole thread. Have you gotten a different tune from the first?
I've had my tune adjusted from the first one to where it is at now, it made a huge difference. At first I had too much fuel so I had that dropped and my spool up was somewhat slow and Malone was able to make the turbo respond MUCH quicker - same as when my actuator was set at 1inHg(from the factory), I'm now at 4inHg and response is the same or close to when it was way too short(was laggy on the first tune @ 4inHg). You should post some logs to look at, group 11 on VCDS.

Jon

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I'm on my second tune (depending on how you count them) and have been told by the tuner that I need to replace my pistons with stock pistons. I am assuming that the reason for this is to get the turbo to spool quicker. That is why I am weighing the options of either stock pistons or a turbo that just inherently spools faster.

The car starts at 25 degrees without much issue. It billows white smoke for a minute or so while it warms up. It is weak in the knees till you start to get into boost. None of that bugs me at all, what bugs me is that once I get into boost we can't clear the smoke. If I need compression earlier in the cycle to clear the smoke I figure there are two ways to get there. Either a turbo that will spool earlier under the current conditions or higher compression pistons.

Higher compression won't clear the smoke up top when the turbo is singing.. it might smoke a little less, but it won't be clean.. When that 4bar map shows up we'll see a little more about what's going on.. we'll need to use a boost gauge that goes up a little higher for testing.. I have a fuel pressure gauge that will do the trick for now.. we'll get everything together hardware wise, then let Jeff get the tune as good as it can be and see how it runs..

There's a fine line between big enough nozzles to get the turbo spinning and nozzles that are too big and do nothing but smoke up top..

I wonder how much pressure the 2260v can put out safely.. anyone have a compressor map for it?

Isn't this the same hairdryer that Turbo Johan struggled to get quick spool with low smoke on his Audi? But then again, he made 300bhp with it too IIRC...

ChippedNotBroken said:

That is why I am weighing the options of either stock pistons or a turbo that just inherently spools faster.

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I've got one of the new generation 15's that I'll trade you. Spools like a mother when it gets a good shot of fuel, just don't look to it to clear up the high end smoke - ask me how I know.

Farfromovin said:

Odd you blew a random fuse? I guess the VW gods are tossing stuff at you left and right then? Hopefully you can get some low end oomph back after tomorrows visit to the tuner!

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It's not odd. It's a VW. And it's a 99.5. They're full of interesting gremlins.

The best I have heard from that BMW unit from 1.9TDI is around 250hp.

Now its time for twins You have low enough compression now to handle 45PSI or even more. 17/52 hybrid and some cheap Holset or BW S256 and all your smoke isuues are solved. Might need a 5bar MAP tough

Ah...but will then 1752 turbine and housing be able to pass enough exhaust gasses to make a compound setup like that work? My research says no. But...I could be wrong.

mrchill said:

Ah...but will then 1752 turbine and housing be able to pass enough exhaust gasses to make a compound setup like that work? My research says no. But...I could be wrong.

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That 17 would pop in a hurry. The turbine runs out of flow pretty quick so you'd have to bypass it with a wastegate.

hatemi said:

The best I have heard from that BMW unit from 1.9TDI is around 250hp.

Now its time for twins You have low enough compression now to handle 45PSI or even more. 17/52 hybrid and some cheap Holset or BW S256 and all your smoke isuues are solved. Might need a 5bar MAP tough

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250hp is that whp or crank? If crank then Joe TDI was getting about that with a 17/52 before he put his car into a blender and I'm not that far off now with the smoke.

I knew from the start that twins would be the best solution, but there aren't enough out there so the $$$ for getting one put together and tuned that won't toast my engine is a tad out of my league. I've been thinking about both the 17/52 and the Audi GTB22/60vk but want to exhaust a few more options with my current setup to see what works.

At some point the head is going to have to come off so we can see what is going on in the combustion chamber. That is, most likely, the time I will make the hard choices.

I was reading that TDIinTexas was going to put in 16:1 compression pistons. If it happens any time soon I will be watching those results with interest.

I may not be keeping track, but it seems that I read that old poopie and OCTDI (or is it OCDTDI?) have got 2260s on their cars and have good results. Wonder what's different about their setups? I know that one is a PD, but might be worth investigating.

Well, they are running the GTB2260VK units Peter, that seems to be all the difference.

What about compression? Have they modified pistons? I also have a customer in California who bought one of these turbos, I should try to track him down and see how it's working.