Calling B5 Owners w/BS delete.

StayPuff

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Location
Northern IL
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG
Looking to buy a B5, have found one that is quite possibly near-mint condition and would like to know from those who have done the balance shaft delete, if you would do it again or go the gear route instead. I know the extreme cost difference between the two...and can do either of them myself. Now that there has been lots of time since these two methods were put into use, which one is the best route that will yield me the most dependability and longevity? Thanks guys, and if there is anything else besides coolant migration I need to watch out for, I would appreciate it :)
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Deleted, now with about 3yrs and 150,000k on mine.

As far as long term longevity and dependability, No question in my mind that the delete is the way to go.

The only niggle I have on mine is that there is a slightly increased vibration around 2000rpm. It is barely noticable on my car in the summer when the engine and transmission mounts are always warm. In the winter below freezing, it is noticeable until the car is fully warmed up.

Either way I would do the delete again if I had to do another one.

Coolant migration is not as much of an issue in these cars as it was in the Jetta/Golfs (that I have heard of).

The three biggee's in these cars is the BSM, the transmission, and the cam.

Of lesser consequence is the coolant manifold at the back of the head, and the tandem pump located above it.

Check the front suspension on your prospect car, as there are a lot of joints, and several worn can add up to $$$.
 

StayPuff

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Location
Northern IL
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG
Thanks Windex. Will definitely check the joints. I will have to look up the transmission issue. I wasn't aware of that one.
 

boobap

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Location
fallon, NV
TDI
BHW
I deleted mine about 2 months ago...will never look back. Plus I like the increase in oil pressure that the ALH pump provides. The vibrations did increase in my car at idle and slightly at highway speeds.
 

deckerfl

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Location
Falls Church, VA
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon TDI W/ Geared BSM, DUK 5Spd.
I'll chime in from the Geared side...
I did the geared BSM, before the delete option was really an option. I'm happy with the results now. 4 years and 50K miles. no increase in vibes. And, this is the VW official repair whereas the BSM delete is not, I believe. Not that it really matters, as I doubt it'll ever be an issue.
BUT... it was pricy at $4K +, including labor.
 

fastcar4re

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2015 Jetta TDI SEL (purchased as "new" in May 2017).
I am of the same opinion as deckerfl. I am at 5 years and 52,000 miles with the geared BSM. I did that at about 97,000 miles ... then the cam, then the EGR cooler, then a group of $500 and up items like electric fan, mechanical fan, complete front control arm set, shocks, struts, multiple AC relays, multiple CV joints and CV boots, and a heater core (lots of labor for this job). I still really like the vehicle.
 
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zzdiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Location
sask. mostly now Wa.
TDI
05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
I have one geared and one deleted. I believe the geared one is smoother, slightly prefer it. The geared one about 70000 miles on it. One set of cv boots, one ac fan one replaced ac switch, verylittle else since the bsm major. timing belt kit, oops, bew cam. Uh, TC.
 

vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
I have done both many times. Personal cars run the delete. More pep and better mpg
 

d0u8l3m

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Location
Connecticut
TDI
B5.5 Passat
I did the delete with the BRM sprocket setup when I first got my car. I could notice the extra vibrations while sitting at a light at idle but while youre driving they are a non issue. The car runs great still a year later (probably put on 15-16k), and i just recently had the transmission swapped for a manual setup with a stage 2 tune. The car is fast as hell now and I don't regret saving money doing the delete. The extra vibes are gone now too since I'm using a dual mass flywheel from Frans.

I would say its a no-brainer IMO to go the delete route, the delete is cheaper and you are removing that stupid hex shaft which can still a point of failure even in a geared setup.
 

Passat'n Adventure

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Location
Augusta, GA area
TDI
05 Passat GLS Wagon - Deleted and 5 speeded '15 Passat SEL P
I have been running a delete for 140K+ miles now and as Windex says.... I have never looked back. As vwztips says - better mileage and more pep. It was a struggle to figure out which way to go when the time came, but I would not hesitate to do the same again.
 

Smokerr

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Alaska
TDI
Passat Wagon GL,2005,Silver
First I am a former mechanic, I have worked on a lot of stuff, 35 years.

I had ours done with the Timing Belt at 103,000. Some chain noise, not bad, no sudden increase just a slow steady one. Some odd vibrations on start and worse at low idle, would shake the car at times.

Being the inquisitive type and wanting to know and my own trophy, I had them put all the parts from the change out in a tub.

I then did an in depth look at all of them. This is my list of worst to best and the first two could be a swap (I don't have data on what a new chain was like for stretch and bend - doe not matter, more interested in which would fail first)

Chain: This is a fixed pin non bushing (roller) type chain. Its so odd (old tech) I have never seen one used before. his is the worst damned type of chain you can use, its so old tech that they probably quit using it after the Model T.
What should be rollers are literally the bushing. I found 6 areas that had serious wear on the sprocket side (fixed). It might have made 200K. Maybe.
The chain itself had a lot of flex and some stretch. from the flex I would say it was gone. Stretch, not as bad. How long? Unknown, as it turns twice engine speed in is driving a lot of *&^% no idea. I do know they can snap.

BM/OP: While this looked very good, the shaft between the one balance lobe and the Oil pump was failing. The hex was worn on all surfaces on the BM end. It was loose on the Oil Pump end (no wear). Maybe Oilhammer of MoGulf can explain it better. Overall it was very loose. Again, maybe 200k, could go sooner.

The sprockets looked ok and were not sharpened. The tensioner looked ok but looked to have been running out of range of tension (chain stretch).

I did talk to the tech, they have one mechanic who has one with 350k on it and still going.

From what I see on the chain I have no idea why.

To put the chain in perspective,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_chain#/media/File:Roller_Chain_Render_(with_numbers).png

You can see the pins, what you don't see is the pins are fixed, they don't roll over the sprocket, they slide over.

While I thought there was no fix, a modern chain with the high quality bushing setup would probably last 500k.

Keep in mind the quill shaft failure though.

I understand it got beefed up on the latter BM/OP and that's a plus.

The fact there is no slop in the chain causing a pulsation is a huge plus as well.

Mileage no better, maybe a bit worse. I will take that trade off.

I did appreciate they were willing to install the TDI block heater. Not someplace I can bend into anymore.

I am almost looking forward to winter now, oil heater, batteyr heater and block heater. Happy engine.

Someone maybe can update me on what the Coolant Migration is? Ours has been stellar for no adding.

Suspension is still tight, still running original shocks, probably do the rear next summer.

Brakes were done by non VW (as they would not put the battery blanket on the battery for me)
Some of that I would have tried myself but back not happy with those positions.

Coolant sensor was kaput and I got that changed while it was in.

VW did the work as I could not afford not to have a full warranty and they had referral to VW.
They seem to have done a good job as no issues in 2500 miles (which I know is not a lot)
 
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truman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 18, 2000
Location
columbia,MO,usa
TDI
'05 Passat Variant, Still miss the 03JW
Geared BSM with 175k on it. Today I might go delete just because it is cheaper and a more simple set up. My car was relatively new when it was converted and delete was not available. I still enjoy driving my BHW.
 

hevster1

Vendor
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Columbia NJ
TDI
98 NB
I have done quite a few of both. Here are my observations:
With the full delete your engine mounts need to be changed using OEM mounts. Otherwise you will rattle the fillings out of your mouth at idle.
I have seen 1 oil pump drive fail on a gear drive. I didn't do the installation.
Smoothness while driving is also affected with the full delete. Sometimes it's more predominant in certain cars.
These vehicles are meant to have the balance shafts in them. I have no idea what the long term effects will be. I am talking about 100K or more. I can imagine you will be needing engine mounts more frequently.
The delete is certainly less expensive overall.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
I have done quite a few of both. Here are my observations:
With the full delete your engine mounts need to be changed using OEM mounts. Otherwise you will rattle the fillings out of your mouth at idle.
I have seen 1 oil pump drive fail on a gear drive. I didn't do the installation.
Smoothness while driving is also affected with the full delete. Sometimes it's more predominant in certain cars.
These vehicles are meant to have the balance shafts in them. I have no idea what the long term effects will be. I am talking about 100K or more. I can imagine you will be needing engine mounts more frequently.
The delete is certainly less expensive overall.
All fair comments.

I changed the engine and transmission mounts on mine when I did the delete - I found a much greater improvement with the trans mounts over the engine mounts.

Also, Mine is a standard, not auto. Autos with the delete, cold, at a stop light have a decent amount of vibration which smoothes as the car warms. I have seen a few comment that they shift the car into neutral when this happens to limit the shaking.

There is apparently a 2.0PD engine in the EU that is essentially a balance-shaftless version of the BHW, so I don't subscribe to "these were only made to have a BSM" school of thought.

At the end of the day, the hex shaft - 70mm or 100mm is still a weak design which can destroy the engine - I'm much happier without mine. Some increased vibration is worth the piece of mind.
 

craws01

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Location
GA
TDI
Audi A3
I had one B5 with the delete and still have one geared. The geared has much more vibration than the delete had. But the delete had a 5 speed swap and the flywheel really smoothed it out nicely.
No issues with the geared unit though.
 

DezlDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Location
Richmond, B.C., Canada
TDI
2005 passat TDI Variant - United Grey
Geared since 2012. Done under warranty and it has been perfect since. The idle is smoother and quieter than than with the chain.
 

Smokerr

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Alaska
TDI
Passat Wagon GL,2005,Silver
I would say the base vibration with geared is a bit higher than when new with chain.

However, it does not vibrate the car at times like it did with 85k on it.

When RPMs go up it smooth's out much better than it ever did save maybe brand new.
 

blazen71

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Location
Wiskullsin
TDI
All Gone
I did the delete. I notice more vibration at idle but still have the stock leaky motor mounts. I do have a 5-speed swap with the single mass euro setup. Vibrations are NOT enough that I regret not doing the geared BSM.
 

AllenAlic

Active member
Joined
Oct 7, 2017
Location
Portage In
TDI
05 Passat TDI Wagon
I did the delete in conjunction with the timing service. Went with the higher pressure sprocket for piece of mind. I would do it again, it was easier that i thought. Now it's time for a manual conversion since the ZF is kaput�� Want to keep this car as long as possible.
 

simonbee

Active member
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Location
Wisconsin USA
TDI
2005 Passat 2L TDI
I opted for the geared BSM. I was a bit nervous doing it myself, I rented all the tools and took my time. It turned out fine. Have about 60K miles on it now. The engine has always run very smooth with very little vibration. I just did a transmission swap from auto to a 5 speed manual. I used a DMF stage 3 clutch, the engine still has very little vibration.
 

jmann8686

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Location
Yakima, Wa
TDI
2005 Passat bsm delete
I did the delete at 86K. I'm at 132K now. It was a pain to do and time consuming. It took me a week to do in my shop. it does vibrate more at idle but at long lights i just pop it into neutral.
 

Roger Carroll

New member
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Location
Chillicothe Ill
TDI
2002 Jetta manual wagon
How to tell?

I recently bought an 05 wagon from a self professed diesel guru, now I'm thinking not so much, but how can I check if anyone has done this to the car? To me it seems to take longer to shut down than my AHL,so I'm thinking more parts /shafts are in motion like it's still balanced. It's at160k miles. Thanks Roger
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
The only way to tell for sure is to find records of it being replaced or deleted, or drop the pan and inspect. There really is no other way.

Some have said that there is a different resistance on the dipstick deleted vs. non, but I could not tell any different on my car (now deleted) before vs after.
 

AllenAlic

Active member
Joined
Oct 7, 2017
Location
Portage In
TDI
05 Passat TDI Wagon
I could hear the chain on mine rattling around when I stuck my head under the front bumper.
 

mechanist

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Ebenezer, Saskatchewan, Canada
TDI
97 Passat silver like the rest, 2005 B5.5 in dirty black, 2015 Passat Highline auto white.
I have two B5's, a blue wagon and a black sedan. I picked the wagon up last year as it had impending failure of the chain happening, at 300ish k km. Did the delete last winter, it was quite surprising what the failure mode was. The chain wear that Smokerr describes on page one was quite evident, and was entirely due to chain slap and climb. The tensioners are hopelessly outmatched by the amount of chain slap present, and as one slipper had failed (and was in the pan) and the chain was intermittently trying to climb the gears, causing very accelerated wear/stretch. I have no doubt a brisk half hour drive would have grenaded it. The rest of the stuff was pretty much ok. After replacement, along with fresh motor mounts and a new cam, I would be lying to myself if I say I can detect any vibration difference over normal diesel stuff, and I'm pretty observant. The new chain has way less loading, so I doubt if it will reach failure before the rest of the motor is worn out. I've parked my sedan until I can get to the delete on it this winter. It has 180K km, and has slight chain noise, I imagine the tensioners are still intact, but I'll drive the blue whale until I can get to it rather than risk chain failure. I would speculate, that when the chain starts to really rattle so you can easily hear it, the tensioner is screwed, and you aren't far off of the chain piling up. Either fix, the delete or gear drive is good, just do it, as the stock setup is poor, and having seen it, it WILL fail given enough time, long before the motor is used up.
 
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