The settlement as proposed is complete BS

Diesl

Veteran Member
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Dec 3, 2012
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Chicago
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'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
diesl, I am also going to call you out on your claims: I want you to explain to us how an amount of money is going to recompense you for an environmental fraud.
Getmore, the fraud I'm referring to is not the environmental fraud: it's the consumer fraud. I'm fully aware that VW is going to have to pay a few billion dollars for the environmental fraud they committed. What I am complaining about is that the consumer fraud aspect is treated as completely secondary and subordinate to the interests of EPA and CARB (which may or may not represent our best ecological interests; see posts above in this thread about the ecological impact of the proposed settlement), while at the same time the proposed settlement is presented (in the executive summary; see my first post) as being primarily about compensating the owners. I find that dishonest and fraudulent.

As far as the amount is concerned, I already wrote about that in one of my previous posts.
 
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Diesl

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Dec 3, 2012
Location
Chicago
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'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
PaulN put together a really nice summary of what is wrong with the way the settlement is presented. I hope he is OK with me quoting it here in its entirety.
Original post at http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5099268&postcount=2486.

It would be so easy and clear to have made all this very simple, but they didn't... even after 9 months of wordsmithing.

They could have written:
- owner restitution for fraud is $0 unless you accept an option
- claim only proceeds with submission to and acceptance of an option
- class membership is withdrawn (you are opted out) without a claim indicating accepted option
Instead we get diffuse, indirect, and oblique language that does not want to be pinned down, and this (below) is just in the court's summary to the public, not even the real documentation...
Executive Summary of Proposed Class Settlement Program
"...Class Members have two options:..."
There is no indication whether these are true options (optional) or forced choices to allow one to remain in the class.
"Class Members who do not exclude themselves from the Class Settlement Program will receive a cash payment in addition to either the Buyback / Lease Termination or the free Approved Emissions Modification..."
This does not indicate that declining both options excludes one from the class, nor does it stipulate the options are required to have been accepted to receive a cash payment.
Benefits to Owners / Lessees
Buyback
"Owners receive their Vehicle Value, plus an additional cash payment (“Owner Restitution”). The Owner Restitution payment is calculated at 20% of the Vehicle Value plus $2,986.73. The minimum Owner Restitution payment for any Class Member—to be paid on top of the Vehicle Value—will be $5,100."
This does not stipulate that the cash is dependent on accepting the buyback.
Approved Emissions Modification
"If a modification for a particular engine type ultimately is approved, Class Members who own those cars will be notified when the modification is ready, and will be able to bring their cars into a Volkswagen or Audi dealership to have the Approved Emissions Modification performed free of charge. They will also receive the same Owner Restitution or Lessee Restitution payment as available to owners or lessees who choose a Buyback or Lease Termination."
This does not stipulate that the cash is dependent on accepting the fix.
"If no modification is approved for your car before May 1, 2018, you will be notified that no emissions modification is available. At that point, you will have until June 1, 2018, to accept a Buyback or exclude yourself from the Class."
This does not state that declining the buyback excludes one from the class.
"If you own a vehicle for which an approved modification does become available, you will be able to receive that modification free of charge, but the restitution payment will be paid only to those who choose to participate in the Class Settlement Program and who do not opt out."
This does not state that participation means accepting an option; in fact the use of the word "and" supports that choosing to participate and not opting out are not necessarily the same thing, but two things.
How to Obtain Settlement Benefits
Summary
"This Class Settlement Program gives Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle owners and lessees a choice between
(1) a Buyback (based on pre-September 18, 2015 market value) or Lease Termination
and
(2) a free Approved Emissions Modification
plus (boldface in the original)
(3) a cash payment ranging, for most owners, from $5,100 to approximately $10,000 per vehicle."
That is three numbered choices being given, the third is cash restitution.
Maybe this will get cleared up during the comments period, or the court will take notice and present a clearer picture, especially concerning the owner restitution, class membership, the options, the claim, and what defined relationships these have among each other.”
 
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bristolvw

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Oct 31, 2012
Location
Bristol, VT
TDI
2010 Sportwagen
The values for the cars are lower than folks think. When I bought my used 2010 a couple of years ago, there were 2011 cars with less miles going for the same money I paid (12500). You could buy all kinds of sportwagens for short money. Fast forward to last fall. Are you saying somehow the market improved so dramatically that vw isnt paying enough? That simply isnt rtue. The values were down way before dieselgate. And people...including dealers were chalking it up to the volume of new tdis on the market. Asserting that the cars are somehow worth a ton now, when they werent last year is bogus. Simple greed. Because I did watch the numbers before and after...and the deal vw is offering is way more than the cars would have gotten without the scandal.
I admit I was caught off guard with thinking my 2010 JSW was worth more than it really was. My buyback offer is setting a trade-in value of $7,800 on the car as of last September. I would have thought I could have traded it in for at least $10k. Car has 150k on it but still doesn't feel older. At this point, I'm hoping VW comes out with some very good incentives and I can push dealer some since we paid full MSRP the last time. Otherwise, probably take the check and go get another used car unless the fix becomes available.
 

MichVW

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Location
Michigan
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2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about, as it seems that people are more upset with the START number than they are with the END number.

The proposal is TRADE IN VALUE 9/15 + 20% of that value + $2900.

If the Trade in Value is so unfair, then would everyone be happier with

RETAIL VALUE 9/15 + $2900?

At the end, if I choose the buyback, I will be getting something back that is at least 4 or 5 thousand more than I could have gotten in August 2015, under any circumstances.

I am not sure why it matters if they got that number by taking deductions from MSRP, or by adding to trade in or any other measure of value.

You must be one of the guys that "sells" (read": gives away) your vehicles for trade in price in the past and are ok with that. I am not. I value vehicles for a living working for a major insurance carrier. Even Insurance companies pay somewhere between Private party Value and Retail Value for your vehicle in the event of a total loss. They also take into consideration ALL options (Something VW is not doing with their buyback offer)

The proper offer should looks something like this:

NADA or KBB Retail value 9/15 (Including all vehicle Options that affect value) + 20% + $2900.00 - Mileage deduction = Settlement

Someone Pointed out that the court docs called for "Trade in value". They did not! They called for "retail value" and have mentioned "market value" several times. Market value is NOT trade in value. As I mentioned, VW arrived at retail value by using a low ball figure to start with and then tacking on 20% plus a $2900.00 payment. Hardly "Substantial compensation"

Also VW agreed to to court order on 5/24

Judge Breyer stated:

"Second, in addition -- and I want to emphasize this. In
addition to the buy-back or modification, the settlement pays
substantial monetary compensation to the proposed class of
2-liter-engine owners and lessees."

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl

Lastly, Mr. PFCoppinger..... Yes, I want something for having to wait 1 year to do sell my vehicles. I have a growing family and wanted to sell my 2011 Golf back in September 2015. Couldn't do it without taking a massive loss. On top top of that, now I am scared to drive either of my vehicles because I don't want to exclude myself from the class by getting in an accident where my vehicle is deemed a total loss (Per the outlined settlement). VW has done some really crappy things and continues to do so...

It is sad to see so many VW apologists come out of the woodwork.
 

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Alabama
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2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2013 Beetle, 2013 Touareg
Someone Pointed out that the court docs called for "Trade in value". They did not! They called for "retail value" and have mentioned "market value" several times. Market value is NOT trade in value. As I mentioned, VW arrived at retail value by using a low ball figure to start with and then tacking on 20% plus a $2900.00 payment. Hardly "Substantial compensation"
One big thing that is in play, the CAS, DOJ, and FTC all crafted agreements, and they are all different.

DOJ calls for Replacement Retail Value, CAS and FTC doesn't even use those words anywhere.
CAS indicates this is NADA clean trade in based, DOJ and FTC don't, FTC just prints a table of numbers, with no indication how those came into existence.

Through clever wording, you can say they are paying retail replacement value, but the DOJ doesn't call for owner compensation. There are consumer payments in the FTC docs, but no indication how the trade in value was crafted. This entire process is intended to be opaque.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It is sad to see so many VW apologists come out of the woodwork.
Equally sad to see so many Chicken Littles, too. :cool:

I personally think VAG's offer is more than fair. And all these cars that have been in use all this time, you've gotten to enjoy the better fuel economy afforded by the "cheat" the whole time! Lots of people are trying to find ways to sneak foreign market cars into this country, and here Volkswagen did it for us! They're already here!

Now if they could just sneak a diesel T5 in for me that would be great. ;)
 

CraziFuzzy

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Jurupa Valley
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'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
I am in the "don't use NADA Clean Trade in as a way to value my car" camp...
I cannot believe all the guys that think Trade in Value is acceptable to you??!!
trade in value is representative of a car dealer's buying price on a car they hope to clean, and flip for a profit OR send to auction and make a profit. Trade in Value has NOTHING to do with the value of our vehicles. We are not "trading" our cars in for another car. VW is "Buying" our cars much like someone on the street would buy our cars? After all this fraud, this mess... Why should VW be entitled to wholesale price from our vehicles??
Second... Insult to injury.... VW then tacks on 20% and $2,XXX and calls it "generous/substantial compensation" but in reality, they have just increased the buyback value of our cars from NADA "trade in" to pennies above "retail value" as required by the court.
****The compensation should be ADDED to the value of our cars, not part of it.
This is completely ridiculous.
Honestly, I think it's just the way they chose to do the math.
Buyback = Trade+20%+2900
Modification = 20%+2900

They are using the 20% for two different purposes (adjusting to retail OR compensating for loss of performance), but only needing to do the math step once. Alternatively, they could have done:
Buyback = Retail + 2900
Modification = ??? + 2900

honestly, it doesn't matter - it seems more and more people are hung up no the name they called the different chunks of money than the actual amount of money given out. I think many would have been happier if they had just brought out the calculator on day 1, and NOT made everyone read through the tables.
 

dropnosky

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Location
RI
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2000 Jetta 6 speed, 2012 Passat DSG
It is sad to see so many VW apologists come out of the woodwork.

apologists? its amazing to me how many people are unaware of just how unprecedented this buyback offer is, and they are shrieking for a few more grand or money for a freaking utility trailer they bought to tow.

What's happening now has never happened. Owners have never received such a huge compensation offer for effectively no harm done to them personally.

some of the other cheats-

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vw-just-the-latest-in-long-history-of-cheating-car-companies/

excerpt-
Unaware their cars needed to be serviced, vehicle owners continued driving, damaging their exhaust systems and releasing more pollution. As part of its settlement with federal officials, Honda agreed to extend warranties for all the affected models, as well as provide free oil changes and tuneups.
So up to now, owner compensations for emissions cheats have been nothing except a recall, and in the above case I could find, extended warranties and some minor services.

Meanwhile flash forward and in a new precedent, a company is forced to offer to buy back half a million cars for in many cases, more money than people have in them, and for a much less environmentally damaging cheat than prior emissions cheats.

Its time we kept things in perspective just a tiny bit and toned down the self righteous greed.

I like my car, I still like my car. VW deserves to be punished for their crime, but never in a million years did I expect such a huge windfall of potential money to come MY way. I expected a recall letter and a fine to go to the EPA, maybe a few service incentive offers and extended warranties as before.
 

MichVW

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Location
Michigan
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2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
Honestly, I think it's just the way they chose to do the math.
Buyback = Trade+20%+2900
Modification = 20%+2900
They are using the 20% for two different purposes (adjusting to retail OR compensating for loss of performance), but only needing to do the math step once. Alternatively, they could have done:
Buyback = Retail + 2900
Modification = ??? + 2900
honestly, it doesn't matter - it seems more and more people are hung up no the name they called the different chunks of money than the actual amount of money given out. I think many would have been happier if they had just brought out the calculator on day 1, and NOT made everyone read through the tables.
Doing it the way they did allows the media outlets to paste " VW owners to get $5100-10000 compensation" which is blatantly false. It is very creative advertising and a genius way of getting most people to say "Hey, I am getting $5100-10,000 in compensation, this is GREAT"

So, in other words, they get to commit fraud on a massive scale, essentially pick their punishment, and buy back my vehicle at wholesale pricing? Retail should be the starting point and compensation should be on top of that. As of right now, there is really no compensation as the compensation they have laid out, is being used to bring my vehicle up to retail value. Clever really...

As I said, I want something for fraud, deceit, being held hostage etc etc.. As the judge pointed out, that is where the "substantial compensation" comes in. Read the quote I posted above.
 

MichVW

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Location
Michigan
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2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
apologists? its amazing to me how many people are unaware of just how unprecedented this buyback offer is, and they are shrieking for a few more grand or money for a freaking utility trailer they bought to tow.

What's happening now has never happened. Owners have never received such a huge compensation offer for effectively no harm done to them personally.

some of the other cheats-

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vw-just-the-latest-in-long-history-of-cheating-car-companies/

excerpt-


So up to now, owner compensations for emissions cheats have been nothing except a recall, and in the above case I could find, extended warranties and some minor services.

Meanwhile flash forward and in a new precedent, a company is forced to offer to buy back half a million cars for in many cases, more money than people have in them, and for a much less environmentally damaging cheat than prior emissions cheats.

Its time we kept things in perspective just a tiny bit and toned down the self righteous greed.

I like my car, I still like my car. VW deserves to be punished for their crime, but never in a million years did I expect such a huge windfall of potential money to come MY way. I expected a recall letter and a fine to go to the EPA, maybe a few service incentive offers and extended warranties as before.
To the bold above... You had better do your research before spouting off inaccurate statements. Yes, there likely has never been a buyback of this scale, but buybacks have used much more compensation. Read up on the Toyota Tacoma rusty frame buyback.. KBB retail value (Excellent condition) + 50% = Settlement. Do your research..
 

MichVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
apologists? its amazing to me how many people are unaware of just how unprecedented this buyback offer is, and they are shrieking for a few more grand or money for a freaking utility trailer they bought to tow.

What's happening now has never happened. Owners have never received such a huge compensation offer for effectively no harm done to them personally.

some of the other cheats-

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vw-just-the-latest-in-long-history-of-cheating-car-companies/

excerpt-


So up to now, owner compensations for emissions cheats have been nothing except a recall, and in the above case I could find, extended warranties and some minor services.

Meanwhile flash forward and in a new precedent, a company is forced to offer to buy back half a million cars for in many cases, more money than people have in them, and for a much less environmentally damaging cheat than prior emissions cheats.

Its time we kept things in perspective just a tiny bit and toned down the self righteous greed.

I like my car, I still like my car. VW deserves to be punished for their crime, but never in a million years did I expect such a huge windfall of potential money to come MY way. I expected a recall letter and a fine to go to the EPA, maybe a few service incentive offers and extended warranties as before.

For your reading pleasure:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/toyota-offers-to-buy-back-rusty-tacomas/?_r=0

On the buybacks, Toyota will pay 1.5 times the suggested retail price for a vehicle in excellent condition as calculated by Kelley Blue Book.

The program is good for consumers because Toyota is willing not just to buy back vehicles, but to pay much more than book value, said Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety. “Traditionally, when manufacturers have bought back older vehicles they have used the Kelley Blue Book straight price,” Mr. Ditlow said. “Taking care of customers is how Toyota gets to No. 1.”
 

grawk

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Location
Oak Ridge, TN
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'14 JSW TDI (used)
Anyone who feels like the offer isn't fair is allowed to exclude themselves from the class and sue separately. So this settlement only applies to people willing to accept the settlement. Beyond that, it's all semantics.
 

dropnosky

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Location
RI
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To the bold above... You had better do your research before spouting off inaccurate statements. Yes, there likely has never been a buyback of this scale, but buybacks have used much more compensation. Read up on the Toyota Tacoma rusty frame buyback.. KBB retail value (Excellent condition) + 50% = Settlement. Do your research..
I guess you missed the numerous times i said emissions cheats. Have there been buybacks for safety and other reasons? Certainly, but thats not what im talking about there chief. As i said, this is unprecedented for emissions fraud cases when there are zero safety issues.
 

PFCoppinger

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Worcester, MA
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2014 Jetta Sportwagen
It doesn't matter whether they call it "trade in," "retail," or "Mrs. Pouncy Pants Value." The only thing that matters is the total, which happens to be close to $5500 more than my car was worth 10 months ago, and probably $7500 more than it is worth today.

Sure there is a risk that it gets wrecked in the next two months-- which would cost me about $5000. But getting in a wreck like that is something that happens, for the average driver, maybe three times in a driving lifetime of 60+ years. What is the probability that it might happen during a specific 90 days in 2016? 1%? 5%? Anything that costs more than $1 or $200 or so to hedge that risk is a stupid waste of money. Spending thousands on a different car, which is also depreciating and must also be maintained, in order to hedge that risk is foolish in the extreme. Eek! I might lose $5000! Let me go spend $10,000 so that I avoid the risk of losing $5,000!
 

dgoodhue

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Location
Framingham, MA
TDI
'14 6MT JSW
The trade in value plus 20% and $2987 is little underwhelming at first glance. The real value of the settlement is holding the value to the September 2015 NADA value. In theory you could drive you car for almost 3 years with no loss in normal depreciation if you drive average miles.
 

FVWVWF

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Sep 18, 2011
Location
Canada
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Sold - 2012 TDI Highline Manual
To the bold above... You had better do your research before spouting off inaccurate statements. Yes, there likely has never been a buyback of this scale, but buybacks have used much more compensation. Read up on the Toyota Tacoma rusty frame buyback.. KBB retail value (Excellent condition) + 50% = Settlement. Do your research..
Rusty frames....ya, that was a safety concern
Faulty ignition....ya, safety
Airbags....yup, safety again

Give us a link to a buyback that is non-operator/personal safety related. If you dont want to be accused of spouting inaccurate statements.
 

jdyno718

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Location
Colorado
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2012 VW Passat SE Manual
Doing it the way they did allows the media outlets to paste " VW owners to get $5100-10000 compensation" which is blatantly false. It is very creative advertising and a genius way of getting most people to say "Hey, I am getting $5100-10,000 in compensation, this is GREAT"

So, in other words, they get to commit fraud on a massive scale, essentially pick their punishment, and buy back my vehicle at wholesale pricing? Retail should be the starting point and compensation should be on top of that. As of right now, there is really no compensation as the compensation they have laid out, is being used to bring my vehicle up to retail value. Clever really...

As I said, I want something for fraud, deceit, being held hostage etc etc.. As the judge pointed out, that is where the "substantial compensation" comes in. Read the quote I posted above.
I'm calling BS! the $5,100 - $10-000 stated compensation is accurate for me for both the buy-back and the modification options. Doing the calcs I would, today, net $5,540 for buy-back or $5,452 for modification. This amount is very generous and as stated the largest settlement any vehicle owners have seen due to emissions cheats in history.
 

MichVW

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Location
Michigan
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2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
Gents.. Do what you will. If you believe that "Clean Trade in" is an accurate way of valuing your vehicle and you are happy with the settlement, by all means, accept it and move on. I could care less what the specifics of the buyback are in terms of what laws were broken or if this was a safety concern or not. The fact is that fraud was committed on a massive scale, my two vehicles were sold to me via lies, cheats and misrepresentations. That is really what this is about no? This is the Largest Buyback ever, but it is also the largest case of fraud, cheating, lies, misrepresentation, false advertising, and law Breaking that has ever been linked to an auto manufacturer. You cheat on a large scale over the course of several years = you pay on a large scale! VW gambled and lost. Sorry for VW!

I have a few major issues with the buyback offer....

1) Clean trade in value is not "market value", it is also not retail value or private party value. It should not be used as a starting pint to value our vehicles. Any one of us, if we decided to sell before September 2015, could have received much more than Clean trade in value via a private sale. That is fact! Do all you guys that are in favor of the buyback proposal list your used vehicles as "trade in value" when selling them on craigslist or via another website like auto trader? I doubt it... When I replace both my VWs with 2 comparable USED vehicles I will have to pay tax, title and other fees. I will also likely be paying a negotiated "retail value" if buying from a dealer used car lot.
Trade in value is not representative of what my vehicles are worth now or what they were worth prior to September 2015. Compensation is just that..... COMPENSATION. It should have nothing to due with the replacement value of our vehicles.

2) Options.. I have Xenon lamps. $700.00 MSRP. Not even an option on the settlement breakdown? Why? They are sought after much like a sunroof would be. Why are they not considered? When an insurance company totals your vehicle, they assign added value to EVERY option your vehicle has. Why does VW get a "pass" on certain high dollar options but considers others? Tech Package? TDI cup addition? Nothing... Not to mention other lower cost options like spoilers, splash guards, Monster mats, rear cargo liners, premium alloy wheels.... All payed for by us, but no buyback value assigned... hmmmm.. Definitely a unique way of valuing a vehicle and unlike any insurance company methodology.

Like I said, If you reverse the math on the buyback offer you will see exactly what VW is paying you for your vehicle. Much less than what it was actually worth pre-scandal. This is all "smoke and mirrors the fingers never leave the hand" BS by VW looking for an easy way out while saving as many pennies as possible. Why not $3000.00 + 20%? Why $29XX.XX.. $29XX.XX is JUST ENOUGH to satisfy the courts and make everyone THINK they are getting a great deal.

Anyway... we can agree to disagree. Everyone will need to replace their vehicle. Everyone will need to pay tax, title, Licensing fees, doc fees etc. Everyone will likely pay Private party value or retail value for their new/used vehicles. No one, will pay trade in value for a new/used vehicle.

When does the promised Comment period finally begin?
 

dgoodhue

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Framingham, MA
TDI
'14 6MT JSW
I'm calling BS! the $5,100 - $10-000 stated compensation is accurate for me for both the buy-back and the modification options. Doing the calcs I would, today, net $5,540 for buy-back or $5,452 for modification. This amount is very generous and as stated the largest settlement any vehicle owners have seen due to emissions cheats in history.
The NADA book value for my car was $23,075 in Sept. 2015. With Sales Tax, Title & Fees. It would have cost me ~$25,040 to buy that car.

https://imgur.com/gallery/F1M7Q

VW generous buyback is $26,747 or $1,707, which is nowhere near $5100-10,000 advertised compensation. I had no reason to sell my new car anytime soon. I but my car new and keep them long term (10 years) to keep the average annual cost reasonable. The saving grace in this settlement is the frozen September value, so I will not have to pay addition deprecation. It will work out for because of the frozen September value.
 

RollingCoal

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Md
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2015 Golf Tdi SEL
Anyone who feels like the offer isn't fair is allowed to exclude themselves from the class and sue separately. So this settlement only applies to people willing to accept the settlement. Beyond that, it's all semantics.
The reality is that the settlement is working out great for some people, ok for others, bad for some, and very bad for another group. If you're in the group that it's working out well for congratulations. As another posted mentioned here he is viewing this as a financial windfall. For others it's quite the opposite. The math just doesn't work for some of the cars. Please understand that trying to convince the groups who the deal doesn't work out as well for that the deal is fair and great is really pointless. You don't know the financial situation of others or how the fraud committed by VW has affected each individual here.

Let's look at a few of the ways the who ordeal has negativity impacted individuals-

Inability to sell the car for anywhere near its pre scandal value for months and in some cases not at all. The market for tdis has not only been down in the dollar figures put forth by KBB and Nada but in terms of desirability and actual ability to sell the car it's been difficult if you needed to or wanted to since last fall. This isn't the fault of the consumer for buying a certain vehicle, it's VW's fault for commuting news worthy fraud on a massive scale.

Some folks wrecked their car during this time and received in some cases thousands less than they otherwise would have.

Some people bought a brand new car for upwards of 28-30k and are receiving less than that with an option to buy a another new car or have the brand new car gimped with a mod. If you think the modified version of these cars will retain the exact value they would have in a world without dieselgate you're drinking the kool aid. A lot of people with a car that is still practically new are more mad that they have to buy another car, credit factors aside, when the car they have is still basically new. Why should they be taking any hit at all here. At least swap the car out with a similar priced VW for these folks who didn't enjoy their car for a number of years and tens of thousands of miles like most customers. Think about it, some of these people are on their second oil change.

The potential risk of driving said vehicle between now and the time when the settlement is final is a small financial risk for some and a larger one for others with newer cars worth much more.

For those who the buyback math is bad you get to chose between two options that may or may not make you whole. Ending up with a similar car with similar miles and a higher principal on your auto loan isn't being made whole and that will be the reality for some people who feel compelled to sell the car back.

The unknown repercussions of the fix itself are a large risk for some people. Yes they're going to warrantee some parts but we don't know the details. What if your HPFP gernades from the extra strain on the engine or other issues arise. Your in for more fun dealing with VW warrantee process potentially due to the modification of your car from its factory configuration. What's going to happen when a system that VW deems unrelated because they just don't know for sure fails and you get to pay the bill. Maybe it would have failed without the mod but maybe it wouldn't. From a risk assessment standpoint there are a lot of variables here. I don't have faith in VW right now to make a major fix on any of these vehicles with enough time to test long term impacts. Great, 150k warrantee on emissions parts. 150k is nothing for a lot of people and if the longer term impact on their car causes major issues that wouldn't have been there before it's still a financial loss, however big or small, caused by fraud.

The idea that just doing nothing is a reasonable choice for anyone dissatisfied with the offer is extremely flimsy and one dimensional. A car is a major financial factor for most Americans. It's not an insignificant cost. If you're suggesting that doing nothing is a valid choice then you're suggesting that people who aren't happy should just roll over and be defrauded by VW. This suggestion basically states that if your not happy you should accept your cars new deflated value, accept any additional loss incurred if you total it, accept that it may more difficult to sell in the future, accept that in some ways more significant than others a fraud perpetuated by self serving executives will limit the choices you have with what to do with your vehicle in the future.

I don't necessarily even suggest that all of the above are going to be real problems for a large group of people but I'm tired of many here just claiming that no one was really impacted by the scam and even further that we benefitted from all the great fuel mileage. I for one didn't get enough miles out of the car to see any return on the premium I paid for a diesel, not by a long shot. Yes it got slightly better mileage then on the sticker but more than one dealer told me along the way how great the mileage was after break in. I didn't think it was because VW cheated i just assumed the epa tested a brand new unbroken-in car.

Edited* meant fuel pump not filter lol
 
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jdyno718

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Location
Colorado
TDI
2012 VW Passat SE Manual
The NADA book value for my car was $23,075 in Sept. 2015. With Sales Tax, Title & Fees. It would have cost me ~$25,040 to buy that car.

https://imgur.com/gallery/F1M7Q

VW generous buyback is $26,747 or $1,707, which is nowhere near $5100-10,000 advertised compensation. I had no reason to sell my new car anytime soon. I but my car new and keep them long term (10 years) to keep the average annual cost reasonable. The saving grace in this settlement is the frozen September value, so I will not have to pay addition deprecation. It will work out for because of the frozen September value.
"would have cost $25,040" Whatd did you actually pay?

Yes but why would anyone expect to pay/receive full retail value for a used car.... I certainly do not buy used cars at full retail value, I do however see countless people who think their used car is worth as much now as when they bought it.

My car is listed at $16,775 for Clean Retail on the link you sent. I think that amount is too high when compared to my local market at the time. In August 2015 the price dealers where seeking in my arear for my car was $12-$14k.
 
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flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Rusty frames....ya, that was a safety concern
Faulty ignition....ya, safety
Airbags....yup, safety again
Give us a link to a buyback that is non-operator/personal safety related. If you dont want to be accused of spouting inaccurate statements.
A buyback for safety reasons vs. a buyback for emissions fraud is a distinction without a difference.
In fact, the emissions fraud by VW was an intentional violation of federal laws.
The safety buybacks resulted from defects that were ignored or denied, not programmed in.
 

Jmartz

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Location
New Jersey
TDI
2015 Golf SEL
Has anyone ever enjoyed buying a car? I spent the last week looking at cars trying to figure out what I am going to get next. I like my 15 Golf TDI. But I'm not going to drive it much anymore because I'm close to 35k miles. There is already a chart online showing the mileage adjustments Which is rubbish in my case I bought the car in early August 2014. Of course it's gonna have more than 15k miles on it! My anger isn't about the settlement or their sales tactics or whatever it's because now I have to go deal with some of the scummiest salesman in the world and it's time consuming, stressful, and frankly not what I had planned for my summer. Not to mention I have to pay $200 to transfer plates, or $480 to get new ones on top of taxes, title, etc.

Yes, I feel they should compensate me for this. I planned to keep the car but I don't want them to modify it. I like it just the way it is. If I wait until the fix deadline I'll be even more over mileage. Personally I hope if I opt out and wait for the fix; the trade values can be based on the time of opt out. I won't opt out unless there is something in writing showing me exactly what happens in 2018 if they can't fix the cars or I decide that the fix makes me want to trade it. Unfortunately the settlement documents are vague in that regard.
 

MichVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
The reality is that the settlement is working out great for some people, ok for others, bad for some, and very bad for another group. If you're in the group that it's working out well for congratulations. As another posted mentioned here he is viewing this as a financial windfall. For others it's quite the opposite. The math just doesn't work for some of the cars. Please understand that trying to convince the groups who the deal doesn't work out as well for that the deal is fair and great is really pointless. You don't know the financial situation of others or how the fraud committed by VW has affected each individual here.

Let's look at a few of the ways the who ordeal has negativity impacted individuals-

Inability to sell the car for anywhere near its pre scandal value for months and in some cases not at all. The market for tdis has not only been down in the dollar figures put forth by KBB and Nada but in terms of desirability and actual ability to sell the car it's been difficult if you needed to or wanted to since last fall. This isn't the fault of the consumer for buying a certain vehicle, it's VW's fault for commuting news worthy fraud on a massive scale.

I actually attempted to trade my 2011 in on a new vehicle back in February. We had an addition to our family and the golf just wasn't roomy enough for the family. 3 dealers wouldn't even accept it as a trade and the 4th assigned a VERY LOW dollar figure to it explaining that there were "too many unknowns with the Deiselgate scandal"

Some folks wrecked their car during this time and received in some cases thousands less than they otherwise would have.

Some people bought a brand new car for upwards of 28-30k and are receiving less than that with an option to buy a another new car or have the brand new car gimped with a mod. If you think the modified version of these cars will retain the exact value they would have in a world without dieselgate you're drinking the kool aid. A lot of people with a car that is still practically new are more mad that they have to buy another car, credit factors aside, when the car they have is still basically new. Why should they be taking any hit at all here. At least swap the car out with a similar priced VW for these folks who didn't enjoy their car for a number of years and tens of thousands of miles like most customers. Think about it, some of these people are on their second oil change.

The potential risk of driving said vehicle between now and the time when the settlement is final is a small financial risk for some and a larger one for others with newer cars worth much more.

For the membership... Any idea how quickly an older 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 TDI could be totaled out in a moderate fender bender? Fairly quick... The risk lies in driving the older vehicles that would be easier to total out.

Insurance companies would use today's deflated ACV to assign value. in most states there is a 75-80% threshold. Meaning that if the damages amount to or exceed 75-80% of the vehicle's ACV, The insurance company calls it a total loss. They are bound by the policy your purchased and could care less about a buyback settlement offer. For VW to eliminate (from the class) those who are involved in a total loss situation, between now and buyback time, it completely unfair and ridiculous.


For those who the buyback math is bad you get to chose between two options that may or may not make you whole. Ending up with a similar car with similar miles and a higher principal on your auto loan isn't being made whole and that will be the reality for some people who feel compelled to sell the car back.

The unknown repercussions of the fix itself are a large risk for some people. Yes they're going to warrantee some parts but we don't know the details. What if your fuel filter gernades from the extra strain on the engine or other issues arise. Your in for more fun dealing with VW warrantee process potentially due to the modification of your car from its factory configuration. What's going to happen when a system that VW deems unrelated because they just don't know for sure fails and you get to pay the bill. Maybe it would have failed without the mod but maybe it wouldn't. From a risk assessment standpoint there are a lot of variables here. I don't have faith in VW right now to make a major fix on any of these vehicles with enough time to test long term impacts. Great, 150k warrantee on emissions parts. 150k is nothing for a lot of people and if the longer term impact on their car causes major issues that wouldn't have been there before it's still a financial loss, however big or small, caused by fraud.

The idea that just doing nothing is a reasonable choice for anyone dissatisfied with the offer is extremely flimsy and one dimensional. A car is a major financial factor for most Americans. It's not an insignificant cost. If you're suggesting that doing nothing is a valid choice then you're suggesting that people who aren't happy should just roll over and be defrauded by VW. This suggestion basically states that if your not happy you should accept your cars new deflated value, accept any additional loss incurred if you total it, accept that it may more difficult to sell in the future, accept that in some ways more significant than others a fraud perpetuated by self serving executives will limit the choices you have with what to do with your vehicle in the future.

I don't necessarily even suggest that all of the above are going to be real problems for a large group of people but I'm tired of many here just claiming that no one was really impacted by the scam and even further that we benefitted from all the great fuel mileage. I for one didn't get enough miles out of the car to see any return on the premium I paid for a diesel, not by a long shot. Yes it got slightly better mileage then on the sticker but more than one dealer told me along the way how great the mileage was after break in. I didn't think it was because VW cheated i just assumed the epa tested a brand new unbroken-in car.
Correct... Plenty of us were impacted.. Plenty of us have been in a holding pattern since September 2015. Plenty of us were put in a bad situation by VW. VW hardly communicated with anyone for 9 months. Using the notion that "This wasn't a safety related buyback" or "This is the largest emission buyback ever" is comical, and surely a poor way to justify any point being made that we should all be satisfied with the settlement.


Agree... very well written. Very good points. I added bold comments above.
 

dgoodhue

Veteran Member
Joined
May 3, 2014
Location
Framingham, MA
TDI
'14 6MT JSW
"would have cost $25,040" Whatd did you actually pay?

Yes but why would anyone expect to pay/receive full retail value for a used car.... I certainly do not buy used cars at full retail value, I do however see countless people who think their used car is worth as much now as when they bought it.

My car is listed at $16,775 for Clean Retail on the link you sent. I think that amount is too high when compared to my local market at the time. In August 2015 the price dealers where seeking in my arear for my car was $12-$14k.
I paid ~$27,300 OTD. I ma not unhappy with the buyout at all. It could be the cheapest new car I ever (assuming it doesn't get totaled in the next couple months) Your are probably one of very few who actually thinks their is overvalue per the NADA. If I had an older TDI, I would probably take the repair money if it is available.
 

LogicBomb

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2014
Location
SoCal
TDI
2014 Passat
Correct... Plenty of us were impacted.. Plenty of us have been in a holding pattern since September 2015. Plenty of us were put in a bad situation by VW. VW hardly communicated with anyone for 9 months. Using the notion that "This wasn't a safety related buyback" or "This is the largest emission buyback ever" is comical, and surely a poor way to justify any point being made that we should all be satisfied with the settlement.
Agree... very well written. Very good points. I added bold comments above.

Perhaps a mean of trade in value and retail value at the time, is a more fair assessment of the vehicles?

When my wife's RSX was totaled out, they didn't give her trade in value for it. She was given a mean of the last 20 or so retailed RSXs within 50 miles. This resulted in a $12,000 payment for a car that was worth probably no more than $8-9,000 in private party sale. I think private party or even the average of trade in value / retail price, which is probably pretty close to private party value, is a more fair metric.
 

fredthe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Location
Bowie, MD
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagon SEL DSG
I won't opt out unless there is something in writing showing me exactly what happens in 2018 if they can't fix the cars or I decide that the fix makes me want to trade it. Unfortunately the settlement documents are vague in that regard.
Your case is explicitly covered:
Class members have the option to have Volkswagen buy back their Eligible Vehicles (in exchange for all
title, interest and possession). You will need to make a claim for the Buyback at
www.VWCourtSettlement.com or by mail by September 1, 2018.
and
If no emissions modification is approved for your Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, then you will have an
opportunity to choose a Buyback or you may withdraw from the Class Action Settlement.
 

MichVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
Perhaps a mean of trade in value and retail value at the time, is a more fair assessment of the vehicles?
When my wife's RSX was totaled out, they didn't give her trade in value for it. She was given a mean of the last 20 or so retailed RSXs within 50 miles. This resulted in a $12,000 payment for a car that was worth probably no more than $8-9,000 in private party sale. I think private party or even the average of trade in value / retail price, which is probably pretty close to private party value, is a more fair metric.

Right on Logic...

That is correct. Insurance companies take the retail values of 15-25 vehicles that are being sold and "have been sold" in the local area to derive ACV for your totaled vehicle. They pro-rate each vehicle they find to account for differences in Mileage, Options and Condition. Once they boil everything down, they make a settlement offer to you based on the "Fair Market Value" of the average XYZ vehicle selling in your area. This is a MUCH MUCH more accurate and fair way to value a vehicle than the methodology VW is using.

I am not asking VW to use insurance company methodologies, but simply start with a fair/reasonable value and consider all options. Then, if they want to deduct for mileage etc... fine. But don't low ball me from the beginning, add in some fake compensation, and call it good.
 
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