Post Your Dynos Here Ii

Scott02

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jackbombay said:
EEEEKKKKKK!!!!!

This is why i asked about what he's pushing with the vnt15 !
I don't get why sometimes all regard for a turbo's health (in terms of overspeeding) is over looked.
Just because it can do it, doesn't mean it should be doing it.
 
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jackbombay

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jsrmonster said:
Jack, wrong turbo, and 1.3 bar falling off to .8bar
Jeff
So Peter has 2 different hybrids? The map I posted above is for a VNT22 52mm compressor wheel, that's what Peter told me is in his hybrids.

Its good that the boost is supposed to fall off at high revs, but thats not what Peter's is doing.
 

jsrmonster

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the turbo is spinning the same at 6000, as 4000 when you pull back duty cycle 100%, and doesn't care about rpms. However, it does see alot more added heat cruising by it as exhaust is wasted ;-)

We ran a motor at 13000rpms with a big a$$ turbo to get it going, but after 6500 rpms, the turbo was a paper weight, and wet-nitrous was the prime mover. High boost at high rpms can easily float intake valves, and melt metal, but worst of all, it becomes a potato in the tailpipe, ie restriction ;-)

Jeff
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Jack, I never know how to best interpret the torque and HP curves. For example, is it better to shift at 5500 and fall right into the HP peak or at 4500 and have more torque and a rising HP curve? I do know that getting hard on the accelerator in the Golf at 2500 or so in 3rd when exiting a corner can simply cause wheelspin (still need a quaife), so that's a factor.

But the other factor is that if I'm making 125 HP at 5200 RPM in 3rd, is that more power than what I'd be making if I was in 4th at the same road speed? How much does the lower 3rd gearing help?

I'll probably try running some laps both ways: shifting at 4500 and at 5200 (I probably won't go to 5500 very often as I don't know when I get there: the tach stops at 5350).

And regarding the boost map: That may be my turbo posted on a boost map. As disucssed before, we don't know if it's a relevant map or not. I'm not concerned about it as the combination of revs and boost seems to be working regardless.
 

Bob_Fout

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How does gearing affect power to the wheels? Could it be better to have less HP area but because of gearing, be better to run out all the way in the lower of the two gears vs. upshifting?

/EDIT: IBW beat me to it.
 

jsrmonster

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dyno thread here - take engine discussions to another thread
thanks
 

jackbombay

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
As disucssed before, we don't know if it's a relevant map or not.
Its a map for a 52mm compressor wheel out of a VNT 20 (or 22), and as far as I know (I have never found out for sure) there is not more than one 52mm comp wheel available, if thats true, then it is the correct compressor map.

Lap times between 4500 shifts and 5300 shifts would be interesting to see, the 5300 shift point should gain you abit of time as you will save a few shifts per lap or so, depending on the track and how fast you typically enter and exit corners.
 

jsrmonster

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jack, can you say inertia! That's what launches the next gear, not a static hp number ;-)

I've said it before - you can have 2 cars with the same dyno numbers, but the one with greater area under the curves (hp density) will spank the other car at the track! Dyno's numbers are not as important as the shape of the curves they produce ;-)
 
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KROUT

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Jack your art skills are impresive. But that turbo graph is not for a hybrid turbo no is it? If you have a graph for a hybrid turbo you are the only one.:rolleyes: Its been real nice around here without you.


jackbombay said:
So Peter has 2 different hybrids? The map I posted above is for a VNT22 52mm compressor wheel, that's what Peter told me is in his hybrids.

Its good that the boost is supposed to fall off at high revs, but thats not what Peter's is doing.
 

Scott02

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KROUT said:
But that turbo graph is not for a hybrid turbo no is it? If you have a graph for a hybrid turbo you are the only one.
How does your 52mm hybrid compressor map differ from the compressor map he posted ?
 

Scott02

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jsrmonster said:
the turbo is spinning the same at 6000, as 4000 when you pull back duty cycle 100%, and doesn't care about rpms.
I'm sorry about posting in the dyno thread. But how do you figure this comment ? Your saying as long as the vanes are open, it can't hurt the turbo ?
Can you please show me on a vnt15 compressor map, how it flows 1.3bar of boost at 4k, and the shaft speed will be the same as flowing .8bar at 6k ? I might buy, pushing a vnt15 to .8bar at 5k (approx normal RC3, iirc).
How are you getting and extra 1000rpm at that boost without speeding up the compressor more ?

If the vanes are open 100% there is still load on the shaft and such. it's not free spooling in there, as it's still pumping air into the engine.
 
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jackbombay

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I posted the details earlier, but to the best of our knowledge the map I posted is for the 52mm compressor wheel in the hybrid turbo that Peter sells.

It does not matter if that comp wheel is in a "stock turbo" or a "hybrid turbo".

How much air a comp wheel can move, how efficiently it can move it, and at what pressure it surges and chokes are all independent of what turbine is making it spin. The turbine that is making it spin determines at what RPM and how much boost the turbo will make. But we know at what RPM how much pressure is being made by this 52mm comp wheel so it is just math to see where it lands on the compressor map.
 

KROUT

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Scott02 said:
How does your 52mm hybrid compressor map differ from the compressor map he posted ?
I dont know that it does. But I have yet to see anybody produce a compresor map for any vnt turbo much less a vnt17 or larger turbo. So what compresor map is it? Thats my only point I could care less about anything Jack has to say on anything. He only post crap like this to try to start shzt.
 

Scott02

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jackbombay said:
It does not matter if that comp wheel is in a "stock turbo" or a "hybrid turbo".

How much air a comp wheel can move, how efficiently it can move it, and at what pressure it surges and chokes are all independent of what turbine is making it spin. The turbine that is making it spin determines at what RPM and how much boost the turbo will make. But we know at what RPM how much pressure is being made by this 52mm comp wheel so it is just math to see where it lands on the compressor map.
100% agreed.
 

Scott02

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KROUT said:
I dont know that it does. But I have yet to see anybody produce a compresor map for any vnt turbo much less a vnt17 or larger turbo. So what compresor map is it? Thats my only point I could care less about anything Jack has to say on anything. He only post crap like this to try to start shzt.
he's not posting to start $hit here though, he's right. He posted a 52mm compressor wheel map. which is what's claimed to be in Peters "17/22" hybrids.
The maps for the larger turbos are everywhere... IIRC, the only MAPs I've never seen around are the ones for the littler VNT's.
 
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jsrmonster

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Scott02 said:
I'm sorry about posting in the dyno thread. But how do you figure this comment ? Your saying as long as the vanes are open, it can't hurt the turbo ?
Can you please show me on a vnt15 compressor map, how it flows 1.3bar of boost at 4k, and the shaft speed will be the same as flowing .8bar at 6k ? I might buy, pushing a vnt15 to .8bar at 5k (approx normal RC3, iirc).
How are you getting and extra 1000rpm at that boost without speeding up the compressor more ?

If the vanes are open 100% there is still load on the shaft and such. it's not free spooling in there, as it's still pumping air into the engine.
Scott, we are talking about Peters 150hp car. What setup are you thinking about? max hp, with big fuel? The exhaust energy is used in small portions (most of the heat energy exits the tailpipe). If you have a low rpm-flowing exhaust you might need a big portion of bleed (energy) for the work done on the vnt. If you have huge exhaust flow/energy, using a decreasing portion (as rpms increase) keeps the wheel at a reasonable rpm. I would be glad to talk more off-line if you like. Gotta get back to work. Working on 100mg/R top fuel tune now. Finalized the 70mg version earlier and testing in 10min.
Jeff
 
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jackbombay

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Scott02 said:
he's not posting to start $hit here though, he's right. He posted a 52mm compressor wheel map. which is what's claimed to be in Peters "17/22" hybrids.
Krout has been on my ignore list for some time, but as scott has quoted him I do see his posts, so I'll respond, but I won't see your response anyway, krout.

Krout, over the years here there have been a few vnt compressor maps posted, I always save them when they pop up as they are fairly rare, they have yet to be oficially released to the public by Garret, but they do get out occaisionally in tech documents, thats where I have gotten the ones I have. The 52mm comp map I used earlier came from the fabled VW TDI-R tech document.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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jackbombay said:
Here is where 27 PSI (EDIT-27 was wrong, Peter had popsted 25, I plotted the corect numbers on the map) lands "on" the compressor map, assuming you are using one of your 17/52 turbos. You can see this is the same map where I plotted your previous boost/RPM numbers that were off the left side of the map (surge), it looks like there is a pretty good chance that at WOT you turbo is never operating on the boost map. With 25 instead of 27 PSI you do end up on the map for a bit of your mid range. For the 5700 RPM point I used %50 compressor efficiency which is a rough guess, but when the efficiency is that low %10-15 doesn't really change the numbers that much, .8 of a pound or so.

Just to be clear: You're posting a map you "think" is from a 52mm wheel, that you "think" should behave similarly in a hybrid, and your plots are where you estimate the boost/RPM numbers should go. You say the turbo is surging at low RPMs, yet I've never had any audible or logging evidence of surge. And you estimate the turbo is out of its efficiency range almost all the time.

IMHO you've got too many assumptions here for this data to have any usefulness. I'd love to get a hybrid on a flow bench, but I doubt I have the time of funding to do that properly.

BTW, if this stuff is correct, where does that leave the VNT-20? What size is its compressor wheel? If it's running 22 or 24 PSI is it surging then out of its efficient range all the time?
 

Scott02

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
If a vnt 20 is running 22 or 24 PSI is it surging then out of its efficient range all the time?
YES! according to a vnt2052's compressor map, it is running VERY inefficiently up at those pressures, AND to hold that pressure to high rpms (5k) it is flirting with the choke line. (I don't wanna even talk about at 6k)

These are facts according to the garrett compressor map. I don't know what else to say. I'm not saying they're "law"... I'm just interpreting what they tell me. To me, they say, i'm flirting with disaster, and making inefficient boost pressure.
TDIMeister has posted that map that Jack did on Several occasions talking about the TDI-R car.
 
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KROUT

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They also said the same about the vnt 17 running 24psi. But I ran one like that for well over 100,000 miles with no surge or harm to the turbo. Its going on my bug in the next few weeks.

Unless I see documentation showing what that map is for is doesn't mean a damn thing. It could be a map from anything. Hell I can go to the garret web site and copy a map then draw all over it and say here you go your off the compresor map. lol

so where is the vnt 2052 map never seen one. Does the compresor housing make a difference in the map. The vnt 22 housing is different than the vnt 20.
 

Scott02

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KROUT said:
They also said the same about the vnt 17 running 24psi. But I ran one like that for well over 100,000 miles with no surge or harm to the turbo. Its going on my bug in the next few weeks.

Unless I see documentation showing what that map is for is doesn't mean a damn thing. It could be a map from anything. Hell I can go to the garret web site and copy a map then draw all over it and say here you go your off the compresor map. lol

so where is the vnt 2052 map never seen one. Does the compresor housing make a difference in the map. The vnt 22 housing is different than the vnt 20.
Sure a vnt17 can run 24 psi, can it do it at anything above 50% efficiency ? Not sure, I currently don't have that map, but I doubt it.
Boost means nothing. It's mass air flow that matters. I don't know why no-one realizes that. Cold dense air gives power, not air so hot it starts to melt steel. And also, you build pressure by having a resistance to flow, so why do you want that ?
 

jackbombay

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
Just to be clear: You're posting a map you "think" is from a 52mm wheel, that you "think" should behave similarly in a hybrid, and your plots are where you estimate the boost/RPM numbers should go.
That map is from the turbo from a 2.5 5-cylinder TDI (AXG/AHY; 074 145 703E) which from what I've been able to find is a VNT2052V, I think you have the capability to check that VW part number against garret numbers and confim that, or refute it.

Second, that compressor wheel does not care if it is in a hybrid or stock VNT22, its properties regarding compression of air will remain the same.

Third, TDIMeister taught all of us how to accurately plot points on a compressor map, its fairly easy really. I have the utmost confidence in TDIMesiter's knowledge when it comes to anything automotive, I stand my my numbers as accurate. Feel free to double check them.

You say the turbo is surging at low RPMs, yet I've never had any audible or logging evidence of surge. And you estimate the turbo is out of its efficiency range almost all the time.
As was posted previously by rub87 in another thread, turbos can run a bit outside the map and not surge, but that is a fine line that most of us without big stacks of new turbos waiting in our shop don't want to play with. :)

BTW, if this stuff is correct, where does that leave the VNT-20? What size is its compressor wheel? If it's running 22 or 24 PSI is it surging then out of its efficient range all the time?
A VNT20 with a 52mm comp wheel running 22-24 PSI is far different. If we assume it has a tune where the redline is stock 24 PSI at redline lands just over the choke line, instead of WAY over it, besides, VNT20s from Kerma come with programming (or they used to, not sure if they still do) that reduces the boost at high revs to prevent choke, I know my tune does that and I know several others with aligator tunes that do the same thing. I've read of Jeff saying that he drops boost as revs rise to avoid choke, so I'm not sure why yours is holding 25 till 5700 RPM.

As the 20 spools slower there is also less danger of it crossing the surge line at low RPMs.
 

jackbombay

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Scott02 said:
Sure a vnt17 can run 24 psi, can it do it at anything above 50% efficiency ? Not sure, I currently don't have that map, but I doubt it.
AFAIK there are not VNT17 maps available anywhere, I have one for the VNT 15 and VNT 2052.

The maps origin,

 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Scott02 said:
Boost means nothing. It's mass air flow that matters. I don't know why no-one realizes that. Cold dense air gives power, not air so hot it starts to melt steel. And also, you build pressure by having a resistance to flow, so why do you want that ?
I completely agree with the air mass thing. It's ironic that for years people said intake and exhaust mods didn't matter but now all of a sudden they do. I'm swapping my PD150 intake manifold from the wagon into the Golf for the MIVE track day to reduce EGTs (I'm getting a new one but it hasn't arrived yet). Air in and out helps. I wish I was allowed a bigger intercooler and piping. But if things get too hot I'll swap out the PP520s for PP357s.
 

jackbombay

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
It's ironic that for years people said intake and exhaust mods didn't matter...
That killed me. Its funny what will be believed here, it only takes a couple of gurus to make a blatantly eroneous statment and it still takes years for the damage to be undone.
 

jackbombay

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jackbombay said:
That map is from the turbo from a 2.5 5-cylinder TDI (AXG/AHY; 074 145 703E) which from what I've been able to find is a VNT2052V, I think you have the capability to check that VW part number against garret numbers and confim that, or refute it.
It turns out Google found the answer,

VOLKSWAGEN T4 BUS 2.5L D AHY 98 - GT2052V 454192-1/5 074145703E
Above quote from here, scroll about 4/5ths of the way down.

Also,

TDIMeister said:
Garrett lists two different OEM part numbers for the 150 HP T4 TDI with the same VW part number, 074 145 703E:


TRANSPORTER TDI 1998 150 2.5/5 D GT2052V 454192-0001 074 145 703E
TRANSPORTER TDI 2003 150 2.5/5 D GT2052V 454192-0005 074 145 703E
Another thing to note,

TDIMeister said:
GT22V is analogous to VNT-20 just as GT17V is analogous to VNT-15.
And it's been posted in the past by you and Jeff that the hybrids you sell are the same as the one he (Jeff) has been running for a couple years, and we know from the following quote that he is using the cold side of a 074 145 703E, the map for which I have been using when discussing your hybrid.

jsrmonster said:
Hi,

Hope this helps.

http://www.t4-multivan.de/index2.htm

Motor -AHY, 150ps: Turbolader "GARRIT" TYP GT22V, VAG Nr: 074 145 703E

Shown is the PD130 1749va on left, and gt22v on right... ...I also transfered the parts to a 1749vb manifold so it is plug and play.

Taking all this into consideration its pretty hard to deny that the map I have posted from the TDI-R paper is the appropriate map for your hybrid.
 

Scott02

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jackbombay said:
That killed me. Its funny what will be believed here, it only takes a couple of gurus to make a blatantly erroneous statement and it still takes years for the damage to be undone.
Oliver's car is a good case and point where the stock intake track WILL work, but he's running high boost to over come all of those shortcomings, which "IS" inefficient, but it works for him, that's where he's at, that's what he wants, so it's fine. No one else has posted a dyno that's "bigger", so I'm sure he did his homework, and made it happen....
And IBW's Golf is an example where every little tweak that is "allowed" to be made, will be made. Stock turbo must be retained, so he's looking to make the most of his low max boost from a vnt15. This is tuning/building with finesse, vs. Oliver's tuning/building with brute force (high boost). Both methods will work, all depends what your after.
 

hatemi

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Lets get this back to track. The turbo talk has been done and seen few times before.Most of us are pushing the equipment way past its comfort zone so lets be done with it.

Thing I'd like to point out is the two quite different methods used to get rather similar power. TDI Racings 224whp and my 233. He uses larger than life WG unit and I used a hybrid VNT. He has not upgraded the cam and head part and still gets very good power. Actually I wouldnt have even believed it would be possible to get that far with the stock parts before but aparently it can be done. We both have the same nozzles but I have 12mm head in the 11mm pump. He used water+meth and I straight diesel. My tune had its limiter @5500 with the fueling reduced after 5.3k. Olivers tune is 6000rpm tune. It would seem that theres more than one way to skin the cat ;)

Hres Olivers dyno:


And heres mine:
 
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