3 bar map and eurojet FMIC

Fix_Until_Broke · Aug 17, 2007

A bar is a unit of measure just like psi - both are pessures

Pressure = Force/Length squared = Force/Area

PSI = Pound Force/Inch squared

Bar = 0.1 Newton/Millimeter squared

So a 3 bar MAP sensor is ~45psi (both are absolute measurements, meaning they start from a full vaccum - they will read 1 bar, ~15psi, if you just hold them in your hand)

Doc_Oc · Aug 17, 2007

And because they transform the pressure reading in voltage send to the ecu, and the voltage range is the same on both, let's say 1 to 5 volts...now 5 volts does not mean 30 psi anymore it means 45 psi. So if the computer let's say, requests 20 psi from your turbo, it expects to see a voltage of le't say 4 volts. But the 3 bar map sensor need 23psi to put out 4 volts. So, you will make 3 psi more with the 3 bar map than with the 2 bar map. (numbers are not acurate, I just made them up and all this happens with a tune that does not know about the 3 bar map, that's why Joe wants a tune to know about it and interpret the voltages right)
I hope this makes sense.

droppedjet · Aug 17, 2007

SO a 3 bar MAf is just something to trick the computer into giving more boost... isnt that bad for the turbo and 3 bar maf comes off of what vechicle

Doc_Oc · Aug 17, 2007

It is not something to trick the computer to give more boost. It does this only if the tune you used doesn't know about it.
But, with bigger turbos, and higher boost numbers you NEED the 3 bar MAP for the ECU to be able to read the corect pressure.
Remember, the map sensor reads 1 bar at no boost. That is atmospheric pressure. But the thing is that if you run 15 PSI of boost on your boost gauge, your map will read not 1 bar, but 1 bar (your 15 PSI of boost) + 1 bar the atmospheric pressure that is 2 bars. So, you are out of scale if you run 25 PSI with a bigger turbo. 25 PSI is 1.7 bar + 1 bar atmospheric=2.7 bars and your stock sensor read up to 2.5
And this goes back to voltages, 2.5 bar = 5 volts let's say but 2.7 bar = also 5 volts.

For your second question, yes, it is bad for te turbo if you run excesive boost, let's say 22 psi on the stock VNT15. But if you run 15 PSI stock, and you put the 3 bar map, you will run 18 PSI, which is still safe for you stock turbo.
The ratio is 3 / 2.5 = 1.2, so actual boost will be 1.2 times what the ECU sees. 15x1.2=18

joevat · Aug 17, 2007

Doc_Oc said:
For your second question, yes, it is bad for te turbo if you run excesive boost, let's say 22 psi on the stock VNT15. But if you run 15 PSI stock, and you put the 3 bar map, you will run 18 PSI, which is still safe for you stock turbo.

but by doing this, it may be safe for the turbo, but what about the motor?throwing more boost up without the proper fuel/timing, doesnt that have an adverse effect?

droppedjet · Aug 17, 2007

Ok so I have a vnt-17 with the 52 mm wheel I have the stock maf with reading reading at 20 psi cause I have a boost controller do I need a 3 bar maf... bUt I have got the tune from kermatdi cause I have the q-loader so does my ecu know I have a bigger turbo or am I boostin more than 20 psi...

Doc_Oc · Aug 17, 2007

Joe, I am not talking about PDs.
But, in my case. I have 216s and Stage 2 soft that is made for a 10 mm pump. I through in an 11mm and the car starts smoking like a train. What is the best thing to do? Get a soft that is made for the NEW 11mm. What do I do? I put a 3bar map in there and increase the boost my self. Is it safe? Well, is it safe to push the stock turbo 5psi beyond the factory settings? You are your own warranty.
I have a boost gauge and i have an egt as well. I keep my eyes on them and I can say that I stay in the safe margins. But the short answer to your question is, get the right soft. There is no yes or no for "is it safe".

Droppedjet: I am not sure what the max psi for a 17 is. But I think arround 22. The stock MAP (2.5 bar) reads up to 22.5 PSI. So if you are only boosting to 20 psi, you are still well within the scale of the 2.5 stock MAP. Ask Kerma if he recommends a 3 bar sensor. He knows if the tune/soft supports or needs a 3 bar map.
(And be carefull as MAP is different than MAF, the first reads pressure, the second reads volume. The first is located on the IC (the presurized part of the intake, bettween the intake manifold and the turbo) the second is located by the airbox/air filter (the non pressurized side of the intake, between the airbox/air filter and the turbo).)

joevat · Aug 17, 2007

Doc, in your case, you are way over fueled. so raising your boost alittle wont do so much harm. i was talking about a stock car. someone may get confused and wanna save a buck. so instead of getting a chip ($250-$500) they get a 3 bar map ($40). fuel is only for 14 psi so throwing in a 3 bar map will increase to about 18psi but dont forget about spikes to about 19-20psi. and who knows maybe more on really bad hot days. thats what i meant about adverse effects "on a stock motor"

drkblujetta · Aug 17, 2007

Hmmm. I was under the impression the VNT17 could sustain 24PSI no problem.......

droppedjet · Aug 17, 2007

drkblujetta said:
Hmmm. I was under the impression the VNT17 could sustain 24PSI no problem.......

yeah it will run 25 psi all day but I dont want to cause my miles per gallon will go down but I am getting a dual stage boost controller so that I can flip a switch and run 25 psi and suprise cars...Its like having nitrious without blowing your engine....lol

droppedjet · Aug 17, 2007

Doc_Oc said:
Joe, I am not talking about PDs.
But, in my case. I have 216s and Stage 2 soft that is made for a 10 mm pump. I through in an 11mm and the car starts smoking like a train. What is the best thing to do? Get a soft that is made for the NEW 11mm. What do I do? I put a 3bar map in there and increase the boost my self. Is it safe? Well, is it safe to push the stock turbo 5psi beyond the factory settings? You are your own warranty.
I have a boost gauge and i have an egt as well. I keep my eyes on them and I can say that I stay in the safe margins. But the short answer to your question is, get the right soft. There is no yes or no for "is it safe".

Droppedjet: I am not sure what the max psi for a 17 is. But I think arround 22. The stock MAP (2.5 bar) reads up to 22.5 PSI. So if you are only boosting to 20 psi, you are still well within the scale of the 2.5 stock MAP. Ask Kerma if he recommends a 3 bar sensor. He knows if the tune/soft supports or needs a 3 bar map.
(And be carefull as MAP is different than MAF, the first reads pressure, the second reads volume. The first is located on the IC (the presurized part of the intake, bettween the intake manifold and the turbo) the second is located by the airbox/air filter (the non pressurized side of the intake, between the airbox/air filter and the turbo).)

Ok i understand now it is just a way to run more boost without getting a boost controller or a chip....

joevat · Aug 17, 2007

droppedjet said:
Ok i understand now it is just a way to run more boost without getting a boost controller or a chip....

you see doc? this is what i meant.

Doc_Oc · Aug 17, 2007

...I quit.

TdiRacing · Aug 17, 2007

Just get some gasket material at the auto parts store and cut a gasket. That is all you have to do. You do not need an adapter or anything like that. Or, use some of that high density closed cell foam material. Gasket material at Auto zone is the easiest. Have the same gasket for over 100k miles already.

joevat said:
just received my 3 bar map. just wondering will it be a direct fit into the eurojet FMIC pipe that the 2.5 bar map is located or will there have to be some modification? the hole does seem alittle big for the 2.5 bar map but im not for sure.

anyone have a 3 bar map on the eurojet fmic kit?

vwjettadsl · Aug 17, 2007

TdiRacing said:
Just get some gasket material at the auto parts store and cut a gasket. That is all you have to do. You do not need an adapter or anything like that. Or, use some of that high density closed cell foam material. Gasket material at Auto zone is the easiest. Have the same gasket for over 100k miles already.

This is what I'm going to be doing, the adapter kit from 42 Draft Designs will NOT work for a 3 Bar MAP sensor going onto a EuroJet SMIC.

Doc_Oc · Aug 20, 2007

vwjettadsl said:
This is what I'm going to be doing, the adapter kit from 42 Draft Designs will NOT work for a 3 Bar MAP sensor going onto a EuroJet SMIC.

Exactly, the adapter is meant only for 2.5 or 3" pipe and is to be welded onto the pipe. So for SMIC, especially the stock ones, you cannot use the adaptor flange unless you mounted somwhere else.

Vindiesel6 · Aug 20, 2007

So is there an easy procedure for making the Eurojet SMIC with a small MAP port fitting work for the larger MAP sensor? Would buying a MAP sensor with the smaller fitting and connecting it to my car work or will a CEL come on? I have also thought about drilling out the SMIC MAP port to the right size, but do not want to ruin this work of art. I guess I could always send it back and get the properly drilled SMIC. Suggestions? Thanks in advance.

03_01_TDI · Aug 21, 2007

NOT pretty. But the 42dd 2.5" with some JBWeld would work. If you clean the pipe and apply the JBweld in a clean way it would look OK.

Vindiesel6 · Aug 21, 2007

Vindiesel6 said:
So is there an easy procedure for making the Eurojet SMIC with a small MAP port fitting work for the larger MAP sensor? Would buying a MAP sensor with the smaller fitting and connecting it to my car work or will a CEL come on? I have also thought about drilling out the SMIC MAP port to the right size, but do not want to ruin this work of art. I guess I could always send it back and get the properly drilled SMIC. Suggestions? Thanks in advance.

I think I am just going to drill out the small MAP sensor whole on the Eurojet SMIC to fit my MAP sensor. I was told that for the larger MAP sensor (that I have) it needs a 3/4" whole. The sensor itself is a little narrower than that, which I would imagine allows it to slide in easily and then the O-ring seals it up. I am excited to get this SMIC installed this weekend and then take a nice long trip to see how much less heat soak I will experience with my RC2 and Injectors!

Doc_Oc · Aug 21, 2007

Where did you get the big one? Everybody can only find the small 3bar.

Vindiesel6 · Aug 21, 2007

Doc_Oc said:
Where did you get the big one? Everybody can only find the small 3bar.

I pulled it right out of my stock SMIC. It is 3/4" in diameter, where as the whole for the Eurojet SMIC MAP sensor port is 1/2" for the smaller sensor I guess. I am a little confused by this as well. So how do I know what pressure (bar) my sensor is rated at?

Doc_Oc · Aug 21, 2007

It is 2.5 bar. Look on it for the part number. I thought it was a 3 bar and that's why I was asking.

Vindiesel6 · Aug 21, 2007

Doc_Oc said:
It is 2.5 bar. Look on it for the part number. I thought it was a 3 bar and that's why I was asking.

I will look when I get home. What is the part number for the 2.5bar vs 3bar? It must be the 2.5bar stock sensor but i guess they used large style and small style sensors.

Doc_Oc · Aug 21, 2007

Doc_Oc said:
This is what I gather from another thread and in bold what I got from a Canadian VW dealer.
There are 5 variations of the same part number: 038 906 051

1. Older type with large 'base' that fits into the IC or boost pipe.
- no suffix -> 2.5 bar 170$
- A suffix -> 3 bar invalid part number ???????????
(These don't fit to replace the newer type)

2. Newer type with smaller base (these you can use to replace the older type)
- B suffix -> 2.5 bar no detail
- C suffix -> 3 bar 70$

And there is a D for 170$ as well, but we don't know what the range is.

Post 9 in this thread.

Vindiesel6 · Aug 21, 2007

Doc_Oc said:
Post 9 in this thread.

So instead of drilling the Eurojet SMIC for the larger MAP sensor can I just buy a newer style small 2.5bar MAP sensor and plug it into my car with out any issues?

Doc_Oc · Aug 21, 2007

Yes, for sure.

Vindiesel6 · Aug 21, 2007

Hmmm.... Decisions, I could have the Eurojet SMIC drilled for my old style larger MAP sensor for free OR I could buy the newer style smaller MAP sensor for $50 from world impex and plug it right in... Would there be any advantage to buying the 3bar sensor with the tune in my signature and setting it to only spike at 18psi with my boost valve?

Doc_Oc · Aug 21, 2007

As discussed previously, your ECU will "see" a lower voltage, thus requesting more boost. It might work that way, it might not. If you keep moding the car, you might as well get the 3 bar now and get it done with

LNXGUY · Aug 21, 2007

If you aren't running over 22psi (i hope to hell you don't have a vnt15) then there is no use in running the 3.0bar map.

Vindiesel6 · Aug 21, 2007

And I thought I would just be bolting on a bigger IC...... So has anyone confirmed that the 3bar sensor does NOT cause a CEL on the ALH. I know that Peter stated it will cause a CEL on the PD.

EDIT - I think I will just get the SMIC drilled for free and stick with my stock larger 2.5 bar MAP sensor. It is the most cost effective and quick solution.

Thanks for all the help Doc.

3 bar map and eurojet FMIC

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