Has anyone installed nozzles with no testing?

No cookies...pie. As seen at the world famous Moody's Diner, 5 miles from my house:

Facts are better then opinions and I wish there was more proof in this.while I'm sure there is some legit positives from the fancy digital calibration leading to perfect idle and perfect even burning from cyl to cyl....I also believe the if you can heat up fryer grease and run it thru the engine that there's some forgiveness in the engines fuel system. Crazy as it sounds I agree with pieces of what everyone has said...don't have $200 to calibrate,don't have a pop tester (even if I bought one where would I get shims if one was off?) so.......idk... With all the back and forth I'm still undecided. Lol didn't thinks snowball question would turn into this avalanche it has become.anyone close with a pop tester? 12401

Everything has its pluses and minuses.

The plus side to doing them yourself is saving $200. The minus side is not knowing if they're flowing evenly or causing damage. Does the plus outweigh the minus or the other way around.

The plus side to having them professionally calibrated is knowing they flow evenly and pop perfect. The minus died is the expense and time. Again, which one outweighs the other?

Everything on these cars is no different. Do you choose part A or part B, and from vendor A or vendor B (or C, D, E, etc).

Is you car running 'ok' good enough for you, or do you want it running perfectly, and how would you know the difference? Do you want to know? What's it worth to you to know?

These are all questions we wrestle with every day, and despite how....passionate....we get sometimes, no one else can answer for you.

Unfortunately facts won't come into play much because everyone sets up their injectors differently. Even if you just slap them on, they may be good enough to not cause damage and make the car run well. If that's what you're looking for, then take the step. But if you don't want to take that chance then it's best to seek the alternative, which in my estimation is chump change in the grand scheme of things and one item I don't have to worry about.

There is no brainwashing, no selling anything, and no snake oil involved, just logic. I run a laboratory, and my results and procedures must be verifiable and not guesses. As such it's part of who I am in everything I do. For me the calibration report with flow and pop data speaks volumes in a language and culture I understand, for others they may be Greek so they're easily dismissed. But when you think of the role the injectors play with regard to engine operability and the small sum involved, I fail to see why there is such animosity and outright hatred for having something do what it was engineered to do: pop at designed pressures and flow the same amounts.

Abacus said:

No cookies...pie. As seen at the world famous Moody's Diner, 5 miles from my house:

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MMMMMMMMMM pie. Had some wicked apple pie last night, as well as lemon meringue pie AND some cheese cake. I can feel my arteries hardening as I type.

Abacus said:

I fail to see why there is such animosity and outright hatred for having something do what it was engineered to do: pop at designed pressures and flow the same amounts.

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because some competing vendors "ain't got that" so they enlist "some guys" to go on the warpath for them to protect market share, credibility, etc.

Of course a competing retailer will strive to downplay the importance of a supporting service that they do not offer and can't offer. Maybe even encourage others to portray it as a scam or whatever, to try and blunt any competitive edge. I suppose that behavior is to be expected in a highly competitive marketplace when there's money at stake.

that's what it's all about to some...

Regardless of how it's couched in "aww shucks" and a carefully cultivated forum persona.

I don't have the time for that nonsense.

KERMA said:

because some competing vendors "ain't got that" so they enlist "some guys" to go on the warpath for them to protect market share, credibility, etc.

.

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Where's my cheque? Sure would be nice to be paid to say things about services that my or may not be needed.

Abacus said:

I'll type slowly so you can read it properly.

Not calibrating the nozzles upon installation is not installing them correctly, as has been discussed before. It may be 'good enough' since the car starts and runs, but it's not correct unless that is your definition of the term.

Not doing one thing correctly leads to not doing other things correctly, SUCH AS the Mark & Pray timing belt change and/or the timing it by ear.

NOW do you understand, if you'll half-ass one thing, you'll half-ass another thing, then another and so on. Anyone with 1/2 an IQ could have figured that out from the posts above but I guess even that was too simple, so I spelled it out for you above.

Let me know if you have any other life altering issues with which you need help.

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You gotta stop thinking your assumptions are fact If the pie is a peace offering, I'll gladly take a slice of lemon.

KERMA said:

because some competing vendors "ain't got that" so they enlist "some guys" to go on the warpath for them to protect market share, credibility, etc.

Of course a competing retailer will strive to downplay the importance of a supporting service that they do not offer and can't offer. Maybe even encourage others to portray it as a scam or whatever, to try and blunt any competitive edge. I suppose that behavior is to be expected in a highly competitive marketplace when there's money at stake.

that's what it's all about to some...

Regardless of how it's couched in "aww shucks" and a carefully cultivated forum persona.

I don't have the time for that nonsense.

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No, its just that "some guys" have actually done it and know that the propaganda is BS and "some guys" are sick of the lies and brainwashing for gains at the expense of good people.

Its also funny - who's the competing retailer you speak of?

Can open - worms everywhere...

I Think that one of the best things which could happen to this thread (and any other for that matter) is if people cite opinions only as opinion, and not as fact.

What I know from personal nozzle changes is that I have never had a melted piston, nor have I had one from any set of (uncalibrated) nozzles I have installed. As above, I always check primary pop pressure and spray pattern. Those data points have meaning to me, and seem to correlate well with the experiences of others who have done the same. I have also read that there have been melted pistons here and there, but I have not seen where those individuals pop-tested/checked spray pattern/checked group 13

I have no doubt that resetting / calibrating nozzles to factory break pressures with sophisticated equipment will likely get a more precise spray/burn, and that that is beneficial to VE series pump engines.

Does that correlate to the doom and destruction some have foretold? Not in my opinion.

But I personally would not just install them on bodies, install them in the car and drive - I would want to do some minimal verification prior.

Windex wins! I would at least fire them out of head and check in vdcs

I guess haters will be haters.

Nothing like vendors talking **** to each other.lol classy way to run a business

Windex said:

Can open - worms everywhere...

I Think that one of the best things which could happen to this thread (and any other for that matter) is if people cite opinions only as opinion, and not as fact.

What I know from personal nozzle changes is that I have never had a melted piston, nor have I had one from any set of (uncalibrated) nozzles I have installed. As above, I always check primary pop pressure and spray pattern. Those data points have meaning to me, and seem to correlate well with the experiences of others who have done the same. I have also read that there have been melted pistons here and there, but I have not seen where those individuals pop-tested/checked spray pattern/checked group 13

I have no doubt that resetting / calibrating nozzles to factory break pressures with sophisticated equipment will likely get a more precise spray/burn, and that that is beneficial to VE series pump engines.

Does that correlate to the doom and destruction some have foretold? Not in my opinion.

But I personally would not just install them on bodies, install them in the car and drive - I would want to do some minimal verification prior.

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You win the pie,

Windex said:

Can open - worms everywhere...

I Think that one of the best things which could happen to this thread (and any other for that matter) is if people cite opinions only as opinion, and not as fact.

What I know from personal nozzle changes is that I have never had a melted piston, nor have I had one from any set of (uncalibrated) nozzles I have installed. As above, I always check primary pop pressure and spray pattern. Those data points have meaning to me, and seem to correlate well with the experiences of others who have done the same. I have also read that there have been melted pistons here and there, but I have not seen where those individuals pop-tested/checked spray pattern/checked group 13

I have no doubt that resetting / calibrating nozzles to factory break pressures with sophisticated equipment will likely get a more precise spray/burn, and that that is beneficial to VE series pump engines.

Does that correlate to the doom and destruction some have foretold? Not in my opinion.

But I personally would not just install them on bodies, install them in the car and drive - I would want to do some minimal verification prior.

Click to expand...

Couldn't be said better. Personally I have installed 30+ sets of properly installed/calibrated bosio's.
Do they all work perfectly with zero issues? Yes.
Are my customers happy? Yes.
Do I have piece of mind they won't cause problems? Yes.
Have I wasted valuable hours of my time changing nozzles and checking? No.
Have I removed sets of self installed nozzles that have issues? Yep.

Everyone is welcome to do what they wish with their own car.

BuzzKen said:

Have I removed sets of self installed nozzles that have issues? Yep.

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What did you find? Bad nozzles? Wrong pop pressure and if so, by how much? Etc.

Not starting another war, just curious.

BuzzKen said:

Couldn't be said better. Personally I have installed 30+ sets of properly installed/calibrated bosio's.
Do they all work perfectly with zero issues? Yes.
Are my customers happy? Yes.
Do I have piece of mind they won't cause problems? Yes.
Have I wasted valuable hours of my time changing nozzles and checking? No.
Have I removed sets of self installed nozzles that have issues? Yep.

Everyone is welcome to do what they wish with their own car.

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Same as my experience.

I will take chances at times with my personal cars but cannot take any risks with customer cars. It is just not worth it. Also, I view TDI nozzles as a very critical part that deserves nothing but the most current best practices. After all, these are fuel throttled engines and the quality and control of fuel delivery at the injectors is one of the most critical to function parts.

turbovan+tdi said:

What did you find? Bad nozzles? Wrong pop pressure and if so, by how much? Etc.

Not starting another war, just curious.

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Quite honestly, don't know, don't care. Swapping in fresh sets fixed the issues. Nobody is going to pay for my time to figure out why they were bad.

BuzzKen said:

Quite honestly, don't know, don't care. Swapping in fresh sets fixed the issues. Nobody is going to pay for my time to figure out why they were bad.

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Ok, so your telling me you swap out supposed bad injectors and don't take 20 secs to test them?

How'd I know that statement would rear its ugly head....

turbovan+tdi said:

Ok, so your telling me you swap out supposed bad injectors and don't take 20 secs to test them?

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I diagnose it down to bad injection, change injectors only, car runs perfect. Therefore it is an injector issue and I just verified it. What else would you suggest I do?

Why.....send the injectors out for a flow and pop pressure test, making sure they test it 3 times as per SOP and take the median. Make sure you send it to a reputable shop (NOT Kerma or DBW since they are obviously 'biased') with the proper calibration equipment but don't tell them your reasoning.

But before doing that put them back in and put the car on a dyno and get the numbers, THEN swap to the other injectors and run the dyno again, at your expense of course.

Anything less won't be believed on here. In fact, even that will carry no weight since it's obviously only ONE incident and you're biased.

Abacus said:

Why.....send the injectors out for a flow and pop pressure test, making sure they test it 3 times as per SOP and take the median. Make sure you send it to a reputable shop (NOT Kerma or DBW since they are obviously 'biased') with the proper calibration equipment but don't tell them your reasoning.

But before doing that put them back in and put the car on a dyno and get the numbers, THEN swap to the other injectors and run the dyno again.

Anything less won't be believed on here. In fact, even that will carry no weight since it's obviously only ONE incident and you're biased.

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Sir, I hope we meet one day.

So I can shake your hand.

I'm sure anyone questioning why I wouldn't test them will be more than willing to pay to have this done for me.

Abacus... While I agree with most of what you have said... I think kerma and dbw (while probably setting the bar on calibration)would be biased cus that's their business. I'm not installing in a customer car( or I'd have calibrated to not deal with headaches)it's in my own kid having,bill paying, broke ass! Lol There's obviously tons if stories on here both good and bad most times with no hard evidence which is my only problem. I believe it can be done (I would at least shoot the injectors off the pump to see they aren't streaming) as tons have done b4 this newer technology. I also believe that at least a pop test would give you a window of info to go off, and yes this new calibration with them being able to calibrate down to the smallest of tolerances and prove would be most ideal.....I also believe some people are force feeding this as the ONLY way to do it when it wasn't avail for years whoile people were still stuffing nozzles in and having fun. Buzzken.... I would only want to know y they failed?. I have wasted my own time to figure out why something happened cus I'd like to know whether a faulty nozzle,tech error, etc. our shop wastes time all the time to ensure the customer gets a fair deal ans not raped like other shops... Part of the reason we stay busy in our area ans other shops are deas

BuzzKen said:

Sir, I hope we meet one day.

So I can shake your hand.

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Ken, you're killing me dude.

lol

Abacus said:

Why.....send the injectors out for a flow and pop pressure test, making sure they test it 3 times as per SOP and take the median. Make sure you send it to a reputable shop (NOT Kerma or DBW since they are obviously 'biased') with the proper calibration equipment but don't tell them your reasoning.

But before doing that put them back in and put the car on a dyno and get the numbers, THEN swap to the other injectors and run the dyno again, at your expense of course.

Anything less won't be believed on here. In fact, even that will carry no weight since it's obviously only ONE incident and you're biased.

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With all the leg humping calibration has gotten in the past few years, I'm surprised this hasn't been done yet. Surely for your $200 or so bucks, there has to be a gain of some sort right? Something tangible? Not just a warm and fuzzy feeling?

Instead of just 'Yeah, that will be $200... no I don't have any proof it actually does something.. Power? No idea.... Mileage? Nope nothing again. But I assure you, it's worth it over a simple pop test... just trust me'

/goes back to eating pie.

It would be way cool if the following scenario could be undertaken at a dyno/GTG day somewhere:
Have someone with an ALH show who is going to do the customary procedure of installing PP520's on the bodies the car ran in on. (if I had $10 for every time this has happened I could buy all of us nozzle balancing at DBW or Frank's)
Then the car gets tuned (RC3 or roughly equivalent Malone, VWMikel, or Kerma tune)
Then it gets run on the dyno
Then a calibrated set of PP520 and bodies get swapped in and the car gets run on the dyno again.
Nothing like irrefutable before and after facts to dispel opinion and apocryphal urban legend.

Full disclosure, 6-7 years ago I paid for DBW to install and balance my PP 520's. Was it worth it? I have no idea other then to me it seemed like to right thing to do. I've seen more then a few nozzles get installed at a Ho5G GTG and no one unhappy with the result.
Some real controlled data created in an open venue by someone with nothing to gain by the result would be most interesting.

Lots of people on here have mentioned how their cars run smoother when they've had their injectors calibrated, but obviously that doesn't matter, which is why I posted what I did above.

As to my $200, I don't need to spend $200 to attempt to satisfy people like yourself, whose mind won't be changed with $20,000 in testing, never mind $200. Therefore why waste it in the attempt? Exactly, there is no point. I work for a living and my money is far too valuable to try and change the mind of people I don't care about, I'd rather spend it on those I do care about.

swapmeat, do as others have suggested and you'll probably be fine. The car will run and most likely won't do any damage, but it also more than likely won't run as well as it could. But for now, that's all you need, right? You can always have it done later.

As to Kerma and DBW (DBW calibrates injectors for Kerma, BTW) being biased, you may be correct. However, it is my understanding DBW is the only one in the US with such equipment to calibrate the pop AND primary pressures. I remember a discussion some time ago about it and how the equipment costs in excess of $100,000. So unless you're doing it professionally, which DBW is, you wouldn't shell out that much money without some return on your investment. So that's who we're stuck with for the service. I don't particualrly care about their biases, I care about the flow and calibration report they send along with my injectors.

I have no quarrel with either approach and I'm not being critical of either approach. Anyone can spend their money how they choose, not for me to judge.
My point is that there is decided lack of measured quantifiable data that backs up or disproves either approach.
There are many dyno posts that show the gains of this turbo, that down pipe, this injector pump, etc. But to my knowledge nothing that gets to the heart of this argument.

Wait, so I'm supposed to drop $200 on butt dynos and more 'feelings'? If that was the case, everyone here would be running CAI's because we all know how those 'feel' after being installed.

You tell us your money is valuable, but you'll drop $200 on something that hasn't been proven to provide you with better FE or power. But boy, do those numbers on the report ever look good!

I hope you framed it and hung it on the wall.

It's called logic and common sense, but I guess those are lost on you. But then if you can't understand what a report is telling you, or understand HOW something works, I can see how you'd consider it a 'waste'. Some people think an education is a 'waste' as well. So who is the ignorant one, the one who spent the money on it or the one who didn't?

I rest my case.