$300 350,000 mile tdi hydrolocked???

Hey to all. I posted below about a non-running tdi that I just picked up. I suspected it was locked up, but wasn't sure. Today was the first chance I've had to look at the car. I pulled the valve cover and the lifters looked good from what I could tell. I was able to rotate the crank almost 90 degrees back and forth. Next, I pulled the glow plugs, and #3 was completely soaked. I went ahead and tested each one, and they are all good. Next, I tried to turn the crank by hand again, and I was able to. Black, liquid death sprayed out and covered everything...well, almost everything, but I was excited to see that the engine was at least not seized. After gently releasing a little more midnight juice by hand, I was dumb enough to cover the glow plug opening with some rags and I thought I'd just bump the starter with the key, so I did. Ok, so this is what really DID cover everything with darkness. I have honestly never seen anything make that much of a mess...never. I stopped and cleaned up everything except for the engine compartment. So....

How do I properly empty this cylinder and not make everything look like nighttime?

Also, what could have caused this hydrolocked condition? I am assuming this is oil/diesel and not water, but I honestly don't know yet. PO said he drove it to work one day and all was normal. When he came back out after work, the car would not start. What do I need to look at here? This is my first diesel. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!!

Oh yeah...this is a 99' ALH.

The easiest way I can think of is to stick a straw or flexible tube of some kind and vacuum the oil out when that cylinder is at TDC. The vacuuming would be done with a small hand pump like mightyvac.

The residual shouldn't be a problem.

The next thing is to figure out what happened. It could be several things, but you can also be assured that it did not happen by magic, which the detail-less explanation given by the previous owner would have you believe.

So the turbocharger could have let go (most common) and the excess oil is from the impeller side. That would mean the entire intake tract is full of oil and possibly turbocharger schrapnel.

It could be other things as well, such as a catastrophic head problem that let that much in, but without careful investigation, it is impossible to determine over the internet.

Have you checked the oil level?

Is there a TDI guru close by? You will need those services for sure, even if only on a consultant level to guide your efforts.

Cheers, and good luck with this.

PH

Powder Hound said:

The easiest way I can think of is to stick a straw or flexible tube of some kind and vacuum the oil out when that cylinder is at TDC. The vacuuming would be done with a small hand pump like mightyvac.
The residual shouldn't be a problem.
The next thing is to figure out what happened. It could be several things, but you can also be assured that it did not happen by magic, which the detail-less explanation given by the previous owner would have you believe.
So the turbocharger could have let go (most common) and the excess oil is from the impeller side. That would mean the entire intake tract is full of oil and possibly turbocharger schrapnel.
It could be other things as well, such as a catastrophic head problem that let that much in, but without careful investigation, it is impossible to determine over the internet.
Have you checked the oil level?
Is there a TDI guru close by? You will need those services for sure, even if only on a consultant level to guide your efforts.
Cheers, and good luck with this.
PH

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Hi! Thanks for joining in. Yes, I assumed I was not getting all of the information from the PO, and for $300, what could I really say? The car has nearly new tires, and a manual transmission that my 2.0 wagon would love to try on. I suspected possible serious issues with the car when I got it, but this is my first diesel, as I mentioned. I have no neighborhood TDI specialists that I am aware of, and that's ok. I get around under the hood fairly well, but I am at the base of the TDI learning curve at this point. I do have a Bentley manual though!

Yes, I did check the oil, and while it's not full, it is low on the stick and black as coal. Whether it helps any or not, it makes me hopeful that the PO didn't pour some fresh oil in to mask an 'empty' condition.

Thanks for the well wishes.

mk4mr,

Well, you probably don't want to hear this, but hear goes.
Pull the motor, find another one and install. God knows
what happened to the current one, but whatever happened
to it, it's SERIOUS, and will undoubtedly need a major rebuild.
Think learning curve.

At least with it out of the car you can take it apart a lot easier
than trying to do it in the vehicle. You need to talk WildChild into
a road trip.

FYI, gasser and diesel engine transmissions are geared different.

jmodge said:

FYI, gasser and diesel engine transmissions are geared different.

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Yeah, they're not interchangeable. Ratios are all different. I'm not even sure if they mate up together.

jmodge said:

FYI, gasser and diesel engine transmissions are geared different.

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Yes, so I've heard. I was hoping that the diesel gear would help keep my poor 2.0 from running at 4000rpms on the interstate. I'd rather salvage this engine and drive this car for a while though.

Anyone close to Middle Tennessee have an good ALH handy?

sisyphus said:

Yeah, they're not interchangeable. Ratios are all different. I'm not even sure if they mate up together.

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I was under the impression that they would bolt right up, but I could have been misinformed. I know I read somewhere that people were doing the swap, but I don't guess that means it's true. I, personally, cannot verify this either way.

https://www.zelek.com/diagram_charts/diagramlist.htm


Here's a reference for the various tranny codes. I suspect that
they may well bolt up. And it probably would solve your high
revs problem. Worth studying the ratios, though it might be slow
to get up to speed. Getting it going in 1st might be difficult, then just
rev away. Or just swap 5th gear. Might work!

Rrusse11 said:

https://www.zelek.com/diagram_charts/diagramlist.htm


Here's a reference for the various tranny codes. I suspect that
they may well bolt up. And it probably would solve your high
revs problem. Worth studying the ratios, though it might be slow
to get up to speed. Getting it going in 1st might be difficult, then just
rev away. Or just swap 5th gear. Might work!

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I have heard of doing just the gear swap, but I'd rather not brake open the trans if I don't have to. I suppose that if I had just the gears for the swap, I would consider it, but I'd much rather just stab a gearbox right in there...haha. I think its a little work to pull and re-install the gears...like lots of heat and/or a press. But, that's all another deal altogether. I want to see if this car will 'live again'. (without costing too much) There's something less satisfying about sinking $1500 into a car that you got for $300...LOL!

Doing just the 5th gear is relatively ez, there's a cover you remove to gain
access, a heat gun is enough heat, 100C is all you need.
No need to break the tranny apart.

I had one done "while I waited", took the tech a couple hours.
I'm sure the more experienced here can give you more details.
I went from a .658 > .717. Other options available.



A couple of sources available, I got mine on Ebay.uk for <$200.;
Here's the relevant thread;


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=503148

you could look here for an engine.

http://www.car-part.com/

mk4mr said:

I have heard of doing just the gear swap, but I'd rather not brake open the trans if I don't have to. I suppose that if I had just the gears for the swap, I would consider it, but I'd much rather just stab a gearbox right in there...haha. I think its a little work to pull and re-install the gears...like lots of heat and/or a press. But, that's all another deal altogether. I want to see if this car will 'live again'. (without costing too much) There's something less satisfying about sinking $1500 into a car that you got for $300...LOL!

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The trans will mate up to your 2.0. VW likes to keep some things the same to a certain degree. 4CYL trans will bolt up to any 4CYL engine (at least from mk2 to mk4 thats the extent of my experience). Same with 6CYL. I am using a '92 trans from my Corrado with a 2006 3.6 VR6 from a Passat, and my roommate is using a B4 TDI trans with a 1.8T engine from a MK4.

sisyphus said:

Yeah, they're not interchangeable. Ratios are all different. I'm not even sure if they mate up together.

Click to expand...

As mentioned they certainly will bolt up and the gearing is sought after by many other gas enthusiasts because of the "better" gearing. A 2.slo might be a little under-powered for higher gearing, but it'd make a nice highway setup.

To the OP - empty the intercooler tubing, cover the glow plug openings and crank away. It's possible there are bent rods, but it's worth a shot. I'd try to fire it up with the intake tubing removed to prevent additional oil from entering the intake and see how it runs.

Rrusse11 said:

Doing just the 5th gear is relatively ez, there's a cover you remove to gain
access, a heat gun is enough heat, 100C is all you need.
No need to break the tranny apart.

I had one done "while I waited", took the tech a couple hours.
I'm sure the more experienced here can give you more details.
I went from a .658 > .717. Other options available.



A couple of sources available, I got mine on Ebay.uk for <$200.;
Here's the relevant thread;


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=503148

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That's really good information! Thank you!

mk3 said:

you could look here for an engine.
http://www.car-part.com/

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Hello! Thank you!

Almost1 said:

The trans will mate up to your 2.0. VW likes to keep some things the same to a certain degree. 4CYL trans will bolt up to any 4CYL engine (at least from mk2 to mk4 thats the extent of my experience). Same with 6CYL. I am using a '92 trans from my Corrado with a 2006 3.6 VR6 from a Passat, and my roommate is using a B4 TDI trans with a 1.8T engine from a MK4.

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Yes! That's kinda what I've heard as far as interchangeability. I do find it interesting that you have that year transmission mated to your 06'. What is the reason?

gforce1108 said:

As mentioned they certainly will bolt up and the gearing is sought after by many other gas enthusiasts because of the "better" gearing. A 2.slo might be a little under-powered for higher gearing, but it'd make a nice highway setup.
To the OP - empty the intercooler tubing, cover the glow plug openings and crank away. It's possible there are bent rods, but it's worth a shot. I'd try to fire it up with the intake tubing removed to prevent additional oil from entering the intake and see how it runs.

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Thanks for the confirmation. I was wondering the same thing as far as the 2.0 power with the lower RPMs of the diesel geared 02j, but I just feel strange running down the interstate at 4,000 rpms. Maybe the 2.0's were built to run high rpm's, but it still seems like they would fair better, long term, if they weren't wound up so high. If I only did local driving, around town, I wouldn't bother, but I do some interstate driving, so if I'm gonna make this 2.0 last 350,000....haha...I mean, it could happen, right?

I disconnected the lower piping from the intercooler and drilled a small hole in the bottom of the intercooler to drain it.(Thanks ThomasEXOVCDS). I'll plug after it has had plenty of time to drain. Looks like there was about 12 oz. of oil in the intercooler. I filled a regular sized soda can. With the glow plugs removed, I turned the engine over for maybe 15 seconds. I don't know how long I should have done it, but that is what I did. Oh...also....I removed the lines to and from the injection pump because I was afraid of feeding fuel while cranking the engine. I'm going to post a related question about this below.

I have a question about the injector pump function. Please, anyone with information, feel free to chime in.

In an attempt to evacuate all excess fluid from the cylinders, I have been concerned about pumping more in while cranking. Is anyone willing to feed me some of the basics of injector pump operation while in the car? I pulled the in and out lines off of the pump at the filter (I think) in front of the coolant overflow. I am/was concerned about the pump being belt driven and feeding fuel while I cranked the engine. I also am aware that the injection pump has an electrical connector. Did I do right by remove the inlet/outlet lines from the pump? Is there enough store fuel that it will still pump much into the cylinders anyway? Is there a proper "known" way to crank this engine and not administer more fuel into it?

Secondly, does the injector pump maintain lots of pressure after the car in no longer running? If an injector stuck open after the car was shut off, could the cylinder be flooded by residual fuel in the injector pump? Thoughts? Teach me something about this, please.

Didn’t need to do all that work with the Injection pump.
All you had to do was disconnect the 12v wire that goes to the fuel cutoff solenoid and crank to your hearts content........no fuel will be injected into the cylinders.

csstevej said:

Didn’t need to do all that work with the Injection pump.
All you had to do was disconnect the 12v wire that goes to the fuel cutoff solenoid and crank to your hearts content........no fuel will be injected into the cylinders.

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Ok, that's great advice...I'll have to read up on that. Diesel is new to me!
Thanks for the info, really!

No problem.
That’s what this site is for.........remember we were all newbie’s in the beginning ��

So the motor turns over ok? Well that's a good sign.
May be a turbo failure then, pumping oil into the intake.
If it happens while running, you get a runaway engine.
I believe a uniquely turbo diesel occurrence.

Have you checked the oil level with the dipstick?

Rrusse11 said:

So the motor turns over ok? Well that's a good sign.
May be a turbo failure then, pumping oil into the intake.
If it happens while running, you get a runaway engine.
I believe a uniquely turbo diesel occurrence.

Have you checked the oil level with the dipstick?

Click to expand...

I have heard about the runaway condition, but I do not fully understand what it is. This car has an EGR delete and I don't know if it's true, but I heard this delete makes the runaway condition possible, or more possible likely. I don't know if that's true or not.

Without the glow plugs in, the engine turns over very well. The valve train inside the valve cover is really clean, with zero sludge, and no damage to the lifters that I can tell. Cam lobes look very good in my opinion. T-belt also looks recent. The back side of the belt still has 'texture to it and is not slick. There are no lines and no cracks. Teeth look really good. I doubt that any are missing.

Yes, I have checked the oil level, and it is showing on the stick. What I am not sure of is what level it is truly at. The dipstick tube is a very thick/stiff piece of doubly thick rubber tubing. It is very rigid and holds the dipstick in place very tightly. I do not know if it is exactly the right length to show accurate level or not, but it seems to be close at least.

ALH ejection pumps are essentially two in one, a low pressure suction side and a high-pressure side that feeds the injectors. As mentioned, unhook the solenoid to stop fuel from being injected. Not advisable to unhook lines As you can eventually run the pump dry. The pump requires fuel for lubrication and cooling.
A runaway condition on a diesel is when motor oil is introduced to a cylinder and compression ignites it. the amount of oil causes the engine to run at a high rpm until ignition can’t keep up with the volume of oil. The piston cannot compress oil, therefore you end up with what is termed Hydro lock, resulting in internal damage.

Oil is either introduced directly to a cylinder or to the intake tract. It’s easy to find which way by checking your intake tract for excess of oil first, most common way on an a OH. Generally buy a failed turbo. Google some of these terms and you can get more information

In a nutshell, you have a major issue. Your options are what is suggested in post number four, or pull the head in the car to view the cylinder in question.
As far as the dipstick, which you can concern yourself with after diagnosis and repair, they’re inexpensive and online vendors as well as NAPA carries them. They snap out and back in to the block.

With that much oil in the I/C pipe the odds are your turbo failed. Remove the intake piping to it and check to see what the play is like, and use an inspection mirror. It's usually obvious.

DO NOT START THE CAR with a blown turbo; it will run away again, likely immediately. Unfortunately the odds of internal damage (e.g. a bent rod) are very high.

I'm dropping in for a moment to add a little Wednesday update. After work today, I pulled all of the glow plugs and covered the holes and cranked the engine quite a bit. It appears that there was fluid in all cylinders, but #3 had been the worst. After putting the glow plugs back in, I decided to go for broke and tried to start it. It actually started! It was a little 'bumpy', but it actually idled for a good 12 seconds or so and then stumbled and died. I was able to immediately start it back again, but this time it was shorter lived at maybe 5 or 6 seconds. After that, the battery was just tired, and I had to charge it some. I was never able to restart it, but it was starting to get dark, and I decided that I was happy for the day. Even though I couldn't get it started again, it seems to turn rotate ok...from what little I know of diesel engines. I'll probably need to buy a battery, because I just don't think this one can handle much of a load. I am seeing 3 codes now... P0380, P1256, & P1246. Sorry for the generic fault codes, but that's all I have by the way of diagnostics. I'll have to eventually get VCDS, but until then, that's what I have.
The fuel gauge connector at the tank is not plugged in because there is a 4 pin connector on this pump, but only a 2 pin plug on the harness. I haven't had the time to research which pins on the actual fuel pump are for the level switch, so I don't know if there's a drop of fuel in the tank or not. I'll have to add some tomorrow afternoon.

So, although I know it doesn't mean ultimate success....I am still pleased that the car did run under its own power for a little bit.

Thanks to Wildchild for patiently tolerating the random text explosions...

Like Genesis said, STOP! You don't know what the problem is.
You're probably just filling the cylinders up again with oil.
And run the risk of greater damage, if you haven't already caused it.
If your lucky, it's a blown journal bearing on the turbo, so all you're doing
is pumping oil into the intake.

Keep it up without diagnosis and you'll definitely need another motor.


https://www.idparts.com/oil-dipstick-tube-a4-alh-p-527.html


Here's the dipstick, $5, order that, get the right battery from a VW dealer, and take a deep breath.