Lets start objecting/complaining !

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DanB36

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Guys, the problem with this is that the judge is just that, a judge. If all parties to the suit agree with the settlement...he has little to no say in the matter.
If this were simply a matter of the FTC and the DOJ, then this would be correct. However, since it's also a class action, the judge has an independent duty to look out for the interests of all the class members. That's why class members have the opportunity to submit comments (and specifically objections) to the court. How much the judge will consider them, I can't say. I'd expect that will depend greatly on how well they're written.
 

MrSprdSheet

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Yep, I all of a sudden popped onto the forum 13 years ago. I'm a "VW loyalist/apologist" (funny, I don't remember defending anything VW has done) because I point out glaring factual errors in what's presented as the model complaint letter. In fact, I'm so much of a VW loyalist/apologist that I myself pointed out what I consider to be serious issues with the settlement in Threadzilla Jr.

Few of my posts on the subject of the settlement have even given my opinion of it (which is that it's fair in principle, but there are some adjustments that should be made), and none have even attempted to tell anyone else what they should think. What I have tried to do is answer factual questions (of which there are many) and correct factual errors (of which there are more). If that earns me a spot on your ignore list, more power to you. I guess you showed me.
DanB36, You are clearly a man of the facts. You think 10 billion can't possibly mean "very little is made available" to customers.

If we surrendered 11bb in "retail", the 10bb "trade-in" wouldn't be so much to VW. It would be a business model. Ask us if we care how much value these cars do represent to them, and we will cry you a river. Everybody is adding up what they gave up, and you act like they're being handed 10 billion. Not a great start, unless you're making some kind of apology?

It's a fact that under the proposed settlement, VW is paying $10 Billion to customers. There's no reasonable way it's true that "very little is made available" to customers.
 

MichVW

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DanB36, You are clearly a man of the facts. You think 10 billion can't possibly mean "very little is made available" to customers.
If we surrendered 11bb in "retail", the 10bb "trade-in" wouldn't be so much to VW. It would be a business model. Ask us if we care how much value these cars do represent to them, and we will cry you a river. Everybody is adding up what they gave up, and you act like they're being handed 10 billion. Not a great start, unless you're making some kind of apology?

Bout time someone set him straight. Completely agree!
 

DanB36

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DanB36, You are clearly a man of the facts. You think 10 billion can't possibly mean "very little is made available" to customers.
Yes, I think that's a fair statement. A very large sum of money is being paid directly to the customers. If you don't believe it's an adequate sum of money, there are a number of ways that argument can be made, and you should absolutely do so.

Here's a tip: Read what I write. Don't try to assume what I mean by it. If my meaning isn't clear, ask. I think I'm being pretty clear, but I'm having lots of things attributed to me that I never said or implied, and don't even believe. With that said, let me see if I can be a bit clearer.

r11's letter said, when I posted (he's subsequently edited it), "It is nice that government is getting $5B, but very little is made available to compensate us, the owners." (which I inadvertently misquoted as "almost nothing" to the owners--my apologies). In point of fact, over twice the amount of money going to the government--over $10B, or over $20k per owner on average--is going to the owners. That's quite a lot of money in the aggregate, and even the individual amount is significant to anyone who isn't Bill Gates. I'm a lawyer, and I know a few judges. It's my opinion that a judge looking at this is going to say "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Next!"

If the point is that the compensation isn't adequate, make that argument--and there are a number of ways it can be done. If the point is that the baseline value should be retail, not trade-in, I think that's an excellent point, and I raised it myself in Son of Threadzilla. If the point is that it isn't enough to adequately punish VW, make that argument--I don't think I'd agree there, but the argument can certainly be made (though I think it gets harder to justify that money going to the owners, and I've already mentioned the issue that punitive damages are always taxable income to the recipient).

My point is simply that an objection letter stating things that are provably false will have no credibility with the judge. I'll grant that "very little" is somewhat subjective, but I think the amount already going to the owners is large enough that it's outside any reasonable definition of "very little." So, for the sake of your own credibility, and for the sake of the effectiveness of your letter, be careful to be correct in any factual claims you make.
 

Carphuntin_god

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R11's got the right idea with the draft. I'd offer suggestions...but all i'm doing today at work is writing drafts of letters for work...and i'm sick of the task :)

One thing popping into my head... the denizen's of TDIClub and whatever other internet tdi stomping grounds are out there, are probably only at best 1-5% of tdi owners in the US.

We are are actively reading up and looking at our response. That other 95% is only seeing MSM, and there is very little there telling them to do something.

I'm wondering if VW was directed to notify all owners of the prospective deal, and let them know what they must do to comment? Even if they do... i think it will be useless without someone letting them know there are places like tdiclub to get more info and suggestions for a concerted message.
 
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DanB36

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Bout time someone set him straight. Completely agree!
Yes, it's about time someone set me straight from a position I never expressed nor held. Good job indeed.

To paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson from Pulp Fiction, "English, mofo! Do you read it?"
 

MichVW

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R11's got the right idea with the draft. I'd offer suggestions...but all i'm doing today at work is writing drafts of letters for work...and i'm sick of the task :)

One thing popping into my head... the denizen's of TDIClub and whatever other internet tdi stomping grounds are out there, are probably only at best 1-5% of tdi owners in the US.

We are are actively reading up and looking at our response. That other 95% is only seeing MSM, and there is very little there telling them to do something.

I'm wondering if VW was directed to notify all owners of the prospective deal, and let them know what they must do to comment? Even if they do... i think it will be useless without someone letting them know there are places like tdiclub to get more info and suggestions for a concerted message.



To the bold... I have received nothing from VW other than the goodwill package that "I" registered for back in November of last year. i only gained knowledge of the goodwill package by frequenting this website.
No mailings, nothing informing me of the pending court case, comment period etc. VW has maintained radio silence throughout this entire process. Some people out there are offering their cars for sale not knowing that there is a buyback proposal that could potentially award them several thousand dollars over their asking price!
This is a TERRIBLE example of customer service by a company supposedly trying to "save face". Shows just how much VW cares about it's current and potential future customers. What a Crappy company!
 

LogicBomb

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[/B]
To the bold... I have received nothing from VW other than the goodwill package that "I" registered for back in November of last year. i only gained knowledge of the goodwill package by frequenting this website.
No mailings, nothing informing me of the pending court case, comment period etc. VW has maintained radio silence throughout this entire process. Some people out there are offering their cars for sale not knowing that there is a buyback proposal that could potentially award them several thousand dollars over their asking price!
This is a TERRIBLE example of customer service by a company supposedly trying to "save face". Shows just how much VW cares about it's current and potential future customers. What a Crappy company!

I checked out a few of the TDI's for sale here locally on Craigslist. I found 10 cars, that I could buy right now, and at the proposed buy back rates, I'd make no less than 5,000 dollars on each car, the highest being 9,300. And I spent less than 20 minutes looking for cars, and doing their buy back math. If someone was so inclined, they could make a killing, if the buy back figures hold.

Unfortunately for me, I have a sense of morality that prevents me from taking advantage of people who "don't know any better".
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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I checked out a few of the TDI's for sale here locally on Craigslist. I found 10 cars, that I could buy right now, and at the proposed buy back rates, I'd make no less than 5,000 dollars on each car, the highest being 9,300. And I spent less than 20 minutes looking for cars, and doing their buy back math. If someone was so inclined, they could make a killing, if the buy back figures hold.

Unfortunately for me, I have a sense of morality that prevents me from taking advantage of people who "don't know any better".
IF you buy one today, are you sure you can sell it back to VW:confused:
 

DanB36

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IF you buy one today, are you sure you can sell it back to VW:confused:
This is popping up in a number of threads, but the short answer is that someone who buys after 6/28 is an eligible owner, and the vehicles remain eligible vehicles, so yes, you should be able to sell it back.
 

MichVW

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I checked out a few of the TDI's for sale here locally on Craigslist. I found 10 cars, that I could buy right now, and at the proposed buy back rates, I'd make no less than 5,000 dollars on each car, the highest being 9,300. And I spent less than 20 minutes looking for cars, and doing their buy back math. If someone was so inclined, they could make a killing, if the buy back figures hold.

Unfortunately for me, I have a sense of morality that prevents me from taking advantage of people who "don't know any better".
Yeah....I know. I called a guy today on a 2012 JSW with 75,0000 miles. Asking price was $12,000. Figured I could make approx $8000-9000 when I traded the car in come October. He said he was going to call me back after he talked with his wife about a time to meet so I can look at the car.

Well. I have the money....I could buy it... but I talked with my wife and decided that if he calls back I am going to tell him that he needs to pull the ad and hang onto the car. Just don't have it in me to pull something like that. He was an older gentlemen. I may even just give him a courtesy call and tell him.
 

jhawklver

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I get that there are people completely happy with their buyback. I get that those people disagree with those who aren't happy. But what I don't get is why they'd spend the time/effort to argue in a thread specifically set up for those who aren't happy to collect thoughts and organize complaints.

What is the end game here? Look tough on the Internet? I mean, seriously consider it. You have a settlement you are good with. It isn't going backwards. Even if you don't agree, if complaints cause the judge to change it... you'll get even more. Pretty stupid to actively fight against more $$$ even if you don't agree. Even if you are a fanboy.

Of course there is another option - those arguing have skin in the game in a different manner. Either way, there are plenty of other threads to have these arguments. This one is specifically for those who want to complain and you aren't changing minds here.
 

sierra3

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If you care about being ethical...buy only from dealers...they are paid to know better.
 

wutech

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I think the trade value is crap, mileage adjustment is crap, and lack of consideration for fees on replacement purchase.

If this thread can provide a letter template I'm all for adding my information to send it in.
 

2015golfwagon

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So question I know of a few TDI Jetta Wagons for sale here from local used car dealers, I buy them I could get full buyback price as the proposal reads now? It sounds like a no brainer to buy all three and make some money come October, I would not be hurting anyone in doing this as they are used car dealers and not individuals.
 

dropnosky

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Yep, I all of a sudden popped onto the forum 13 years ago. I'm a "VW loyalist/apologist" (funny, I don't remember defending anything VW has done) because I point out glaring factual errors in what's presented as the model complaint letter. In fact, I'm so much of a VW loyalist/apologist that I myself pointed out what I consider to be serious issues with the settlement in Threadzilla Jr.

Few of my posts on the subject of the settlement have even given my opinion of it (which is that it's fair in principle, but there are some adjustments that should be made), and none have even attempted to tell anyone else what they should think. What I have tried to do is answer factual questions (of which there are many) and correct factual errors (of which there are more). If that earns me a spot on your ignore list, more power to you. I guess you showed me.

dont let it bother you. the act of discussion is so harmful to him, that he instantly puts anyone who doesn't agree with him on ignore. This is a service we can all appreciate since he does not know how to debate in the least.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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So question I know of a few TDI Jetta Wagons for sale here from local used car dealers, I buy them I could get full buyback price as the proposal reads now? It sounds like a no brainer to buy all three and make some money come October, I would not be hurting anyone in doing this as they are used car dealers and not individuals.
Don't think so
 

DanB36

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So question I know of a few TDI Jetta Wagons for sale here from local used car dealers, I buy them I could get full buyback price as the proposal reads now? It sounds like a no brainer to buy all three and make some money come October, I would not be hurting anyone in doing this as they are used car dealers and not individuals.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=463292
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=463585
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=463639
 

Trade Wind

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If you buy one or more of these vehicles in the hopes of profiting on the buyback, please keep it to yourself until after the comment period is over and the deal is final. I am sure you can imagine a tweak to the deal to screw this up for you in the name of being "fair" to the poor guy selling after 6/28.

Plenty of time to post after your profits are locked in... Thanks for being smart about this.
 

2015golfwagon

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Thanks for the links, sounds like it could be a risky proposition as there could be a tweak to the resolution for former owners or a former owner who sold to the dealer after Sept of last year could come forward and file and then the current owner who bought after June would only get half of the buyback.
 

MichVW

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I get that there are people completely happy with their buyback. I get that those people disagree with those who aren't happy. But what I don't get is why they'd spend the time/effort to argue in a thread specifically set up for those who aren't happy to collect thoughts and organize complaints.

What is the end game here? Look tough on the Internet? I mean, seriously consider it. You have a settlement you are good with. It isn't going backwards. Even if you don't agree, if complaints cause the judge to change it... you'll get even more. Pretty stupid to actively fight against more $$$ even if you don't agree. Even if you are a fanboy.

Of course there is another option - those arguing have skin in the game in a different manner. Either way, there are plenty of other threads to have these arguments. This one is specifically for those who want to complain and you aren't changing minds here.
Agree.... There are a few guys (we all know who they are) that come to the "I am unhappy with the buyback" thread and try and debate, argue, and throw stones over and over again. As you mentioned jhawkIver, Why bother? No one is going to change my personal opinion of the settlement. So why are these same few guys completely INTENT on arguing with us? I guess I will never understand.
 

DanB36

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...and there are a few guys (we all know who they are) who lack either basic reading comprehension skills, or any interest in honest conversation. These are the ones who attribute statements, beliefs, and motives to the first group, despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever that the first group have made those statements, hold those beliefs, or have those motives. These are the ones who will lie about another person's posting history, just to give an excuse to ignore them.

I guess I will never understand.
No, you won't, as long as you prefer to lie about other posters rather than think about what they're posting.
 
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mjLyco

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First draft

Edit: new thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=463716

Here is my first draft. Please let me know what you think (constructive criticism) and please correct the spelling in grammar. I'm terrible at those. :)

I object to the settlement proposed for the case of VOLKSWAGEN “CLEAN DIESEL” MARKETING, SALES PRACTICES, AND PRODUCTS LIABILITY LITIGATION, MDL No. 2672 CRB (JSC).

Under the proposed settlement, as an original owner, I have the options of:

1. Having my vehicle brought into EPA compliance through some fix that has yet to be determined and receive a lump sum settlement payment.
2. Sell my vehicle to Volkswagen for NADA Clean trade value plus 20% plus $2983.73 plus a milage modifier that may be negative or positive.
3. Opt out of the proposed settlement.

Option 1 is not a viable option as it, by Volkswagen’s own testimony, will reduce power and fuel efficiency. No amount of money turns a vehicle modified in this way back into the car that we paid for in good faith.

Option 2 is an unfair judgement for the following reasons:
I. Clean retail value and not clean trade value should be used for compensating owners.
a. We are not trading in the vehicle but rather are selling it back as a retail transaction.
b. In my state of NJ and others, there are tax savings related to trade ins.
c. There is precedent (e.g. Toyota’s buyback of Tacoma trucks) with relation to using retail values instead of trade in values.
d. Using retail values would remove any tax ambiguity from state to state.

II. Not all options are listed in NADA values.
a. Using a 2010 Golf as an example, there is no listing for the cold weather package or HID headlamps.

III. The milage modifier should be thrown out.
a. The number of miles that we drove our cars have no bearing on the initial fraud perpetrated by Volkswagen.
b. Having money taken off of the settlement because you drove the vehicle further than average is contrary to the nature of the fraud. The more miles you drove the car, the more you polluted the air where you live, work, and shop.

IV. The penalty award for fraud (20% plus $2983.73) should be simplified.
a. Adding an arbitrary dollar amount plus 20% may help owners of older vehicles, but hinders owners of newer vehicles who see a higher initial drop in value.
b. All owners should get the same compensation for the fraud perpetrated. The year your vehicle was manufactured has no bearing on the fraud and should have no bearing on compensation.

Option 3 would happen if the settlement is not amended. I, and others, may file individual lawsuits.

I would not have purchased my vehicle if I knew it polluted up to 40x over EPA mandates. Not only for moral reasons, but legal reasons. My car was sold to me in violation of the law. Volkswagen’s benefit of the bargain in this systematic fraud case is actually the full price of the car. It could be argued that the damages portion should be MSRP, dealer invoice, or full purchase price. This was systemic fraud on an unprecedented scale. Damages in my state and others is trebled in cases of systemic fraud.

Keeping that in mind, my proposed amended settlement offer is as follows:
1. Have the vehicle brought into EPA compliance though some fix that has yet to be determined, compensate owner for 50% of invoice price, and have the entire powertrain warrantied by VW for the life of the owner or 120k miles after the fix is implemented if the vehicle is sold.
2. Compensate owners 100% of invoice price if a vehicle can not be fixed.
3. If a vehicle can be fixed but the owner does not wish to have the car fixed, offer to buy back the vehicle for the September 15, 2015 NADA clean retail value with all applicable options, no modifier for milage, and a penalty award of $7,500.
4. Opt out of the proposed settlement
 
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dropnosky

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I get that there are people completely happy with their buyback. I get that those people disagree with those who aren't happy. But what I don't get is why they'd spend the time/effort to argue in a thread specifically set up for those who aren't happy to collect thoughts and organize complaints.

What is the end game here? Look tough on the Internet? I mean, seriously consider it. You have a settlement you are good with. It isn't going backwards. Even if you don't agree, if complaints cause the judge to change it... you'll get even more. Pretty stupid to actively fight against more $$$ even if you don't agree. Even if you are a fanboy.

Of course there is another option - those arguing have skin in the game in a different manner. Either way, there are plenty of other threads to have these arguments. This one is specifically for those who want to complain and you aren't changing minds here.
In this thread, and specifically in relation to the OPs points, i have asked several times how this or that complaint can be backed up and proved several times with zero real response, and the most likely response is a lash out and weirdly placed anger instead of making any kind or argument.

Let me put it this way, someone crafts a letter of complaint and it makes sense and puts forth reasoned argument based in fact, we all benefit, including those of us happy with the deal.

However, what we have a lot of is claims and rants that can be instantly disputed, and no willingness to argue the point. Enough letters like that? They all go in the trash unread.

If you want to publicly discuss how to craft a good letter that makes sense, lets have some room for criticism, that will only benefit the quality of the letter.

What we have right now is a whole series of complaints that range from absurd to reasoned, but very little willingness to hear argument apart from approval of whatever is written.
 

jhawklver

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In this thread, and specifically in relation to the OPs points, i have asked several times how this or that complaint can be backed up and proved several times with zero real response, and the most likely response is a lash out and weirdly placed anger instead of making any kind or argument.
Let me put it this way, someone crafts a letter of complaint and it makes sense and puts forth reasoned argument based in fact, we all benefit, including those of us happy with the deal.
However, what we have a lot of is claims and rants that can be instantly disputed, and no willingness to argue the point. Enough letters like that? They all go in the trash unread.
If you want to publicly discuss how to craft a good letter that makes sense, lets have some room for criticism, that will only benefit the quality of the letter.
What we have right now is a whole series of complaints that range from absurd to reasoned, but very little willingness to hear argument apart from approval of whatever is written.
It is interesting in that I didn't mention you (or anyone) by name but here you are defending yourself.
 

dropnosky

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It is interesting in that I didn't mention you (or anyone) by name but here you are defending yourself.
So what? I am obviously part of this evil cadre that is pissing in everyones cornflakes if you listen to some. Ive explained my view for your lack of understanding.

Also your response is a perfect example of an affronted response/non response to a reasoned statement, as i mentioned.
 

DanB36

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It is interesting in that I didn't mention you (or anyone) by name but here you are defending yourself.
So at whom was your ill-considered, passive-aggressive rant directed? @dropnosky, or myself? Or was it referring to people who weren't even involved in this thread?
 

jims2321

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In this thread, and specifically in relation to the OPs points, i have asked several times how this or that complaint can be backed up and proved several times with zero real response, and the most likely response is a lash out and weirdly placed anger instead of making any kind or argument.

Let me put it this way, someone crafts a letter of complaint and it makes sense and puts forth reasoned argument based in fact, we all benefit, including those of us happy with the deal.

However, what we have a lot of is claims and rants that can be instantly disputed, and no willingness to argue the point. Enough letters like that? They all go in the trash unread.

If you want to publicly discuss how to craft a good letter that makes sense, lets have some room for criticism, that will only benefit the quality of the letter.

What we have right now is a whole series of complaints that range from absurd to reasoned, but very little willingness to hear argument apart from approval of whatever is written.
You make sweeping claim that any of these claims/rant can be disputed instantly, but do not back it up with any facts? Prove what your say, by pointing to specifics claims that can be instantly disproved.
 
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