Have You Considered The Price of Gasoline?

sandydeb

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Location
NJ
TDI
2014 Passat SE 6MT Black
Gas engines have narrowed the gap in the last few years. there is still more BTU's of energy in diesel and that will always be a constant. The operation of a diesel having to compress it to ignition makes it more efficient compared to a gas engine having to spark to ignite.
Yes, which is why you are not going to have gas powered tractor trailers or construction equipment.

But extracting that power out of the diesel requires sturdier components to deal with the higher compression ratios - which means more weight and/or more expensive materials.

When it comes to economy passenger cars, the manufacturer cannot just eat that cost. So that engine has to be priced up.

Now going back to the point that OP brought up, that did work in the past when the fuel economy advantage was substantial. But the advantage has been crushed from both ends - new turbo gassers are much more efficient and the TDI efficiency was based on fraud.

Diesels in light passenger vehicles can still be sold based on the torque argument - but that would only work in pickup trucks (where the need is legitimate) or luxury vehicles (where the added engine costs are small relative to overall manufacturer margin).

They will keep selling smaller diesels in europe because the governments and auto makers are complicit in the emissions fraud, but they will maintain the facade to both preserve jobs and appearance on 'doing something about climate change.'
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
I don't see a scenario where tractor trailers will disappear from the nation's highways so of course, there will never be a scenario where you cannot find diesel.
But most of that will be cheap, cr*p diesel, the sort that doesn't matter to the hardy tractor trailer engine but will wreak havoc with the relatively fragile TDIs.
Modern diesel trucks require fuel that is just as good as a TDI....it's the same technology, both in emissions on the VW TDI gen2+3 cars....
It seems you have fallen victim groups who consider diesel motors to be evil, dirty and dangerous.....
Simple fact is a modern diesel truck can be idled in a shop without a vent connected to its exaust....yes they are THAT clean. Trucks do tend to have a LONG life, and get rebuilt many times....so the last if the DIRTY mechanical motors are disappearing now.....so 20 years is pretty typical...those motors , much like the older versions diesels could burn anything....
But the pre-2010 motors are actually having issues due to the fuels lack of lubrication, just like our TDI fuel pumps......
The federal rules REQUIRE clean diesel fuel....even off road fuel is now "clean".....
It appears you have an agenda, or just dislike diesel.... which makes me question your purchase and reason here.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Except it's worth noting that the regulatory regimes in Europe are shifting away from diesel, and then away from ICE altogether. Quite a few small cars in Europe (below Golf-class) are launching without a diesel option (even one VW, the up!).

And, spark-ignition tractor trailers are a thing that is on US roads, today, in the form of the Cummins ISX12 G. Granted, that's running natural gas, but it's not a far leap to gasoline.
 

sandydeb

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Location
NJ
TDI
2014 Passat SE 6MT Black
As do Land Rover, Jaguar, and Ram. And I doubt we know why VW chose not to meet the regs, although they have been loathe to pay for technology in the past.
Because Land Rover and Jaguar and Mercedes are luxury brands with fat profit margins. VW sells economy diesel cars, already priced as a large premium to their corresponding gas engines. Its math.

Clearly you aren't a diesel fan. That's fine. Why you choose to spend your time on a forum for diesel fans is beyond me. Mazda' s skyactiv diesel never materialized here. That absolutely does not mean new passenger diesels can't meet the regs. BMW, Mercedes, and GM have diesel cars that do meet the regs. VW could have too. They were just too cheap to license the SCR technology from mercedes.
1) Read OPs post. It wasn't to discuss diesel fandom.
2) Economy cars are barely one step above appliances. Not my kind of thing to be a 'fan' of and avoid logic, but I can understand if people want to be that way.

Even if I were a 'fan' - the fact that the only manufacturer that was selling economy diesels had to resort to fraud to do so would probably shake my previous belief. But once again, just me.

Oh, and I am on the forum because I do own a diesel. Didn't buy it out of fandom but out of logic that made sense, unfortunately based on fraud.
 

Debra Morgan

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Location
Columbus Ohio
TDI
Memories of a fantastic 2015 Jetta
Except it's worth noting that the regulatory regimes in Europe are shifting away from diesel, and then away from ICE altogether. Quite a few small cars in Europe (below Golf-class) are launching without a diesel option (even one VW, the up!).

And, spark-ignition tractor trailers are a thing that is on US roads, today, in the form of the Cummins ISX12 G. Granted, that's running natural gas, but it's not a far leap to gasoline.

Was it not Renault that just said that they were basically moving away from Diesel also?
 

Debra Morgan

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Location
Columbus Ohio
TDI
Memories of a fantastic 2015 Jetta
Oh man I cannot wait for a return to that after all this BS blows over. I just hope the haters go away and stay away and let us enthusiasts continue to have fun with our little odd cars. :rolleyes:
Indeed...it seems like all of the activity on the forum lately is people wanting to be rid of them as soon as possible.
 

Driximus

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Washington
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS
Yes, which is why you are not going to have gas powered tractor trailers or construction equipment.
But extracting that power out of the diesel requires sturdier components to deal with the higher compression ratios - which means more weight and/or more expensive materials.
When it comes to economy passenger cars, the manufacturer cannot just eat that cost. So that engine has to be priced up.
Now going back to the point that OP brought up, that did work in the past when the fuel economy advantage was substantial. But the advantage has been crushed from both ends - new turbo gassers are much more efficient and the TDI efficiency was based on fraud.
Diesels in light passenger vehicles can still be sold based on the torque argument - but that would only work in pickup trucks (where the need is legitimate) or luxury vehicles (where the added engine costs are small relative to overall manufacturer margin).
They will keep selling smaller diesels in europe because the governments and auto makers are complicit in the emissions fraud, but they will maintain the facade to both preserve jobs and appearance on 'doing something about climate change.'

you are correct, the mark up price on a diesel is not worth fuel savings alone. My wifes 2015 Passat Tsi she is getting 33 local driving. Some owners are reporting into the 40's highway.
 

Debra Morgan

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Location
Columbus Ohio
TDI
Memories of a fantastic 2015 Jetta
Nah, the 7.3 and 6.0 models got around 18 highway. Love that truck! I keep wondering if I should have gotten that instead of the Avalanche. Still I enjoy the ride of the Avalanche, which is slightly smaller than the Excursion.

the Colorado should be much better, and the Ram Ecodeisel should do very well. Didn't ford just announce a diesel for the f-150 also?
 

pparks1

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Location
Westland, Michigan
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
you are correct, the mark up price on a diesel is not worth fuel savings alone. My wifes 2015 Passat Tsi she is getting 33 local driving. Some owners are reporting into the 40's highway.
Low 40's on the highway is not likely going to happen. Oh wait, it's VW, they probably cheated :rolleyes:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
"Economy Car" is a pretty meaningless term these days. For years European manufacturers have build high quality, well finished small cars that are more sophisticated in engineering and execution than their Japanese or North American competitors. Are they economical to operate? Yes. Are they inexpensive? Not particularly.

VW TDIs assembled in Europe and Latin America largely fit this description, with a few exceptions, like the S verison of the MKVI Jetta Sedan. I would not put the NMS Passat in this category. Unfortunately the idea of paying a premium price for a small car has never caught on in the US. But those of us who appreciate the fit, finish, performance, and durability of high quality small diesels will continue to drive them.
 

BPofMD

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Location
Maryland
TDI
2012 Passat SE
I really should get a ScanGauge and put it on my Prius on a freeway cruise.

Would it be cheating to set the cruise for 71 MPH, and go down a hill, when showing the ScanGauge's report of engine RPM (the Prius doesn't have a tach, you see)? ;)
I DO have a Scan Gauge in my '15 MKZ Hybrid and it really looks strange to look at it while in 'lectric mode ! 0 RPM and 545MPG at 45MPH for a number of miles!!! When the engine comes back on line, it's 1750RPM and 21MPG at 45MPH!

As a note: it has a 13.5 gal tank and I have been averaging between 35 and 46 MPG - depending on hwy or city driving according to Fuelly.

BTW, this is what replaced my '12 Passat which in sitting next to the house covered and awaiting buy-back. That has been getting between 36 and 46 MPG since the installation of the crappy tune that VW put in a few years ago. Before that is was between 45-55 MPG. THAT's why I am going for the buy-back. VW is actually paying for the MKZ!
 

sandydeb

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Location
NJ
TDI
2014 Passat SE 6MT Black
"Economy Car" is a pretty meaningless term these days. For years European manufacturers have build high quality, well finished small cars that are more sophisticated in engineering and execution than their Japanese or North American competitors. Are they economical to operate? Yes. Are they inexpensive? Not particularly.

VW TDIs assembled in Europe and Latin America largely fit this description, with a few exceptions, like the S verison of the MKVI Jetta Sedan. I would not put the NMS Passat in this category. Unfortunately the idea of paying a premium price for a small car has never caught on in the US. But those of us who appreciate the fit, finish, performance, and durability of high quality small diesels will continue to drive them.
VAG does sell a non-economy car. It is spelt A-U-D-I.
 

sandydeb

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Location
NJ
TDI
2014 Passat SE 6MT Black
Modern diesel trucks require fuel that is just as good as a TDI....it's the same technology, both in emissions on the VW TDI gen2+3 cars....
It seems you have fallen victim groups who consider diesel motors to be evil, dirty and dangerous.....
Simple fact is a modern diesel truck can be idled in a shop without a vent connected to its exaust....yes they are THAT clean. Trucks do tend to have a LONG life, and get rebuilt many times....so the last if the DIRTY mechanical motors are disappearing now.....so 20 years is pretty typical...those motors , much like the older versions diesels could burn anything....
But the pre-2010 motors are actually having issues due to the fuels lack of lubrication, just like our TDI fuel pumps......
The federal rules REQUIRE clean diesel fuel....even off road fuel is now "clean".....
It appears you have an agenda, or just dislike diesel.... which makes me question your purchase and reason here.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1987974&postcount=1


It appears you have an agenda, or just dislike diesel.... which makes me question your purchase and reason here.
You sir, are a true fan(atic).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
True enough, and the A3 does seem to sell well despite its small size and high price. So if you attach enough status to the vehicle people will pay. If they'd make one with a manual transmission I might be interested.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I love the A3 Sportback (the previous generation). The current sedan is just 'meh', another little sedan. Not a huge fan of sedans that small.

Now the A6, with the V6 TDI? Sign me up! :D

It is a shame all the A3 TDIs were automatics, though. :(
 

newbury

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Location
Fairfax, VA/Fulton, MS
TDI
2009 JSW
I don't have a need for all of that. But I do have a need for a vehicle that can plow two foot deep snow and haul an equipment trailer loaded with 4 tons of farm machinery. And my 4x4 F250 with 7.3 diesel does the job admirably. You could argue that none of us really need autos of any kind. As americans we expect more than mere survival.
And I've a need for a car that SWMBO can easily drive and park that I can easily squeeze in 600 to 1,000 lbs of tools and my JSW TDI filled the bill.
My F350 7.3 dually often hauls my 6 ton equipment trailer full, but she doesn't like to drive it and parallel parking requires finesse.
sandydeb, the world of diesel isn't coming to an end because of this one issue. :D
I've been driving diesels for a long time and I can count on my thumbs the times I've had difficulty finding fuel. The number of diesel models in the US is on the rise, regardless of what VW chooses to do. Maybe you could call them an "oddity," but they're a good one.
Those of us who've always enjoyed driving diesels will continue to do so, regardless of what happens to VW or to fuel prices.
That was either only true in about the last 20 years or is regional. My first VW diesel was a '79 Rabbit and trips definitely required planning for fuel stops if you were not on major truck routes.
Nah, the 7.3 and 6.0 models got around 18 highway. Love that truck! I keep wondering if I should have gotten that instead of the Avalanche. Still I enjoy the ride of the Avalanche, which is slightly smaller than the Excursion.
I've two 7.3's they are like rocks (in a good way).
I don't see a scenario where tractor trailers will disappear from the nation's highways so of course, there will never be a scenario where you cannot find diesel.
But most of that will be cheap, cr*p diesel, the sort that doesn't matter to the hardy tractor trailer engine but will wreak havoc with the relatively fragile TDIs.
Like it's been written - its rare to find bad diesel anymore because all the vehicles need good fuel.
I don't know why you keep trying to talk about tractor trailers. And they have ever more stringent regulations to follow and probably need just as good of fuel.
The small truck (pickup truck) market for diesel is growing and they need the same good quality fuel as the TDI. Diesel fuel at your local station is not going anywhere.
Since I'm in the market for a replacement for my '09 crusher bound VW I've tried to analyze where fuel prices will go.
I believe as soon as oil prices tick up slightly the fracking will come back on line and I doubt we will see oil prices much above $50/barrel for many years.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
That was either only true in about the last 20 years or is regional. My first VW diesel was a '79 Rabbit and trips definitely required planning for fuel stops if you were not on major truck routes.
I'd disagree on both counts. My first diesel was a '78 Rabbit, bought new in LA, driven all around CA for two years before driving cross country to Massachusetts, where I kept it until 1984. Only time I had trouble finding fuel for that car was at 7 AM on a Sunday in San Francisco. My girlfriend (eventually my wife) convinced a local dairy to give us some fuel so we could get to a station outside the city. I carried a Mercedes book of diesel stations in the US in the car, but didn't use it much. LA was a piece of cake, there were several stations near where I lived, and I drove through the '78 shortage without odd/even days or any stations running out.

I've driven my '02 Wagon 340K miles in the past 14 years, as far west as Montana, north as northern Quebec, south to Florida. One time I had to drive around Buffalo a bit to find a station on a Sunday, but that's about it. If you have trouble finding diesel in North America you just need to look a little harder.
 

rfortson

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Location
Houston (Clear Lake)
TDI
2012 Jetta Surfwagen TDI
I couldn't get that to work back in 1979.
Luddite! ;)

Seriously, though, apps like GasBuddy are great. There are several for electric charging stations (and for people that drive purely electric cars, they really need it).

It's amazing the technology we have in our pocket.
 

Perfectreign

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS 5-speed

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I have never used a phone app to find a filling station. Never have had the need to. It's really not that difficult.
 

scooperhsd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
Kansas City KS
TDI
NB, 2000, RED(5 Speed conversion) 2015 Golf SE
For thoise of you in the Southeast -

I'm sure you've heard of the Colonial Pipeline leak on the news - (the Colonial is a major supplier of gas here). Stations around Raleigh are running out of gas , and if they haven't - it's more expensive than usual.

Diesel, however, is holding on price and availability. Makes me glad I have 2 VW TDI's . Even after today's 70 mile roundtrip - I STILL can go 600+ miles in my Beetle (44+ MPG - 15-16 gallons usuable).
 

shovelhd

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Location
Western MA
TDI
2014 JSW
Then I guess you don't care about paying the lowest reasonable price. Whatever floats your boat. I use Gas Buddy constantly to get the best deal on fuel. My local station is getting $2.39. GB found it for me today for $2.11, on my way back from a morning meeting. The station was two miles out of my way on the trip home. 4 miles to save 28 cents per gallon, works for me.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I have a 275 gallon tank at my house and fuel up there unless I'm on a road trip. And I'm going to use what's convenient when traveling. I've been getting right around 50 MPG lately so a few cents a gallon isn't going to make that much difference.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I do pay all taxes on it. I do it more for convenience and to control my fuel quality than cost. And I think it gets my sons to visit more often.
 

deuxdiesel

Active member
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Location
SE Michigan
TDI
'12 Golf TDI, 14' Beetle TDI, '16 GTI
We never averaged more than 39 MPG in our now-parked TDI Beetle, and our replacement Mazda3 2.0 is averaging 39.4 with mixed driving, and only has 700 miles on it. MPG will go up after the extended break-in, so with gas and diesel roughly the same price, it's a wash.
 
Top