Have You Considered The Price of Gasoline?

HBarlow · Sep 13, 2016

Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

langer · Sep 13, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

Sure I've thought about it. But, try and use logic when deciding on a car that your wife wants to purchase. That's why I know we are going to end up with a 4Runner. Talk about craptastic fuel economy. Ah well, 'tis life and a happy wife. I hate filling up my gti with 93 and I'll hate it even more filling up the 4Runner's tank.

Airpizz6 · Sep 13, 2016

langer said:
Sure I've thought about it. But, try and use logic when deciding on a car that your wife wants to purchase. That's why I know we are going to end up with a 4Runner. Talk about craptastic fuel economy. Ah well, 'tis life and a happy wife. I hate filling up my gti with 93 and I'll hate it even more filling up the 4Runner's tank.

I'm not so unfortunate. The wife wants an MB E-Class. A late model E-250 BlueTec will make us both happy.

BPofMD · Sep 13, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

Exactly why I bought an MKZ Hybrid! Diesel will go up higher than gas too. We don't ALL live in Texas. Oh yeah, IF I want to floor the Lincoln, it is quicker than the Passat.

pparks1 · Sep 13, 2016

Yes, I thought about the price of gasoline and the decrease in mileage that I am going to get as a result of moving away from my diesel. Now, I planned to take the buyback for the record because the amount of money given back was too good to turn down. As luck would have it, my car was damaged in an accident and subsequently totaled by insurance.

There were no other real diesels out there (besides a used Passat TDI) that fit my budget and space requirements. I looked at hybrids, but the trunk space (or lack thereof), was simply not going to cut it for the family vacations and the daughters trips to dance nationals where the Passat trunk was just big enough.

So, I tried to find a car comparable in size to my Passat and comparable in price. I went for the most fuel efficient engine offered on that car. Could have gotten a V6, but the i4 will be a bit less costly on the gasoline side.

Then, we also have the other costs which should be less costly. No need to do fuel filter change every 20k miles, no need to do DSG service every 40k. Oil changes are only $40 on the new car versus $80 on the TDI. Fuel prices go up on diesel in the winter months here in Michigan. Over the 3 years I owned my Diesel (July 2013 to Aug 2016), my average price for diesel in Michigan was $3.19 This was right out of fuelly.. In the winter, it won't take my gasser nearly as long to warm up as my TDI. I also don't have to leave the car running to let it complete any regen cycles.

While gasoline prices could double, it's currently at $2.13 in Michigan. Back in 2013, I was paying about $4.19 a gallon in Michigan for diesel fuel, which is just about 2x the price.

So yes, it will be hard to say goodbye to that great mileage. But I can still sleep comfortably at night knowing that my long term maintenance is going to be lower, I'm back under a factory warranty, and I can fill the gasoline tank to the tippy top in much less time than it took on the diesel as I waited for the foam to go down.

pparks1 · Sep 13, 2016

langer said:
I hate filling up my gti with 93 and I'll hate it even more filling up the 4Runner's tank.

The 4 runner doesn't require 93, does it?

n1das · Sep 13, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

I haven't worried about the price of gasoline one bit since I stopped using the stuff more than 10 years ago.

People have short memories. Sales of big gas guzzler vehicles have gone up with the drop in fuel prices. We know owners of these vehicles will be the first to complain when fuel prices go back up.

oilhammer · Sep 13, 2016

I've had both gas and diesel powered cars, mostly Volkswagens, for as long as I have been driving. I never really pay much attention to fuel prices. I prefer my diesels for every day use because they simply perform better in the real world while using less fuel. In every case of TDI I own or have owned, I have also have/had the gasoline fueled version of the same car. So I have a pretty good handle on the difference, and it is pretty clear to me.

sandydeb · Sep 13, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

The first statement no longer holds as true as it did before, when you consider that

1) Gas engines have come a long way and turbo gas engines generate fairly decent gas mileage. The new Civic 1.5T is EPA rated 42 highway compared to 45 for the Jetta TDI. The Civic smokes the Jetta TDI 0-6 at 6.7 seconds to 8.4 seconds. I sense most neutral observers would apply the 'oddball econobox' tag to the TDI.

2) The 'extra' kick to fuel efficiency (easily exceeding EPA estimates) in TDIs was - as we know now - driven by fraud.

3) You are still expected to pony up about $2.5k extra for the TDI.

4) The bad metric used stateside (mpg) hides the fact that the fuel consumption improvement is much more marginal now. Quoting Gallons/100 miles (as done in europe) makes more sense as that directly correlates to actual cost. Said differently, going from 15 to 20mpg reduces fuel costs by 25%. Going from 40 to 45 mpg reduces costs by only 11%.

5) In many parts of the country (including where I live - NJ) diesel is sold at higher price than gas. I have paid as much as 65c over regular gas.

TDIs made sense - even with the price premium, when gas was at $3+ and you could expect about 15mpg boost in mileage (30s to mid 40s). Irrespective of where gas prices go, the latter no longer holds true. You now get a 3-4mpg boost at best for a weaker engine.

No deal.

chadbag · Sep 13, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

My driving needs have changed since I originally got my TDIs. I was commuting each day 45 miles plus a longer trip in addition each week. Now I am not. I still have the one longer trip, but most of my driving is short range city driving trips.

That is hardly ideal for a diesel. To replace one of our JSW I bought an Audi e-tron plug-in gas/electric hybrid. A majority of my driving is done on the electric side. I still have the one (soon to be 2 I found out this week) longer trips of 70-75 miles roundtrip a week. I run 3+ weeks between fill ups and that on a 10.6 gallon tank. My cost of electricity, per mile, is approximately 1/2 that of gas. If gasoline goes up, then the electric costs will be even less. I am contemplating swapping out the 17" wheels for 16" wheels (an Audi supported config) as the 16" configuration gets better MPG, but low-mid 30s on gas only combined is not bad anyway, and I've been getting about 75mpg combined city/highway when taking electric into consideration (but not the electric cost). FOR MY DRIVING it is a better car than the diesel was. When I was commuting every day almost 50 miles, the diesel was definitely better.

For our other JSW we have ordered a Volvo V60. It gets pretty good MPG according to the charts -- we don't have it yet to get our real world MPG. MPG was one thing I looked at.

We've only been getting 34.5-36.5 combined city/highway with the TDIs the last while anyway for some reason (used to be 36-40). I suspect an engine flash though the dealer claimed they had not done a flash at the maintenance visit I was accusing them of doing it

. So the TDI, for our driving needs right now, are not getting appreciably more than a gasser in the same driving conditions would get.

Gasoline right now in our area for regular is about 10% less than diesel. For premium they are comparable -- within 5 cents or so. I use a mid grade+ alcohol free gas that is about the same cost as premium.

In our area, diesel can vary widely in comparison with gas. It can be up to 20% less, but then it can be 20% or greater more. Depending on the time of year, markets, etc.

All in all, I consider the price of gasoline now and in the future very strongly and look to get the best MPG I can for the car choices I have and the style of driving we do now. With my current work-at-home gig, which has been my gig more often than not the last 10 years (a 3 year span of commuting, right when we got the TDI), I expect the same driving needs to prevail in the near future.

Someone who commutes 50-100 miles a day will have different needs and a different outlook.

linux_author · Sep 13, 2016

mileage and performance was a bonus for us... the real reason we got our TDI SportWagen was the build quality, ergonomics, handling, cargo space, etc.

most other cars, foreign and domestic in its price range, are pieces of charlie romeo alpha papa

we're keeping our Wagen - we like it a lot - best vehicle we've ever owned

willie
on the lovin' our TDI Gulf of Mexico

rgoetz · Sep 13, 2016

My wife prefers driving our JSW (which we'll keep for another year or two) over our new GTI, which she is already calling our "gas guzzler" (and which requires at least 91 octane).

edge130 · Sep 13, 2016

I don't afree with the OP either

Your post sounds like it says that gas currently low right now but will shoot up in cost later., while what?, diesel will still be the same?

Diesel will track with the gasoline. When I purchased the 09 Jetta, dirsel was $2.05 I think a little lower than gas.
Then it did the flip and became higher in price than gas. It seems to go through these economic evolutions every now anfpd then. Once cheaper than gas, then another time more expensive than gas

Its been my observation that any savings in the mpg with the diesel over gas is eaten up by the higher diesel costs, the higher mainteance costs for the diesel

Engine oil costs more for the 507 spec than other oils for gas engines.
I save on spark plugs, but had to eat $110 for one glowplug w/ pressure sensor

Ive replaced pricy fuel filters for the diesel vs no fuel filters for my gas toyota

I do my own maintenace but i spend more hours on the tdi vs toyota

Dsg fluid & filter are more expensive that trans fluid maintenance for toyota

bhtooefr · Sep 13, 2016

I did consider the future cost of gasoline when deciding on my TDI's replacement.

I went from 35 MPG on B20 on my short commute to 50-60 MPG on RUG, in a better handling, larger car, with lower maintenance costs. And, breaking 50 on road trips was rare in my TDI, it's common in my replacement. Yes, it's slower, but if my ALH had been stock, it'd be another story.

bubbagumpshrimp · Sep 13, 2016

Since shortly after the 2306 recall...my fuel economy has sucked. I don't even remember the last time I had a tank that averaged 40+ MPG. Diesel is $0.20/gallon more than regular unleaded for me. If I dumped my car and got an Accord (32+ MPG highway)...I'm going to do just fine. Add to that sluggish/jerky acceleration and frequent regens and I'll be happy to get out of this thing.

Perfectreign · Sep 13, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide.

It has been difficult to justify a diesel here in the states, especially with the CARB and EPA peeps set against the fuel source. In England, where I was paying $10.00 per gallon a few years back (while driving a Passat), I can understand the need for using diesel. (In fact, my wife's cousin may be putting pink diesel into his Mitsubishi Pajero SUV over there in England.)

My beautiful young bride leased a new '15 Passat with the tiny 1.8t engine. Having driven it, I see no issues with the engine size, and am amazed she gets around 500mi per tank, which comes out to around 30mpg.

Mark SF · Sep 13, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

I'm going to buy a number of oil futures with my buyback money. Lots of ETFs out there that would do it. OIL, or even a double-leveraged one. That way I'm immune to the cost of fuel.

Perfectreign · Sep 13, 2016

Mark SF said:
I'm going to buy a number of oil futures with my buyback money. Lots of ETFs out there that would do it. OIL, or even a double-leveraged one. That way I'm immune to the cost of fuel.

FWIW, the US had been heavily dependent on foreign import sources. We're not so much these days. In fact, about 30% of our imports are from our (hopefully) friendly neighbor to the north, Canada. Also, we apparently export a bunch of oil as well.

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=727&t=6

I have at least three friends who are driving electric-gas hybrids (Volt, Fusion Energi) and are charging using their home solar panels.

Mark_J · Sep 13, 2016

In NW Washington gas is lower than diesel in the winter, as much as $.30 per gal. But in the summer diesel has always been cheaper than as by the same $.30 per gal. So it evens out. I work in a refinery and we are now ramping up to produce stove oil for heating back east, which decreased the amount of diesel for vehicles. But in the spring and summer we produce all diesel so there is more supply. Also in the summer we make diesel with a freeze of +20 degrees F and in the winter it can be as much ad -30 F which is not as easy to make so costs more to make. With a colder freeze, the diesel is lighter, so less BTU's which is why we get worse mileage in the winter. And it doesn't matter if you live in the south, every station carries the colder freeze diesel because a semi can fill in California and drive to much colder areas on that same tank of fuel, and they don't want it to gel up.

Basenji · Sep 13, 2016

BPofMD said:
Exactly why I bought an MKZ Hybrid! Diesel will go up higher than gas too. We don't ALL live in Texas. Oh yeah, IF I want to floor the Lincoln, it is quicker than the Passat.

I got the same car, a MKZ hybrid. Been getting about the same milage as the A3 TDI and it handles about the same as the A3 when in Sport Mode. 40 more horses and it is a bit quicker.

GyroRon · Sep 14, 2016

I think depending on what gas car you pick, the extra cost of fuel ( because the gas engine doesn't give the same MPG as the diesel ) can be offset with lower purchase, and maintenance / repair costs.

Using 3$ a gallon cost on fuel, gas or diesel, if you drive 15,000 miles per year in a diesel getting 45 mpg your fuel cost was $1000..... If you drive the same 15K in a gasser getting 30 mpg your fuel cost was $1500.... $500 more for the same miles, But the diesel car had a price premium of 2500-3500$ new, then you also have to factor in the higher service costs as well along with the cost of Adblue etc... At $500 a year savings on fuel it would take at least 5 years just to break even on the purchase price cost difference, then additional year or two to break even on the increased cost of maintenance.

Of course the numbers would be different if you were still looking for as high MPG as you could get with a gasser. 30 mpg is a good average number for a larger car like a Camry or a accord or fusion optima etc.... If you picked a smaller gas car that is all about MPG you could see 38-40 mpg average. At 38 mpg your spending $1185 a year on fuel verses the diesel's cost of $1000. So only $185 more per year. It would take 13 and a half years to just pay for the price premium of a diesel engine over gas engine at 185$ a year in fuel savings.

At todays lower prices its even less savings for the diesel. Lets say fuel is 2$ a gallon, gas or diesel... 15,000 miles at 45 mpg costs you $667. 15,000 at 38 mpg costs you $789. 15,000 miles at 30 mpg costs you $1000.

Locally to me, diesel is around 2.10$ a gallon while gas is running about 1.80$ a gallon. Using those prices, 15K at 45 mpg in the diesel costs $700 where as 30mpg in the gasser costs $900. The diesel saves $200 a year at todays prices in comparison to a gasser. I know in 15K there is at least one oil change if not two and the added cost of the diesel oil change would easily cost 50$ more. bringing the cost difference down to $150.

Yeah Ill miss my diesel, but my wallet won't suffer as hard as you would think long term.

I say that because mpg still matters to me and I didn't replace my TDI with a 14 mpg 4runner or chevy suburban. I bought a Camry four cylinder that should average out to at least 30mpg. The people who are replacing their TDI with vehicles that average 20mpg or lower will be in a different boat. 15K at 18mpg at $2.00 a gallon are at $1667.... at $3.00 a gallon they are at $2500. That is $1000 a year more than the TDI at 2$ a gallon or $1500 more per year than the TDI at 3$ a gallon. Yikes

tikal · Sep 14, 2016

For some of us that still have our B5.5 wagons it will continue to be the "most bang for the money" no matter how efficient similar size gasoline cars get (with comparable cargo size).

Also I doubt the Mazda 6 wagon will ever make it to the US (even with a gasoline engine).

oilhammer · Sep 14, 2016

tikal said:
For some of us that still have our B5.5 wagons it will continue to be the "most bang for the money" no matter how efficient similar size gasoline cars get (with comparable cargo size).

Also I doubt the Mazda 6 wagon will ever make it to the US (even with a gasoline engine).

The 6 wagon has already been here. They did not sell many, but you could get them. Of course, all they really are (were) is a Michigan-built Ford Mondeo reskinned to look like a Mazda and they rust faster than anything I've seen since the IH Scout.

We have a regular customer with one. With the Duratec V6 and a slushbox. It is a piece of rusty crap.

tikal · Sep 14, 2016

I was thinking more of the newer Mazda 6 wagons (SkyActiv) available in other places such as Europe and Asia. Here is an example (2016) getting around 30 MPG:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/mazda/6/2016?engineconfig_id=&bodytype_id=2&submodel_id=

And one 2015 model averaging around 33 MPG:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/mazda/6/2015?engineconfig_id=&bodytype_id=2&submodel_id=

We have a Mazda 5 which has done well in 10 years of ownership (very low maintenance costs) but the mileage is very mediocre because runs on gasoline (20 to 24 MPG range depending on city vs. hwy).

pknopp · Sep 14, 2016

BPofMD said:
Exactly why I bought an MKZ Hybrid! Diesel will go up higher than gas too. We don't ALL live in Texas. Oh yeah, IF I want to floor the Lincoln, it is quicker than the Passat.

I've looked at the MKZ Hybrid and I love them. Great car. Just not practical for me. I've used my JSW almost as a truck. I mentioned the Lincoln to my wife and she correctly noted that I couldn't haul the stuff that I do in my JSW in a Lincoln.

I haven't brought it back up but if I can find a really good deal on one I still might consider it and then get a beater truck also.

On topic......I still far prefer a diesel, I just hate the complications required to get one to pass emissions. Filters and fluids and things to go bad.

BPofMD · Sep 14, 2016

Basenji said:
I got the same car, a MKZ hybrid. Been getting about the same milage as the A3 TDI and it handles about the same as the A3 when in Sport Mode. 40 more horses and it is a bit quicker.

AND !! We don't have exploding airbags!

oilhammer · Sep 14, 2016

tikal said:
I was thinking more of the newer Mazda 6 wagons (SkyActiv) available in other places such as Europe and Asia. Here is an example (2016) getting around 30 MPG:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/mazda/6/2016?engineconfig_id=&bodytype_id=2&submodel_id=

And one 2015 model averaging around 33 MPG:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/mazda/6/2015?engineconfig_id=&bodytype_id=2&submodel_id=

We have a Mazda 5 which has done well in 10 years of ownership (very low maintenance costs) but the mileage is very mediocre because runs on gasoline (20 to 24 MPG range depending on city vs. hwy).

Yep, the 5 (a Ford Focus with a top hat) is a neat little package. Reminds me of the Eagle Summit Wagon (rebadged Mitsubishi Expo LRV) I had a few years back. It is a nice blend of car/van/SUV/station wagon, and the 5 could be had with a proper manual gearbox to boot!

Don't care for the styling of the second gen 5 (or any newer Mazda, really). Too swoopy and strange looking.

coloradogolftdi · Sep 14, 2016

HBarlow said:
Most of us purchased a VW TDI at least in part because of the excellent fuel mileage they provide. Turbo-diesel fuel economy is almost always better than gasoline powered cars with the possible exception of several odd ball econoboxes that few would drive.

I'm surprised by the number of members who have so quickly abandoned their TDI for a new gasoline powered car. Gasoline prices are attractively low right now but low gas prices are never permanent.

The price of crude oil always fluctuates with world and US economies and supply and demand. How will new gasoline car owners feel about their cars when gasoline prices double as they surely will?

Many times since 2012 my Diesel was much more expensive then regular gas. Typically enough that my 42mpg was really more like 38mpg once I figured in the cost in gas difference. It truly does vary a lot. Plenty of gas cars get 36mpg now. Owning a diesel for me was not only about saving money. It was about not driving a car that just felt gutless much of the time.

ZippyNH · Sep 14, 2016

GyroRon said:
I think depending on what gas car you pick, the extra cost of fuel ( because the gas engine doesn't give the same MPG as the diesel ) can be offset with lower purchase, and maintenance / repair costs.

Using 3$ a gallon cost on fuel, gas or diesel, if you drive 15,000 miles per year in a diesel getting 45 mpg your fuel cost was $1000..... If you drive the same 15K in a gasser getting 30 mpg your fuel cost was $1500.... $500 more for the same miles, But the diesel car had a price premium of 2500-3500$ new, then you also have to factor in the higher service costs as well along with the cost of Adblue etc... At $500 a year savings on fuel it would take at least 5 years just to break even on the purchase price cost difference, then additional year or two to break even on the increased cost of maintenance.

Of course the numbers would be different if you were still looking for as high MPG as you could get with a gasser. 30 mpg is a good average number for a larger car like a Camry or a accord or fusion optima etc.... If you picked a smaller gas car that is all about MPG you could see 38-40 mpg average. At 38 mpg your spending $1185 a year on fuel verses the diesel's cost of $1000. So only $185 more per year. It would take 13 and a half years to just pay for the price premium of a diesel engine over gas engine at 185$ a year in fuel savings.

At todays lower prices its even less savings for the diesel. Lets say fuel is 2$ a gallon, gas or diesel... 15,000 miles at 45 mpg costs you $667. 15,000 at 38 mpg costs you $789. 15,000 miles at 30 mpg costs you $1000.

Locally to me, diesel is around 2.10$ a gallon while gas is running about 1.80$ a gallon. Using those prices, 15K at 45 mpg in the diesel costs $700 where as 30mpg in the gasser costs $900. The diesel saves $200 a year at todays prices in comparison to a gasser. I know in 15K there is at least one oil change if not two and the added cost of the diesel oil change would easily cost 50$ more. bringing the cost difference down to $150.

Yeah Ill miss my diesel, but my wallet won't suffer as hard as you would think long term.

I say that because mpg still matters to me and I didn't replace my TDI with a 14 mpg 4runner or chevy suburban. I bought a Camry four cylinder that should average out to at least 30mpg. The people who are replacing their TDI with vehicles that average 20mpg or lower will be in a different boat. 15K at 18mpg at $2.00 a gallon are at $1667.... at $3.00 a gallon they are at $2500. That is $1000 a year more than the TDI at 2$ a gallon or $1500 more per year than the TDI at 3$ a gallon. Yikes

Lots of good points..
But the feel of that 30 mpg gas car sucks on hills.....many more shifts, more noise, etc....
The feel of a diesel, the fact it just PULLS hard up a hill...no shift in a car 99% of the time, without even loosing speed if the cruise is on makes it feel more like a v6 car or larger gas motor that might be a 20 mpg car....
So other comparisons might be appropriate....
But as a pure $$ choice, maybe a tdi is not a clear winner....but not every choice is based on $$.

Perfectreign · Sep 14, 2016

GyroRon said:
I say that because mpg still matters to me and I didn't replace my TDI with a 14 mpg 4runner or chevy suburban. I bought a Camry four cylinder that should average out to at least 30mpg.

Too bad they don't have a Duramax Suburban!

ZippyNH said:
The feel of a diesel, the fact it just PULLS hard up a hill...no shift in a car 99% of the time, without even loosing speed if the cruise is on makes it feel more like a v6 car or larger gas motor that might be a 20 mpg car....

You make a good point. While my beautiful young bride doesn't really go up hills in her Passat, I had a manger who did.

He commuted about 45 miles each way to work. His commute was from a valley city (San Bernardino) at about 1,000 ft elevation over a mountain pass at about 4,000 ft elevation then back to his city. He replaced a 4Runner getting roughly 18mpg with a Camry 4-banger. Because of the weight of the car and the under-torqued engine, he ended up getting only 17mpg average. Within a year, he ditched the four-cylinder and got a six.

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