Getting Diesel – from Natural Gas?

El Dobro

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I believe that's the fuel Audi's been using to race the R10 with.
 

10then34

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Due to the move towards natural gas powered power plants there is no surplus of natural gas on the northamerican continent. So I don't see anyone rushing to build GTL plants in the US. There is actually a movement afoot to build a number of large LNG terminals to import substantial quantities of LNG into the US. Wherever plans to build such a terminal become public, strong local political opposition ensues. Turning the gas into liquid close to the source would allow to import it via the established terminals for petro products.

Btw. it is possible to turn anything into diesel, including Lignite coal anthracite, garbage and algae. Just add water and heat, and turn your syn-gas into whatever you please.
 

LilRattler

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Now THAT could truly be labeled as "PREMIUM" Diesel!
The huge expensive LNG facilities that are going in on the Gulf Coast for importing LNG from Saudi :( could be skipped in favor of liquid diesel GOLD!!! Convert it over there, and load a regular oil tanker with #2!
No cryogenics, no public NIMBY syndrome, etc.
I'm sure it is NOT cheap though.
NG is an almost "perfect" fuel for everything though... GTL would further increase the demand for NG.
BTW, we gotta bunch of that there Natcheral Gas down here in Texas...
Need some?:rolleyes:

K.
 

PapaBare

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LilRattler said:
Now THAT could truly be labeled as "PREMIUM" Diesel!
The huge expensive LNG facilities that are going in on the Gulf Coast for importing LNG from Saudi :( could be skipped in favor of liquid diesel GOLD!!! Convert it over there, and load a regular oil tanker with #2!
No cryogenics, no public NIMBY syndrome, etc.
I'm sure it is NOT cheap though.
NG is an almost "perfect" fuel for everything though... GTL would further increase the demand for NG.
BTW, we gotta bunch of that there Natcheral Gas down here in Texas...
Need some?:rolleyes:

K.
And darn near more of it up here in Saskatchewan! ;)
 

10then34

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Once you have the NG on the continent, there is not much incentive in turning it into a liquid. Heck, you can even drive cars on it.

The elegance is really in doing the GTL at the source overseas and use the conventional tanker fleet to move it around the world.
 

snapdragon

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Shell sell this GTL in some European outlets called V Power diesel.
Nowhere near me sells it, so never tried it.
 

PapaBare

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I have found that if I use the Shell Ultra D2 around here that I loose 3 MPG on that tank.
I would like to be able to try this GTL and see how much different it really is.
 

MrMopar

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That's some nice fuel that results, but natural gas is much better used for other purposes. North America is already hitting a wall with supply vs. demand, so using any gas in that method is just driving up heating bills for everyone.

This could be a good production method for the many "stranded" gas reserves around the world, but I think some new long-range pipelines or LNG shipping could easily make it infeasable to really spend the time or money converting gas into diesel.
 

10then34

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wjdell said:
I wonder if it would make a good blend with dino - 70 cetane is very high.
I believe most of it is used for blending.

Otoh, a diesel engine designed to live on this stuff only should be able to get very low emissions (like a CNG or propane vehicle). No aromatics, no sulfur, homogenous burn characteristics.
 

Drivbiwire

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GTL fuel plants will be able to be converted to Biomass to GTL or "2nd Gen Biofuel" production facilities.

CNG or even Coal to GTL production allows a low cost entry into the GTL production process by allowing the use of inexpensive and readily available feedstocks from our shores without the need for importation (more so with coal than natural gas).

Given the fact the US has a projected 250 year supply of coal if it were to be used as a sole source for fuels. In 10-15 years, we could easily transition to Biomass for the entire supply and save or extend our coal supplies for future use.

Putting this into context for people Biomass refers to everything that can be grown. Instead of using the corn kernal or soy bean Biomass would use the part of the plant not suitable for human consumption and convert this into our fuel. This fuel is sulfur free AND results in a superior Jet Fuel or Diesel fuel or heavy fuel oil product (Power generation, Ocean shipping).

The way I see it, Biomass/GTL + nuclear + solar + Hydro + Wind = We can once and for all meet our energy needs and free ourselves of the Middle east oil supplies...

DB
 

wjdell

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yes let them eat their oil. Maybe the will figure a way to make food out of it.
 

10then34

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Drivbiwire said:
CNG or even Coal to GTL production allows a low cost entry into the GTL production process by allowing the use of inexpensive and readily available feedstocks from our shores without the need for importation (more so with coal than natural gas).
The problem with using coal as a feedstock is that you have all kinds of other good stuff in coal that makes it a rather messy process. While turning coal into syn-gas allows you to control some of the byproducts better than for example burning it in a coal fired power plant, still you have quite a bit of sulfur ammonia radium and uranium to deal with (if you go through a couple of 10thousand tons of coal/day, even trace elements such as uranium start to add up).

There is a lignite to natural gas plant in the coal basin of north dakota (going from NG to liquid fuels would just be another process). It took them 20 years and 100s of millions of investment to get within the SO2 requirements set out in their permit in 1982 (mind you, this was the Reagan administration giving the permit, so you can assume it wasn't particularly stringent). Now that they don't blow it through the smokestack anymore, they are feeding 40% of the US supply of sulfate fertilizer. Any more such plants and the market would overflow with the product.

Given the fact the US has a projected 250 year supply of coal if it were to be used as a sole source for fuels. In 10-15 years, we could easily transition to Biomass for the entire supply and save or extend our coal supplies for future use.
I don't think it is 'easy' to grow the required amounts of biomass, but such a process would not require high-grade cultured plants but would probably work well with President Bushes 'switchgrass'.

The way I see it, Biomass/GTL + nuclear + solar + Hydro + Wind = We can once and for all meet our energy needs and free ourselves of the Middle east oil supplies...
The way I see it: Conservation + conservation + conservation + nuclear + bio-fuels + wind will allow us to remain on this planet without burning through ALL the fossil fuels left to us as a legacy.

A first step would be to re-vamp taxation of motor vehicles and fuels to dissuade from anything bigger than a 4-cylinder Camry for non-commercial use. There is no place that joe sixpack has to get to that a regular passenger vehicle can't get him (no, you don't need a Yukon to pull your boat from the shed to the lake and the lake to the shed once a year each. go to united rentals and rent a 450 Power Stroke for that).
 

Drivbiwire

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Don't discount coal...Coal is simply the first step, without an inexpensive and readily available source TODAY GTL or biofuels have no future.

Again, coal and natural gas allow an inexpensive and immediate entry into the GTL production process at the lowest possible cost and with a relatively short term use ie my reference to 10-15 years vs our current direction of no end in site for petroleum.

Just imagine what would happen to the issues in the middle east if we stopped importing petroleum in 15 years. 15 years is a blink of the eye in terms of the potential of GTL fuels and the nearly endless supply of energy they can provide.

DB
 

Drivbiwire

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I don't think it is 'easy' to grow the required amounts of biomass, but such a process would not require high-grade cultured plants but would probably work well with President Bushes 'switchgrass'.
Kentucky Bluegrass, Corn stalks, Soy plants after the bean is recovered for other uses, Cane, switch grass, rapeseed, wheat stalks after the germ is recovered, raw sewage, animal waste (Cattle, swine, chicken droppings), Algea...feel free to add to the list.

DB
 

10then34

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Drivbiwire said:
Don't discount coal...Coal is simply the first step, without an inexpensive and readily available source TODAY GTL or biofuels have no future.
I am not discounting it, I am just trying to point to some of the problems that come along with using coal.

Just imagine what would happen to the issues in the middle east if we stopped importing petroleum in 15 years.
Ahem, nothing. Development in China and India will lead to such a voracious appetite for petro products that the US dropping out of that particular market won't be a major problem for the sheikhs.

The other day, I heard a report about Chinas activities in Sudan. As one of the sudanese goverment officials put it so eloquently 'china doesn't interfere with our internal affairs in Darfour so we prefer to do business with them rather than the west'.
 

10then34

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Drivbiwire said:
Kentucky Bluegrass, Corn stalks, Soy plants after the bean is recovered for other uses, Cane, switch grass, rapeseed, wheat stalks after the germ is recovered, raw sewage, animal waste (Cattle, swine, chicken droppings), Algea...feel free to add to the list.
All very bulky substates with a low energy density.

Just to have a reference here, the Dakota Gasification Plant makes 150mil cubic feet of synthetic natural gas per day (which is a tiny fraction of the US natural gas market). In order to do so about 16.000tons of Lignite have to be mined and fed into the plant daily. Now, to make things easier they put the plant right at the edge of an open pit mine so most of the transfer is done by conveyor belts, if you had to transport it by train it would make at least two 104 car trains. Now, all of the bio feedstocks have a far lower carbon density than coal, just getting all the material to the plant would require huge logistics. There is a reason combines separate the kernels from the stalks and chaff, rather than transporting all of it to a central processing plant.
 

MrMopar

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Drivbiwire said:
Given the fact the US has a projected 250 year supply of coal if it were to be used as a sole source for fuels.
Let's fix this statement. The USA has a projected 250 year supply of coal at present usage numbers. Those usage numbers were probably quoted in the late 90s, so they're even higher as we chat about it. Start digging up more coal for the power plants that will be constructed and come online in the next 20 years, and also try using big numbers of it for liquid transportation fuels, and I'm pretty sure the projected supply shrinks a bit.
 

Dennis P Roth

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More coming.

nortones2 said:
Shell have been making GTL in Malaysia for 10 years, and selling into the Thai market (as a blend with conventional diesel) for at least 5: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_3_6/ai_82780630 On sale in Germany in 2004, again as a proportion: http://www-static.shell.com/static/shellgasandpower-en/downloads/what_is_gas_to_liquids/gtl4.pdf
There should be more GTL diesel blend heading to Europe later this year from Sasol-Chevron. I don't know what name it will be marketed under. The first shipment from the Oryx GTL project is more than a year late, http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=106850

Work has begun at the Escravos GTL plant in Nigeria, but given the political instability and violence in Nigeria, no telling when that plant will be done.

Sasol-Chevron GTL diesel Properties, FWIW
http://www.sasolchevron.com/gtl_fuel_comparison.htm
 

nortones2

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Glad to hear the Nigerians are going to use the methane, rather than let it burn off! There's a lot of gas wasted, which is where the GTL really scores.
 

lovemybug

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Now if only we could harness all the methane released by cow and pig farming. I bet that would make a good dent in whatever shortage there might be.
 

TDIMeister

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I attended a seminar on Monday presented by Chief Executive and Board Member of the German Petroleum Industry Association. Clearly just by association to such a group some might cry bias, and that was my expectation going into the seminar, but I did come out of it with some insightful things.

One of the key points was that the "Dieselization" in Europe, with new Diesel passenger car registrations tipping over the 50% point, combined with the large gasoline demand in North America, is creating a large global imbalance of fuel supply. Part of this stems from the fact that a given quantity of crude oil can only yield a certain amount of the distillates that produce gasoline, Diesel fuel, heating oil, etc., before requiring secondary processes to increase production of a desired product. Relative to yield, the disproportionate middle-distillate demand (which includes Diesel fuel, heating oil, kerosene, jet fuel, etc.) in Europe, and the counterpart disproportionate gasoline demand in North America, means that massive amounts of gasoline are already being imported from Europe to the US, and massive amounts of Diesel, heating oil and jet fuel imported to Europe from -- get this -- the US and Russia.

Further Dieselization in Europe, the speaker argued, increases risks to supply shocks due to trade dependencies. Furthermore, the speaker stated that beyond a certain point of Diesel/gasoline passenger car registrations in Europe, CO2 emissions, from a well-to-wheel analysis, actually worsen, because the improved CO2 of the Diesel share of the fleet are offset with greater energy input required at refining to increase Diesel yields from crude oil through secondary processes. He stated that the current state is near that CO2 break even point, and that further Dieselization beyond that point will be worse off for aggregate, well-to-wheel CO2 production, and greater pre-tax cost for Diesel fuel. He said in the absence of interference from taxation, Diesel/gasoline market-shares should reach a well-to-wheel CO2-optimal point in Europe, and level out.

The speaker also (almost expectedly) did not have kind words for so-called "first-generation" bio-fuels like corn-based ethanol and rapeseed Biodiesel. In fact he presented a bit of a doom-and-gloom scenario of meeting the recently agreed-upon CO2 and Biofuels directive for the EU, based on current and forecast bio-fuel technology and capacity.

However, he did express somewhat unexpected optimism and praise for "second-generation" tailor-designed fuels based on the Fischer-Tropsch process which would be truly feedstock-neutral, and of which
coal, natural gas and whole Biomass from any plant- and animal sources would all be complementarily used. The consistency and properties of the tailor-made fuels would enable new innovations for engine designs that further improve efficiency and reduce emissions.

He did reserve caution that Fischer-Tropsch itself requires energy input, and if analyzed on a CO2-output basis, well-to-wheel CO2 would be highly dependent not only on the feedstock used, but also on the means in which the energy input is derived. With still a large proportion of the German electric-grid powered by brown-coal plants, this would be less than ideal. But with a larger mix coming from nuclear power and renewables, the analysis looks more favourable.

Hydrogen was mentioned in passing but I got the impression that the speaker admitted that hydrogen would play a part of a matrix of energy carriers, especially out in the longer term.
 

Drivbiwire

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Dave with all the windmills popping up on the German hills lately Power won't be a problem in another 5 years :D

As I have mentioned, Solar + Wind + Hydro + Nuclear + Bio2GTL = A total solution to energy needs. And as other have said we need to curtail the consumption rates in order to strike a balance of availability and sustainability.

I am personally starting to look at a solar system for my house where I can feed the grid during my non peak hours (middle of the day) and also have it act as my power reservoir for peak hours. In the short term it will be hard to break even but as energy prices continue to rise (never a constant) my projected break even point gets closer with every rise in the cost per Kwh.

Nice write up!
DB
 

Smokerr

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One of the Gulf states has made a huge investment in GTL there. They felt that there was a huge suprlus of natural gas, and they could do far better making it into a liquid.

Better yield all the way around for them, and shipping it and then converting it made no sense (as they have all the gas they need to do it, as well as a bonus to their economy et al.)
 

10then34

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heno said:
These guys turn anything (darn near) into diesel fuel:

http://www.choren.com/en/energy_for_all/sundiesel/

Mike
If I understand it correctly, they are in the process of building a test-bed for their process. Sounds like one of these companies that live on development grants from the EU and german goverments (the company is the equivalent of a LLC in the US. so their money is not raised in the stock market but rather by either very wealthy investors or goverment seed money)

Fundamentally their process is nothing new except for a intelligent combination of various gasification processes in an attempt to deal with the tar and coke issues of gasification plants.

I am looking forward to the day that they have this thing running for a year or two producing marketable product without eating up one of its gasifiers.

Having lived off the teat of goverment funding myself, I also see a distinct possibility that this enterprise grinds to a screeching halt after a couple of the key engineers take better paying R+D jobs in the petro industry.
 
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